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RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:55:17 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Those were tactical games. Once you get above those scales, the battles can be treated operationaly.


Actually Terrible Swift Sword (and the following titles: A Gleam of Bayonets', Bloody April, Drive on Washington, Pea Ridge, Rebel Sabers, and Wilson's Creek are all part of the Great Battles of the American Civil War produced by SPI from 1976 - 1980) are grand tactical, regimental-level simulations during the civil war. Each hex ranges from 100 to 200 yards (91 - 182 meters) and there is ranged musket and rifle fire as well as ranged cannon fire.


TSS was at 120 yards; GoB was at 125 yards; BA was at 115 yards.

Meanwhile, West End Games Shiloh was at 190 yards; Chickamauga was at 270 yards. Significantly larger scale.

quote:

Likewise Wellington's Victory is a grand tactical simulation at 100 yards with each unit a battalion.


OSS Napoleon at Leizig was at 480 meters. Far larger.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
And, of course, Civil War battles had no such formations as well. West End Games' Shiloh and Chickamauga games had no such tactical features. Plus, both were in very heavily wooded terrain, blunting the need for ranges.


You must not understand how the Civil War was fought, of course both sides used formations, both line and column that was standard. I can't believe you have never seen a painting of Pickett's charge.


They did not use square or column as a combat formation (only for movement).

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
And my Soviet Union 1941 and Germany 1945 games are at 50km/hex, corps/army scale. They simulate those campaigns as well if not better than anything.


Nope, Warplan has that beat I am afraid.


I don't know anything about Warplan, but that's very unlikely.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1893814

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Even naval warfare can be done if properly constrained. Find a better simulation of Pearl Harbor that the one that comes with TOAW. Naval warfare is a big subject and we're not fully there yet. But we will be.


I know your not serious. The obvious one that comes to mind is War in the Pacific Admirals Edition.


You can't be serious.

https://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-site/pearl-harbor-1941

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 6/18/2021 3:59:17 AM >


_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 31
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 6:00:10 AM   
cathar1244

 

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I like how the links to Ralph's blog end up in China. Apparently someone there liked the domain name.

Cheers

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 32
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 9:23:23 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I know your not serious. The obvious one that comes to mind is War in the Pacific Admirals Edition.



One of these days I'll get up the nerve to buy that one.


I bought War in the Pacific years ago and played for about an hour before realising that I'm not interested enough in patrols and spare parts and things for me to enjoy it.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 33
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 9:26:18 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


You can't be serious.

https://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-site/pearl-harbor-1941


With the right events you could probably use this map to "simulate" the holiday I took on Oahu with my parents in 2001. Only one counter. One hour turns. VPs awarded for converting various hexes. Important to bring your counter back to your supply point in Honolulu once per day or movement will be greatly reduced. You'd probably want to use rail hexes to simulate bus routes.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/18/2021 9:27:04 AM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 34
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 9:33:33 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

...

I bought War in the Pacific years ago and played for about an hour before realising that I'm not interested enough in patrols and spare parts and things for me to enjoy it.



Can't believe you did not have hours of enjoyment playing Nimitz assigning individual pilots to squadrons. How many nights must Nimitz have spent wondering which of Jim Doe or John Doe was more better suited to a fighter-bomber squadron. Not to mention individually loading each landing ship before an invasion.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 35
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 9:40:20 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Even naval warfare can be done if properly constrained. Find a better simulation of Pearl Harbor that the one that comes with TOAW. Naval warfare is a big subject and we're not fully there yet. But we will be.


I know your not serious. The obvious one that comes to mind is War in the Pacific Admirals Edition.


You can't be serious.



You guys should accept that different people like different things and have different understandings of what they want of their games. For some Memoir 44 is a great game, for some the OCS series is a great game. Both can enjoy their game and feel it's the better at doing something.

Having said that, to argue that they both are simulations of operational warfare is a stretch. Yes, the same units are on the map, yes, there's a map and yes, there are structures of decision making and battle resolution. One, as good a game as it is, is not a simulation of operational warfare.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 36
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 11:42:28 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

...

I bought War in the Pacific years ago and played for about an hour before realising that I'm not interested enough in patrols and spare parts and things for me to enjoy it.



Can't believe you did not have hours of enjoyment playing Nimitz assigning individual pilots to squadrons. How many nights must Nimitz have spent wondering which of Jim Doe or John Doe was more better suited to a fighter-bomber squadron. Not to mention individually loading each landing ship before an invasion.


Seriously? It gets down to that level of detail?



