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Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underway replenishment bug"

 
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Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underway r... - 5/31/2021 4:11:21 AM   
Kull


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The only difference (as stated by the coder) between the 11.26a WitP-AE Release and the 11.26b Beta, is an improvement to amphibious unloading rates. However, that fix is already included in 11.26a, as was conclusively demonstrated in this thread.

Even so, a significant number of AE veterans still recommend that new players - already struggling with switches and learning the game - "upgrade" to the Beta because it "fixes late war underway replenishment". Specifically, this refers to the ship-type description for the AE Ammunition Ship (page 276 of the manual) which states that an AE is:

"A ship specially equipped to carry ammunition and to rearm other ships while underway. Underway rearming is only available late in the war – until then AEs function as AKE."

There WAS a bug affecting that capability, but the list of 11.26a fixes includes a resolution to that very problem:

quote:

ORIGINAL: HybridSpyda

55. Fix underway replenishment not working if total rearm cost too big


Even so, it's a hoary myth that has been repeated again and again here in the forum, attaining something akin to the status of gospel.

Part of the problem is the "bug" is a late war event, so it's not something people would see right off the bat, and you can't test for it until late in the game. Fortunately WitP-AE includes the "Downfall" scenario (starting in September 1945), which means that testing IS possible. So let's do that.

For the test I'm using an unmodified, clean install of 11.26a. We'll assemble a large Bombardment TF at Guam, containing TEN battleships (see attachment), and aim it at nearby Marcus Island. If "re-arm cost too big" is a bug, this should tell us.




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 4:13:41 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
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From: El Paso, TX
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After the bombardment, every BB has expended some of it's ammunition, as exemplified by this screenshot of the TF Leader, BB Missouri.




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 4:14:56 AM   
Kull


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From: El Paso, TX
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The Bombardment TF has rendezvoused with the smallest Replenishment TF I could create, containing the AE Nitro and it's relatively meager 3600 ton capacity.




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 4:16:57 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online
Hitting the "Replenish TF at Sea" button results in Ops point expenditure for every ship in the BBTF, but most of that is fuel (yes, even though there isn't an AO in the Replenishment TF, these vampires drain what they can). However, BB Missouri has used 943 points, so let's see where it went.




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 4:18:11 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
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From: El Paso, TX
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Some fuel probably, but most went toward Full Replenishment of all main gun ammo. Which is the bug that supposedly resides in 11.26a. Except it doesn't.




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 4:19:47 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online
Lastly we'll look at the Replenishment TF, and sure enough it has expended the maximum 1000 Ops point. Pretty clear that BB Missouri's main gun ammo didn't appear out of thin air.

So, what have we learned? There is no known benefit associated with the 11.26b Beta. There isn't a SINGLE bug which it is proven to fix. From this point forward there is no longer any reason to recommend it to ANYONE, much less a new player, already struggling to get the game working properly.




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 4:25:27 AM   
Nomad


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What I remember is that there was a 1126a-beta at one time. At some point in time this changed to 1126a official release.
I believe that the beta had an error but when they wrapped things up and mad it an official update, they included the
1126b fixes also.

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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 4:31:55 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

What I remember is that there was a 1126a-beta at one time. At some point in time this changed to 1126a official release.
I believe that the beta had an error but when they wrapped things up and mad it an official update, they included the
1126b fixes also.


That's quite likely the case. As I pointed out in the original 11.26b takedown thread, there was at least a six week interval between the release of the 11.26b beta and the pre-release 11.26a announcement thread. More than enough time to add the actual 11.26b fix, which involved amphibious unload.

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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 11:40:50 AM   
btd64


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So I must of missed something but you're saying that the 1126b beta isn't necessary? That's fine with me....GP

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Post #: 9
RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 11:42:23 AM   
HansBolter


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How does using the 1126b beta update increase difficulty for newbies who are struggling with switches?

If the newbs are struggling with switches because they don't understand them, they are going to have the same struggles with any executable, not just 1126b.



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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 12:21:15 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

What I remember is that there was a 1126a-beta at one time. At some point in time this changed to 1126a official release.
I believe that the beta had an error but when they wrapped things up and mad it an official update, they included the
1126b fixes also.


That's quite likely the case. As I pointed out in the original 11.26b takedown thread, there was at least a six week interval between the release of the 11.26b beta and the pre-release 11.26a announcement thread. More than enough time to add the actual 11.26b fix, which involved amphibious unload.


The numbering system Matrix uses has always been a little strange to me.

I’ve always thought the underway replenishment fix made it into the 1126a because the beta log shows it.

My question has always been did the last beta item make it into the 1126a?

I’ve asked Michael that question by private mail but have never received a reply from him.
I’m not sure that he knows this if his work was handed off to someone else for publication.

That is not a very import question as far as I’m concerned.

