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Tech guide update - 6/9/2021 8:39:43 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Shameless autopromotion - my guide on Steam concerning research for allies got a small update. Although there were not that many changes to research, I decided to revisit the guide and make it more up to date, for patch 1.11.

If you are interested, it's available here. It's also available directly via Steam client.

If you spot any issue, either a typo or just a blatant lie, please let me know.

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/9/2021 9:09:02 PM   
CaesarAug

 

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Excellent, very good of you, lad!
Did you make an Axis tech guide?
If you did, have you got a link? I must have missed it…

Thanks so much!

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/9/2021 9:56:50 PM   
EarlyDoors


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As always a great read

In addition to cheaper replacements, production technology also provides cheaper reinforcements and slightly lower national morale loss


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RE: Tech guide update - 6/10/2021 9:43:55 AM   
wobbleguts

 

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Great work!

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/10/2021 10:11:33 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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Nice guide - now get on work for the Axis version? ;)

The only claim I've found a bit odd is your claim that you shouldn't bother with Advanced Fighters as Soviets, because they do not produce in enough numbers relative to matter. But they produce 6, and that's only 2 fewer than Germany?


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RE: Tech guide update - 6/10/2021 11:21:13 AM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

Nice guide - now get on work for the Axis version? ;)

The only claim I've found a bit odd is your claim that you shouldn't bother with Advanced Fighters as Soviets, because they do not produce in enough numbers relative to matter. But they produce 6, and that's only 2 fewer than Germany?


If you don't have fighters as USSR you get hammered by German air.


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RE: Tech guide update - 6/10/2021 12:01:00 PM   
eriador08

 

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Depends if you play pbem or single player. In multiplayer i never found effective use for soviet air power until the game is decided anyway. Till arround 43 (if you even can stay in the game with russia) you better spend in AA tech and distribute those cheap upgrades. Some AA Units can be usefull too.

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/10/2021 7:13:51 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Eriador08, exactly this. To further elaborate, I will quote my older post from another thread:

quote:

> Are you saying you don't research advanced fighters for the Soviets?

Exactly that. There are several reasons:
1\. Unless for some reason Axis stops investing in AF tech, they will be always 1 level ahead of you. With some bad luck on USSR part, even two. And 1 level more is already a big difference. Combine it with good GER HQ's and high morale and Soviet fighters are on lost position for most of the War.
2\. You could mitigate it somehow if Russia had plenty of fighters (numerical superiority, as IRL). But they only get 3 if I remember correctly. At the same time, Germany has 6 (3 starting, 1 from DAK, 1 from Finland and Romania respectively). You will get outdamaged easily and quickly.
3\. In order to make it work, you also need Aerial Warfare tech, to enable 2 air missions per turn. So you have to spend additional 100 MPP's, and USSR doesn't have enough in the first place.
4\. Reparing aircraft is expensive, and especially in the beginning USSR will have to rebuy land units. Your fighters will be depleted for most of the time.

Going for AntiAir route is preferable, because:
1\. It's a cheaper tech (125 MPP)
2\. You can double chit it, so closing tech gap versus GER bombers is actually possible.
3\. Majority of your units can benefit from this tech and defend themselves somehow, especially with AA2.
4\. You can also upgrade forts, cities etc. granting even more defense against bombers.
5\. USSR can buy 6 AA units. Well placed they will make Luftwaffe's life a lot tougher. And they are cheap.

I really wish there were more options open for USSR in air context, but for now it's not the case. Russia is under tremendous pressure in this game in 1942 especially, unless Axis player diverted his forces elsewhere. There's no space to fool around.


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RE: Tech guide update - 6/10/2021 7:17:37 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

Did you make an Axis tech guide?
If you did, have you got a link? I must have missed it…


I don't play with cheats, I mean with Axis. Though to be honest, I recently started to do so, maybe in future I will prepare something. Though I believe baddies are more streamlined than Allies.

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/16/2021 2:06:26 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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Thanks for doing this.

I do US tech differently. On turn 1 I refund everything except Adv Ftr, chit 2 Ind Tech and 1 S&I. I would also 2 chit Ind Tech (and many other techs) all the way through the last lvl then refund the last chit. You guys can do the math for Ind Tech. There is no direct math for the other techs, but it's quite obvious to me the benefit is far more than the extra MPPs cost.

Funny enough Amphibious tech is not important to US. You would only ever need 1 more level and not in a hurry.