_____________________________

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 37
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 11:52:12 AM   
Zovs


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@Lobster: Yes, its pretty insane, too much micromanagement for me. (WitE2 is just about right for me)

@jmlima: Yes, your correct. My main point is that no one game system can be all for everything, eventually something in the system breaks down. At one point I owned over 500 board war games covering everything from single man action to armies and from 5 meters a hex to 100 mile hexes and covering combat from 1066 to 2100. Literally no one system can be all that and its good to have diversity in war games with some specializing in one topic. For example War in the East 2 is the most realistic division level operation east front gaming system out there. Steel Panthers is still the best squad level game and JTS are the best and most detailed operational games out there especially the the Campaign series which covers warfare from 1700 to 2025. In my opinion of course.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 38
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 12:44:36 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
For some Memoir 44 is a great game,


For me right now it's a good game because my son is old enough to enjoy the little plastic pieces without swallowing them and the movable hex tiles without breaking them. The cards are no good as those would get destroyed still.

A few years yet before we can start to look at playing it.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/18/2021 12:45:47 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 39
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 1:25:36 PM   
cathar1244

 

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@Ben

How did your Excel game work out -- encounter any limitations on numbers of graphical objects that could be used?

Cheers

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 40
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 2:35:52 PM   
golden delicious


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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

@Ben

How did your Excel game work out -- encounter any limitations on numbers of graphical objects that could be used?

Cheers


Graphical objects...? I think you're overestimating how sophisticated I got with this thing.

Attached is a screenshot; the numbers mark the position of the unit on the map, then conditional formatting colours it red or blue to show the faction, with three shades of grey to show rough unit strength (everyone here is pretty fresh so you don't see the faded grey for weaker units). The cell borders display unit facings which are drawn when the unit turns, though this is pretty hit-and-miss: you'll note that when 33rd turned to its left to face 1st, it erased the frontage of 2nd which is also facing it to the north. As a result you sometimes need to refer to the OOB list off to the right to understand what's actually going on. The player uses the controls to move, turn or attack with the unit in the active cell, and clicks to select a different unit. It's not designed to be used by a rogue player so there's nothing to stop you selecting a unit from the other force in the middle of your turn.

The main thing here is the AI, which is a series of "if" statements telling each AI unit how to act depending on what units are deployed around it. In this scenario, blue (me) has refused the eastern flank while pushing a number of reserve regiments into the western flank, with a view to enveloping red (ai) while avoiding a collapse on the other end of the line. The AI is able to follow up to attack but, but not smart enough to flank or to shift reserves over to the weak part of the line (you can see the second line on red's right is just dumbly following up rather than shifting over as a player would). In fact, when Blue's flank move caused 41st to become isolated from the rest of red's line, the AI's response to an isolated unit was to pull it back to safety, which here looks like the unit is fleeing the battlefield. I could theoretically add more "if" statements to look for friendly units to either side to help it consolidate the line.

The setting I had in mind was more like a hoplite engagement, so everyone is melee, and there is no terrain whatsoever. I was going to expand it either to be a beer and pretzels strat game or to include ranged units, but I lost interest.

The point of this exercise was twofold:
1) it was a cool way to learn VBA, which you never know might one day be useful
2) work was quiet, and I thought having Excel up in front of me would look more like I was busy than something more obvious

I'm actually a lot happier with my Excel RPG... that's actually a complete game, where the player explores three levels of procedurally generated dungeon, collecting treasure and XP on the way to the exit (or more often untimely death).




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/18/2021 2:45:06 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 41
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 2:41:42 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I don't know anything about Warplan, but that's very unlikely.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1893814


Are you implying that a single hotseat run by the designer demonstrates that a scenario is a good simulation?

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 42
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:01:41 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13027
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


You can't be serious.

https://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-site/pearl-harbor-1941


With the right events you could probably use this map to "simulate" the holiday I took on Oahu with my parents in 2001. Only one counter. One hour turns. VPs awarded for converting various hexes. Important to bring your counter back to your supply point in Honolulu once per day or movement will be greatly reduced. You'd probably want to use rail hexes to simulate bus routes.


But what about Waikiki Beach? You need a naval unit for your surfing. (Don't tell us you didn't surf, Ben.)

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 43
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:03:07 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13027
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I don't know anything about Warplan, but that's very unlikely.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1893814


Are you implying that a single hotseat run by the designer demonstrates that a scenario is a good simulation?


I think it's a pretty good sign, provided it was an honest test.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 44
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:04:08 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

But what about Waikiki Beach? You need a naval unit for your surfing. (Don't tell us you didn't surf, Ben.)


I'm not really much of a sportsman and I was even less of one when I was 17.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 45
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:06:28 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13027
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

My main point is that no one game system can be all for everything, eventually something in the system breaks down.


But is there any middle ground between "TOAW must remain as it has always been." and "be all for everything"? Is any topic expansion to be allowed at all?

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 46
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:06:39 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


I think it's a pretty good sign, provided it was an honest test.


I disagree.

According to legend, the game of Rugby was invented during a football match when a player decided to pick up the ball and run with instead of kicking it. This was obviously successful to him but you weren't "supposed" to do that in football (this being real football, not the American kind).