But…..It might be to a Japanese player…..If an Amphibious Task Force can unload faster in home ports than other
Types of Task forces then the Japanese should ship all of their supplies and resources by Amphibious Task Force.

I’ve never checked that out.





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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 2:39:02 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

My question has always been did the last beta item make it into the 1126a?

I’ve never checked that out.


You don't have to, since I already did. Both 11.26a and 11.26b handle amphibious unload in exactly the same way.


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Post #: 12
RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 2:47:47 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

How does using the 1126b beta update increase difficulty for newbies who are struggling with switches?

If the newbs are struggling with switches because they don't understand them, they are going to have the same struggles with any executable, not just 1126b.


You are advocating for an additional process that fixes no bugs and adds no benefit whatsoever to the game. What will you tell them Hans? Why are they doing this extra step?

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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 2:59:04 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

How does using the 1126b beta update increase difficulty for newbies who are struggling with switches?

If the newbs are struggling with switches because they don't understand them, they are going to have the same struggles with any executable, not just 1126b.


You are advocating for an additional process that fixes no bugs and adds no benefit whatsoever to the game. What will you tell them Hans? Why are they doing this extra step?

It also creates a different directory path for the Beta, but it does add a shortcut that actually points to the game executable, unlike the official version that still puts a shortcut that points to autorun.exe and brings up the menu screen instead of the game. Some pluses, some minuses.




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 3:23:58 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

How does using the 1126b beta update increase difficulty for newbies who are struggling with switches?

If the newbs are struggling with switches because they don't understand them, they are going to have the same struggles with any executable, not just 1126b.


You are advocating for an additional process that fixes no bugs and adds no benefit whatsoever to the game. What will you tell them Hans? Why are they doing this extra step?

It also creates a different directory path for the Beta, but it does add a shortcut that actually points to the game executable, unlike the official version that still puts a shortcut that points to autorun.exe and brings up the menu screen instead of the game. Some pluses, some minuses.


I'll agree that the 11.26a shortcut pointing to "autorun" is poor implementation on the part of Matrix, but that's hardly a good reason to advocate for people going through the trouble of finding, downloading and installing a "Beta" which does absolutely nothing except deliver a "working" shortcut. On that basis, sure you can cite a "plus".

Except that EVERYONE has to open and edit the shortcut regardless, in order to add switches. Meaning there's no benefit because it takes just as long to edit for switches plus correct directory as it does for switches alone. So its actually faster and less complicated to just edit the 11.26a shortcut.

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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 3:57:20 PM   
BBfanboy


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I get your point. BTW, beaucoup thanks for doing the testing to dispel that myth! And Kudos to MichaelM for all the inputs to the Beta which became the official update because it was so stable and useful!

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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 5/31/2021 6:55:40 PM   
Kull


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One interesting byproduct of the test. If you have the AEs in a Cargo TF and hit the "Replenish TF at Sea" button, it will still use them (as you can see in the screenshot). So TF type is not the driving factor, it's just having an available AE in the same hex.




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/1/2021 9:35:44 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

How does using the 1126b beta update increase difficulty for newbies who are struggling with switches?

If the newbs are struggling with switches because they don't understand them, they are going to have the same struggles with any executable, not just 1126b.


You are advocating for an additional process that fixes no bugs and adds no benefit whatsoever to the game. What will you tell them Hans? Why are they doing this extra step?


I didn't advocate anything. I merely made an observation that poked a hole in your 'reasoning' argument.

Am I gonna have to start calling you Cathy Newman?

Is the reason for not using 1126b to not have to go through an unnecessary step or is it to reduce confusion over switches for newbs?

My prompting you resulted in your providing a 'better' reasoning argument.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 6/1/2021 9:39:54 AM >


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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/1/2021 2:25:12 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

How does using the 1126b beta update increase difficulty for newbies who are struggling with switches?

If the newbs are struggling with switches because they don't understand them, they are going to have the same struggles with any executable, not just 1126b.


You are advocating for an additional process that fixes no bugs and adds no benefit whatsoever to the game. What will you tell them Hans? Why are they doing this extra step?

It also creates a different directory path for the Beta, but it does add a shortcut that actually points to the game executable, unlike the official version that still puts a shortcut that points to autorun.exe and brings up the menu screen instead of the game. Some pluses, some minuses.


I'll agree that the 11.26a shortcut pointing to "autorun" is poor implementation on the part of Matrix, but that's hardly a good reason to advocate for people going through the trouble of finding, downloading and installing a "Beta" which does absolutely nothing except deliver a "working" shortcut. On that basis, sure you can cite a "plus".

Except that EVERYONE has to open and edit the shortcut regardless, in order to add switches. Meaning there's no benefit because it takes just as long to edit for switches plus correct directory as it does for switches alone. So its actually faster and less complicated to just edit the 11.26a shortcut.