More guides like this is needed! People in the WWI forum have written a couple very good guides. I found them to be better done than what we did here in this forum.



< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/16/2021 2:08:39 PM >

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/16/2021 9:52:58 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

Thanks for doing this.

My pleasure. There will be more.

quote:

I do US tech differently. On turn 1 I refund everything except Adv Ftr, chit 2 Ind Tech and 1 S&I. I would also 2 chit Ind Tech (and many other techs) all the way through the last lvl then refund the last chit. You guys can do the math for Ind Tech. There is no direct math for the other techs, but it's quite obvious to me the benefit is far more than the extra MPPs cost.


Sounds very cookie-cutterish . Math should not be to hard to check out. Hm... But this S&I is quite a surprise. If I understand correctly, among Allies (same for Axis) only the highest S&I level counts. UK already starts with chit in S&I - so do you refund as UK and let US do the job, or you let both countries have it (to have more 'spotting' chance)? I believe (maybe mistakenly) that S&I bonus works only for countries at war, so for US it would be inactive for some time. This may be false, I don't remember where I read this.

/// Digression - does USSR benefit from S&I from UK/US? As uncooperative Major?

quote:

Funny enough Amphibious tech is not important to US. You would only ever need 1 more level and not in a hurry.
Amphib is quite cheap, you think lvl 1-2 is sufficient? Why?

quote:

People in the WWI forum have written a couple very good guides. I found them to be better done than what we did here in this forum.

Didn't know about it, but if yes, then shame on us.

< Message edited by Marcinos1985 -- 6/16/2021 10:09:28 PM >


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RE: Tech guide update - 6/16/2021 10:03:42 PM   
DrZom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

Funny enough Amphibious tech is not important to US. You would only ever need 1 more level and not in a hurry.



I think the extra levels make landings easier and help achieve objectives faster. No?

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/17/2021 2:23:46 AM   
Elessar2


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Yes, S&I is inactivated for inactive majors.

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/17/2021 2:48:34 AM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

But this S&I is quite a surprise. If I understand correctly, among Allies (same for Axis) only the highest S&I level counts. UK already starts with chit in S&I - so do you refund as UK and let US do the job, or you let both countries have it (to have more 'spotting' chance)? I believe (maybe mistakenly) that S&I bonus works only for countries at war, so for US it would be inactive for some time. This may be false, I don't remember where I read this.

/// Digression - does USSR benefit from S&I from UK/US? As uncooperative Major?

So there are 3 modifiers to research, Catch Up Bonus (A), Sharing (B), and S&I(C). (A) requires the bonus giver (who leads in tech) to be in war, and on the opposite side. So before war, Russia and US will benefit from German and Japanese techs that are higher but not vice versa. (B) requires both countries in war, on the same side and sharing (p.190 of the Manual lists who shares with who. It's different from cooperativeness). Russia shares with no one and is shared by no one. (C)S&I does not require the country to be in war to boost its own research, or do S&I spotting, but does require both countries fully mobilized (doesn't have to be directly at war with each other) for one to cancel the other's research bonus.

quote:

Amphib is quite cheap, you think lvl 1-2 is sufficient? Why?

US starts with Amphib lvl 1, which gives you 5 long range amphibious transports. Majority of the time I only cruise the LRs to landing site, thus the attack value and extra range has almost no value. Starting late 42 I may need more than 5 LRs, and only then I may need lvl 2, which gives 8 LRs. Of course it will be nice to have a higher lvl of Amphib tech, for a really tough amphib assault (I would rely on my navy and AF to soften up the target), but it's on the very bottom of my priority.

On the other hand, Japan will need Amphib lvl 3 before Pearl Harbor.

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/19/2021 1:57:32 AM >

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/18/2021 3:37:23 AM   
smckechnie

 

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I think that the US research towards S&I should be at a higher priority than Marcinos has it, but some of this is just personal preference based on Strategy being done.

Here is the logic. You put 2 chits towards S&I after Ind tech. Then another after you hit the first research level for S&I. Within a year you can have level 2 S&I. Because the US is not at war with anyone yet. The US base research advance per turn is now 7% per turn per chit probably for up to a year until Japan attacks. Anything with 2 chits towards it for research advances 14% per turn. Plus you get an increased chance for a research breakthrough. Go ahead and try it. US technology very quickly advances with this. Plus you have the added bonus that at level 2 S&I there is like a 4% chance each turn per axis unit for it being spotted. This spotting can help the Royal Navy even before the US joins the war.