A player picking up your scenario may take a look at it and decide to do something he's not "supposed" to do, which in fact will completely turn the scenario on its head. Until you've run blind playtests (that is, with two players who are not the designer), you cannot call the scenario ready.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 47
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:12:20 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

A player picking up your scenario may take a look at it and decide to do something he's not "supposed" to do, which in fact will completely turn the scenario on its head. Until you've run blind playtests (that is, with two players who are not the designer), you cannot call the scenario ready.


So what? Isn't that what it should do? You don't want it to produce the same result regardless of player action. You only want the historical results if both sides were making the historical desisions and were equally matched. That's what that test was, more or less. But readers can take it however they like. For certain it modeled history very well in that test.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 48
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:13:14 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5317
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

But is there any middle ground between "TOAW must remain as it has always been." and "be all for everything"? Is any topic expansion to be allowed at all?


How about, fix the bugs before you do anything?

... ultimately Matrix owes us nothing and can take their products wherever they want. But please fix the bugs.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/18/2021 3:41:30 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 49
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:14:06 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So what? Isn't that what it should do? You don't want it to produce the same result regardless of player action.


No, but you want it to produce feasible results.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 50
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:32:13 PM   
cathar1244

 

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@Ben

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I've messed around with Excel using a wargame map as the background and using graphical objects (the counters) to move around on the background, as a way of "digitizing" old paper wargames (or designing new games). Has potential, maybe.

Cheers

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 51
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 3:38:00 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5317
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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

@Ben

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I've messed around with Excel using a wargame map as the background and using graphical objects (the counters) to move around on the background, as a way of "digitizing" old paper wargames (or designing new games). Has potential, maybe.

Cheers


Aren't there freeware products available for this- where you can drag and drop tiles around the map, roll dice etc., but the players are responsible for enforcing rules? I'm sure I've seen a couple.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 52
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 4:04:57 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13027
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

But is there any middle ground between "TOAW must remain as it has always been." and "be all for everything"? Is any topic expansion to be allowed at all?


How about, fix the bugs before you do anything?

... ultimately Matrix owes us nothing and can take their products wherever they want. But please fix the bugs.


What difference does it make when they are fixed so long as they are fixed before the release?

If every piddling thing has priority over new features, there will never be any new features. You can't jump back and forth between things as you code. Especialy for big items - like new features.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 53
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 4:07:31 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13027
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So what? Isn't that what it should do? You don't want it to produce the same result regardless of player action.


No, but you want it to produce feasible results.


How do you know what's feasible if you take a non-historical path? It's the historical test that matters. That's the only test that can be correlated with history.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 54
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 4:11:35 PM   
cathar1244

 

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@Ben

Mmm, there is a java-based one that is somewhat popular. Can't recall the name of it at the moment.

Cheers

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 55
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 4:23:16 PM   
biddrafter2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

@Ben

Mmm, there is a java-based one that is somewhat popular. Can't recall the name of it at the moment.

Cheers


I've always wanted to mess with Triple A but have never had the time. https://triplea-game.org/

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 56
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 5:14:43 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5317
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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What difference does it make when they are fixed so long as they are fixed before the release?


The release has bugs in it.

I'm not a developer- but I'm nevertheless aware that developers are supposed to regularly regression test the software they're working on to iron out bugs as and when they arise- not later when you've finished doing the fun stuff.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/18/2021 5:18:49 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 57
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 5:20:09 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5317
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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

How do you know what's feasible if you take a non-historical path? It's the historical test that matters. That's the only test that can be correlated with history.


So if a scenario produces historical results from historical decisions, then ipso facto any other outcome is also a historical possibility?

This is a useful tool for proving all sorts of impossible things.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 58
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 5:26:25 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13027
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What difference does it make when they are fixed so long as they are fixed before the release?


The release has bugs in it.

I'm not a developer- but I'm nevertheless aware that developers are supposed to regularly regression test the software they're working on to iron out bugs as and when they arise- not later when you've finished doing the fun stuff.


Sure. You fix the bugs that crop up in the thing you are working on as they come up. But legacy bugs that are in other parts of the code have to be fixed without that benefit (especially if they were made by Ralph!). There is no benefit to prioritizing them.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 6/18/2021 5:31:01 PM >


_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 59
RE: Message for Ralph Tricky - 6/18/2021 5:30:22 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13027
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

How do you know what's feasible if you take a non-historical path? It's the historical test that matters. That's the only test that can be correlated with history.


So if a scenario produces historical results from historical decisions, then ipso facto any other outcome is also a historical possibility?

This is a useful tool for proving all sorts of impossible things.


Ben, if you want to do more tests on it, feel free. I'm satisfied that it can reproduce history, given the historical inputs. What is feasible outside history is unknowable. Note that I do have a couple of tests done in that very vein: See the Early version test, and the Fully Motorized version test.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 60
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