Have to admit, I really like the 26b update, as I can copy the entire folder of WITP AE to a new folder, install the patch and the shortcut works.

Just what I am comfortable with though, and if it isn't needed, I certainly could learn a new method.

One less step for new players certainly makes sense.

Thankyou for your work!



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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/1/2021 2:47:44 PM   
Trugrit


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I like the Beta as well just because Michael worked on it for years.
I trust him more than anyone else who may have put together the 1126a.

But…I do install the beta after I install the 1126a first.

The problem for new players is that right now we have two versions of the updated game.
Or…at least the computer thinks we have two versions of the updated game.

New players are naturally going to see the Beta thread in the Tech Support Section
and see that it has a date that is newer than the 1126a and will continue to ask us about it
until Kingdom Come.






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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/1/2021 6:21:46 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

I like the Beta as well just because Michael worked on it for years.
I trust him more than anyone else who may have put together the 1126a.


The person who developed all the new code in the 11.26a official release was....michaelm. Same guy. Everything in his many betas was summed up and released as 11.26a. To include the single fix included in 11.26b. Just compare the changelog in the Beta thread with those in the 11.26a pre-release thread.

quote:

But…I do install the beta after I install the 1126a first.


I'm not telling people it has to be uninstalled or that it's dangerous. Just that it doesn't DO anything. Everything in 11.26b is already present in 11.26a.

quote:

The problem for new players is that right now we have two versions of the updated game.
Or…at least the computer thinks we have two versions of the updated game.


Both those dates come from Michael's Beta patch thread and are the dates of his two Beta releases. They have little to do with the timing or contents of the official 11.26a release. Go to the Matrix store, and the WitP-AE page tells you the 11.26a patch is dated March 16, 2015 (see attached). That obviously isn't true. The Public Beta thread was created on November 1, 2016, which is almost 4 months after the 11.26a Beta and a full 6 weeks after 11.26b.

You can't use any of those dates to draw any definitive conclusions as to what is actually in the 11.26a official patch.

quote:

New players are naturally going to see the Beta thread in the Tech Support Section and see that it has a date that is newer than the 1126a and will continue to ask us about it until Kingdom Come.


Indeed they will. And as an AE veteran you now have definitive prove that the Beta fixes nothing, and can tell every new player who asks, to "ignore it". What you cannot do is tell them it fixes the "amphibious unload bug" or the "underway refueling bug", as those canards have been conclusively demolished. Nor can you tell them it fixes any other bug, because there are no others associated with the 11.26b Beta.

If michaelm's long service to the community has proven anything, it's that he's a good coder who listens to feedback and communicates ALL the fixes included in his Beta releases.




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< Message edited by Kull -- 6/1/2021 6:22:59 PM >


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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/2/2021 2:20:48 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

I like the Beta as well just because Michael worked on it for years.
I trust him more than anyone else who may have put together the 1126a.


The person who developed all the new code in the 11.26a official release was....michaelm. Same guy. Everything in his many betas was summed up and released as 11.26a. To include the single fix included in 11.26b. Just compare the changelog in the Beta thread with those in the 11.26a pre-release thread.

quote:

But…I do install the beta after I install the 1126a first.


I'm not telling people it has to be uninstalled or that it's dangerous. Just that it doesn't DO anything. Everything in 11.26b is already present in 11.26a.

quote:

The problem for new players is that right now we have two versions of the updated game.
Or…at least the computer thinks we have two versions of the updated game.


Both those dates come from Michael's Beta patch thread and are the dates of his two Beta releases. They have little to do with the timing or contents of the official 11.26a release. Go to the Matrix store, and the WitP-AE page tells you the 11.26a patch is dated March 16, 2015 (see attached). That obviously isn't true. The Public Beta thread was created on November 1, 2016, which is almost 4 months after the 11.26a Beta and a full 6 weeks after 11.26b.

You can't use any of those dates to draw any definitive conclusions as to what is actually in the 11.26a official patch.

quote:

New players are naturally going to see the Beta thread in the Tech Support Section and see that it has a date that is newer than the 1126a and will continue to ask us about it until Kingdom Come.


Indeed they will. And as an AE veteran you now have definitive prove that the Beta fixes nothing, and can tell every new player who asks, to "ignore it". What you cannot do is tell them it fixes the "amphibious unload bug" or the "underway refueling bug", as those canards have been conclusively demolished. Nor can you tell them it fixes any other bug, because there are no others associated with the 11.26b Beta.

If michaelm's long service to the community has proven anything, it's that he's a good coder who listens to feedback and communicates ALL the fixes included in his Beta releases.




Um - Kull - I'm seeing 1.01.26a in the screenshot for the 2015 version of the game. Isn't the current one 1.8.11.26a?