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RE: Tech guide update - 6/18/2021 8:05:23 AM   
EarlyDoors


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

I think that the US research towards S&I should be at a higher priority than Marcinos has it, but some of this is just personal preference based on Strategy being done.

Here is the logic. You put 2 chits towards S&I after Ind tech. Then another after you hit the first research level for S&I. Within a year you can have level 2 S&I. Because the US is not at war with anyone yet. The US base research advance per turn is now 7% per turn per chit probably for up to a year until Japan attacks. Anything with 2 chits towards it for research advances 14% per turn. Plus you get an increased chance for a research breakthrough. Go ahead and try it. US technology very quickly advances with this.




very interesting

i have US S&I prioritised high but not quite as high as you suggest - maybe i should try it

quote:

Plus you have the added bonus that at level 2 S&I there is like a 4% chance each turn per axis unit for it being spotted. This spotting can help the Royal Navy even before the US joins the war.


i've never really thought about it before but does a non-mobilised USA reveal Axis units? after all - they could theoretically join the axis at this stage


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RE: Tech guide update - 6/18/2021 9:39:49 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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I am a bit puzzled to be honest. Please someone comment these doubts:

1. Only highest S&I level for a Side (Allies|Axis)counts. So if both US and UK have S&I lvl 2, you gain only 1% bonus (if GER has lower lvl, no bonus if equal). Therefore, research for UK and US may be perceived as 'wasted' in terms of research. I don't take spotting into account!
2. S&I only works for nations that are mobilized. That would be inline with what @Elessar2 wrote and I was under impression that's right. Correct or not? Because if not, then S&I for US is a waste unless they enter the War?
3. USSR doesn't benefit from UK/US S&I, as from research sharing between Allies - as an uncooperative major. But still they benefit from catchup bonus vs Germans while being still inactive?

I was playing under assumption, that all above are true, esp 1&2. This could even lead to not investing in S&I for US, unless I wanted additional spotting.

But if Scott is right and for 2 years US benefits from S&I and researches like crazy - not only by%, there is higher breakthrough chance - then that's the way to go. And guide will be updated.

Speaking about guides, seems that Research just cries for a guide of its own, especially that manual is outdated in some places (or was it updated recently?).

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/18/2021 10:28:18 AM   
EarlyDoors


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I believe this is the definitive thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4661678

Mods - pls can we get it pinned!

So, for the above scenario where USA has lvl 2 S&I but is not mobilized - they will benefit from avg 7% per turn but will have no effect upon mobilzed countries

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/18/2021 10:46:47 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Great link, thank you.

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/18/2021 1:23:12 PM   
smckechnie

 

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Thanks for the link.

A couple of other things to note, they did lower the research breakthrough chance to start hitting at lower than 45%. So, if the US has 2 to S&I by the end of 1940, On any tech that they are putting 2 chits towards they are getting a 14% chance of a research breakthrough per turn.

I have spoke with my brother Jackmck about a game that he was playing where the US intel did pick up and spot axis units when the US was not at war with the axis. Maybe he was mistaken, but I will be looking to see if this happens in future games.

This is great news for your love of the bombers Marcinos!!

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/19/2021 12:38:10 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Thanks for the link also, Early Doors! I remember some of this from 2 years back. Also..yes, it would be great if this older link got pinned. There's actual math here.

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/19/2021 1:45:27 AM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

So there are 3 modifiers to research, Catch Up Bonus (A), Sharing (B), and S&I(C). (A) requires the bonus giver (who leads in tech) to be in war, and on the opposite side. So before war, Russia and US will benefit from German and Japanese techs that are higher but not vice versa. (B) requires both countries in war, on the same side and sharing (p.190 of the Manual lists who shares with who. It's different from cooperativeness). Russia shares with no one and is shared by no one. (C)S&I does not require the country to be in war to boost its own research, or do S&I spotting, but does require both countries fully mobilized (doesn't have to be directly at war with each other) for one to cancel the other's research bonus.



So there were a couple errors in my original post. I have corrected them and reposted above. I've spend quite some time testing and believe the above is now all true.

The statement that "S&I only works when fully mobilized" is quite false. There are 3 functions of S&I:
1. Boosting your own research, which works better when you are NOT mobilized, as your enemy can't cancel this bonus until you are. This boosting is quite significant. If you constantly maintain more than 1000 mpp in research, you should consider S&I. US will be the country to benefit most from this.
2. Spotting opponent units. This does not require you to be mobilized. US will spot Axis units as soon as she reaches S&I level 1, way before war.
3. Canceling opponents' S&I bonus. This only works when both you and your opponent are fully mobilized.

The statement "Only highest S&I level for a Side (Allies|Axis)counts", is only true when it comes to canceling opponents S&I bonus. It doesn't apply to the other 2 functions of S&I.

So it's quite critical for US to get S&I ASAP. I would sell almost every US tech and 2 chit Ind Tech, 1 chit S&I on turn 1, and 2nd chit S&I as soon as I have the money (turn 3). This will make US eventually very powerful, can lead Germany in several techs, and can almost fight Germany 1 on 1 come 1944. This is why the game is now very single dimensional for the Axis. It's either Russia or bust. A successful Sealion could mean a loss for the Axis, if the Allied player knows how to deal with it.

It's kind of urgent for UK to 2nd chit S&I when she can, to make sure the Axis don't get ahead in tech before US gets in the war. I may not invest the 3rd chit for UK though, unless UK reaches lvl 1 very early.


< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/19/2021 2:35:08 AM >

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/19/2021 2:43:17 PM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

So there are 3 modifiers to research, Catch Up Bonus (A), Sharing (B), and S&I(C). (A) requires the bonus giver (who leads in tech) to be in war, and on the opposite side. So before war, Russia and US will benefit from German and Japanese techs that are higher but not vice versa. (B) requires both countries in war, on the same side and sharing (p.190 of the Manual lists who shares with who. It's different from cooperativeness). Russia shares with no one and is shared by no one. (C)S&I does not require the country to be in war to boost its own research, or do S&I spotting, but does require both countries fully mobilized (doesn't have to be directly at war with each other) for one to cancel the other's research bonus.



So there were a couple errors in my original post. I have corrected them and reposted above. I've spend quite some time testing and believe the above is now all true.

The statement that "S&I only works when fully mobilized" is quite false. There are 3 functions of S&I:
1. Boosting your own research, which works better when you are NOT mobilized, as your enemy can't cancel this bonus until you are. This boosting is quite significant. If you constantly maintain more than 1000 mpp in research, you should consider S&I. US will be the country to benefit most from this.
2. Spotting opponent units. This does not require you to be mobilized. US will spot Axis units as soon as she reaches S&I level 1, way before war.
3. Canceling opponents' S&I bonus. This only works when both you and your opponent are fully mobilized.

The statement "Only highest S&I level for a Side (Allies|Axis)counts", is only true when it comes to canceling opponents S&I bonus. It doesn't apply to the other 2 functions of S&I.

So it's quite critical for US to get S&I ASAP. I would sell almost every US tech and 2 chit Ind Tech, 1 chit S&I on turn 1, and 2nd chit S&I as soon as I have the money (turn 3). This will make US eventually very powerful, can lead Germany in several techs, and can almost fight Germany 1 on 1 come 1944. This is why the game is now very single dimensional for the Axis. It's either Russia or bust. A successful Sealion could mean a loss for the Axis, if the Allied player knows how to deal with it.

It's kind of urgent for UK to 2nd chit S&I when she can, to make sure the Axis don't get ahead in tech before US gets in the war. I may not invest the 3rd chit for UK though, unless UK reaches lvl 1 very early.



Very helpful ideas, especially 2nd S&I chit for UK which I haven't done in the past. In addition to a return on MPP invested in S&I, there's the strategic benefit of catching up with German tech.

On the flip side for Axis, should Italy throw a chit in S&I to slow down Allies?

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/19/2021 4:28:26 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Very helpful ideas, especially 2nd S&I chit for UK which I haven't done in the past. In addition to a return on MPP invested in S&I, there's the strategic benefit of catching up with German tech.

On the flip side for Axis, should Italy throw a chit in S&I to slow down Allies?


Though half of the time I couldn't find the MPPs to 2nd chit UK early enough, in that case I actually don't 2nd chit at all, esp if I want to diplo Finland... No you would never need Italy to invest S&I, as you would only need 1 mobilized country (Germany) with S&I on your side to slow down the opponent. The reason for UK to do it is because US is not in the war until late. Other than UK, US and Germany, the benefit for S&I would only be some extra spotting.

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RE: Tech guide update - 6/19/2021 9:08:27 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Thank you all for contribution! I modified the guide, namely the US section. S&I was promoted way higher on the list.

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