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 6/2/2021 2:22:47 AM >


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Post #: 22
RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/2/2021 4:12:55 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
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From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Um - Kull - I'm seeing 1.01.26a in the screenshot for the 2015 version of the game. Isn't the current one 1.8.11.26a?


LOL. Well, if you click the link, it will download a file called "WarinthePacificAdmiralsEdition-UpdateComp-v1126a.zip" (see attached)

I ran the exe and it installed the complete v11.26a comprehensive update. Sooo.....

(Clearly, Matrix is trolling us)




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Post #: 23
RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/2/2021 11:36:01 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Um - Kull - I'm seeing 1.01.26a in the screenshot for the 2015 version of the game. Isn't the current one 1.8.11.26a?


LOL. Well, if you click the link, it will download a file called "WarinthePacificAdmiralsEdition-UpdateComp-v1126a.zip" (see attached)

I ran the exe and it installed the complete v11.26a comprehensive update. Sooo.....

(Clearly, Matrix is trolling us)




Agreed! I suspect the administrator for the updates section of their website is not entirely familiar with the games being updated!

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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/2/2021 2:33:37 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
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From: El Paso, TX
Status: online
To be clear, I don't have some sort of irrational hatred toward the Beta Patch. I'm just a big fan of efficiency, and the only things it supposedly fixed were:

1) The stated fix in the Beta changelog: A problem involving amphibious unload rates.

2) The long-held forum belief: A problem involving late-war underway replenishment.

Both have been tested pretty extensively, and I can't find evidence of either problem in both 11.26a and 11.26b. They handle each situation identically. On the face of it, the implication is the 11.26b fix was added to 11.26a prior to the patch release.

But there's a fly in the ointment. Let's look at the properties of each executable. In the attachment, we have 11.26a on the left and 11.26b to the right. Note that each file is exactly the same size, which is what you'd expect if they were truly identical. However, look at the "Modified" dates. Not surprisingly, 11.26b has a date which matches that in the Beta Thread changelog (September 17, 2016). However the 11.26a executable delivered by the Patch has the same date as its "Beta" counterpart (July 10, 2016), again as seen in the changelog.

That is surprising. If the 11.26b fix was added to the Patch executable you would think the modified date would be different, but it isn't. And there's another oddity....




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< Message edited by Kull -- 6/2/2021 2:34:04 PM >


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Post #: 25
RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/2/2021 2:35:48 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2610
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Here are the properties of the 11.26a comprehensive update executable. Not the game .exe, but rather the one which installs the whole patch. The creation date is August 19, 2016, which is significant, because that is BEFORE the 11.26b Beta was created. Which implies that whatever went into 11.26b - assuming it truly is different than 11.26a - well it could not have made it's way into the update.

It's baffling. The "fix" which is actually called out for 11.26b is definitely part of 11.26a so what - if anything - is different about it?




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RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/2/2021 9:27:30 PM   
RangerJoe


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I suppose that he could be asked . . .

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Post #: 27
RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/2/2021 9:36:40 PM   
BBfanboy


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Isn't the game download .exe file just packaging to deliver the content to you as a self-extracting .zip file? The package does not change the game within in any way, and a package invented before the game can still be used.

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Post #: 28
RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/3/2021 11:01:24 AM   
Trugrit


Posts: 939
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Isn't the game download .exe file just packaging to deliver the content to you as a self-extracting .zip file? The package does not change the game within in any way, and a package invented before the game can still be used.

Jim,

My understanding is that when the install application is created
it is a complete package along with the patch and can be added to
but the computer time stamps it when it is modified.

Every time you modify the package the computer time stamps it.

The updates are a package inside a package inside a zip file.

I’ve un-packed it below.

The dates of the modifications are what Kull finds strange and so do I.
Strange but it may not mean anything. Or, it could mean a lot.

Note that the 1126a uses a different install application than the Beta.

The official update, 1126a, has much more content than the beta.
It checks for your serial number and note that it requires
1.09 GB of disk space. It is comprehensive.
Maybe the entire game.

If you remember when the 1126a came out and you installed it
it installed the complete map sets. I remember players complaining
that it wiped out their maps and art when it installed.

That is why you can’t just install the beta and run with it without installing the 1126a first.

So, here we are.
Most likely the 1126a is complete and players can just run with it.

Maybe we should split into two religious factions.
Like the Catholics and Protestants.

One group we can call the Institutional Conformists who run with the 1126a.

And one group we can call the Ecclesiastical Goths who run with the 1126b Beta.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 29
RE: Mythbusters: The 11.26b Beta fixes the "underw... - 6/3/2021 6:19:46 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
This is the thread where the 'bug' was looked into...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4097324&mpage=1&key=underway%2Creplenishment&#



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 30
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