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Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/29/2021 8:58:45 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Greetings,
in my game (id=313522) I believe something strange has happened. It regards morale of Soviet units on Eastern Front.
Following first winter turn fo USSR (early January 1942), morale of most of my units suddenly degenerated down to around 50-70%. That's really strange, because nothing has happened, which could land such a blow. Last NM target, Dnipropietrovsk, fell in November, 2 turns earlier. In the meantime, USA joined the War, which caused spike up in Soviet NM.

Next turn (30.01.1942) morale for most units almost didn't recover, even though fighting was very modest, as were losses. In the meantime, Soviet Winter hit. Some German units were affected by it, though not so harsh as they could I believe (but I digress).

Getting back on topic - it's not the first game where it happened. Unfortunately, I don't have screens from previous games which show exact morale of units. Only from this game I started to take them and I will show them below.

My suspicion - something is wrong with event called 'Prepare for Winter Warfare'. It fires in 09.1940, if USSR doesn't attack Finalnd - I didn't. Ofc only answer to this event is yes, and this was picked in this game. Still, when winter 1941/1942 begun, I got hit really strongly. Therefore - could there be a bug of some sort?

Below I show some screens. National Morale of USSR was 87% and then 86% respectively, German 107 and 106%. So there was no multiplier change.




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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/29/2021 8:59:46 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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The same army, not involved into a fight, next turn. Both morale and readiness dropped.





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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/29/2021 9:01:09 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Next example - Sovet army at supply 12, 1st turn:




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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/29/2021 9:02:06 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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And the next turn. Despite supply 12 and no combat, supply is lower.




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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/29/2021 9:03:52 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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At the same time, German corps in poor (5) supply, retains excellent stats:





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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/29/2021 9:04:49 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Next turn, its morale dropped down to 113%, so 1 pp. According to formula from manual, it should be around 95%, ceteris paribus.




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< Message edited by Marcinos1985 -- 5/29/2021 9:05:49 PM >


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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/29/2021 9:12:00 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Lastly, an example of soviet units at low morale out of sudden:




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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/29/2021 9:12:52 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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And other one, which didn't see combat at all.




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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/31/2021 2:14:27 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Marcinos1985,

Was there a possible surrender of an Allied nation during this time? Perhaps in the Pacific theater?

If so this would have an effect on Soviet unit national morale, for a few turns. Actually the unit national morale of all Allied nations for a few turns.

Hubert



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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/31/2021 5:05:38 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Indeed, Philippines went down in late December/early January Axis turn. Would this cuase such a hit? Around 20-30%? Don't get me wrong, but Soviets have enough truoble of their own to care about an Island several thousand km away.
Update - on February Allied turn Soviet morale got a bump back of around 25%. Army from Leningrad from post above went up to around 107% again. So this may be this, a temp shockwave from PHI surrender. Question is, is this not too severe penalty? I could imagine Japan taking country by country each turn to keep Allied morale low. Or maybe it's PHI which causes such a shockwave, Manila is victory target I believe. Something to consider, USSR has enough problems in SC:WaW.

P.S. There's also the case of this GER corp at 5 supply. Maybe it's the same thing - they got temporary morale boost for PHI surrender? If that's true, that's a 50% of morale swing against Soviets. If it happened around April/May 1942, USSR would have a very bloody turn. Food for thought.

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 5/31/2021 5:59:06 PM   
boudi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

Indeed, Philippines went down in late December/early January Axis turn. Would this cuase such a hit? Around 20-30%? Don't get me wrong, but Soviets have enough truoble of their own to care about an Island several thousand km away.
Update - on February Allied turn Soviet morale got a bump back of around 25%. Army from Leningrad from post above went up to around 107% again. So this may be this, a temp shockwave from PHI surrender. Question is, is this not too severe penalty? I could imagine Japan taking country by country each turn to keep Allied morale low. Or maybe it's PHI which causes such a shockwave, Manila is victory target I believe. Something to consider, USSR has enough problems in SC:WaW.



I couldn't have said it better...

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/2/2021 7:23:42 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

Question is, is this not too severe penalty? I could imagine Japan taking country by country each turn to keep Allied morale low.


I don't have to imagine anymore, that's exactly what happens in this game. Soviet morale consistently falls to around 50%, while German may skyrocket even to 120%. And that's all because small countries in distant Pacific give up each turn. First Philippines, then New Guinea, then Solomons, now DEI. Malayas and Burma still to take. I can't imagine that Ivan or other Nikita sitting in the trenches in 05.1942 could care less though I believe it's an engine case (country goes down, appropriate side takes a hit), but I don't know if this could be tuned somehow. Morale boost for Axis is understandable, a dip for UK or US maybe, but for USSR - in my opinion - less so.

I believe there is no much that Allied player can do either, without resorting to cheese of some sort, like bringing UK fleet to Pacific and intercepting JP transports. I believe some players even agreed (house rule) no to do so, because it's such a blatant hindsight that even avid metagamer like me would feel ashamed.

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/3/2021 5:31:13 AM   
boudi

 

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And now I learn that every confetti that falls in the Pacific causes Soviet morale to plummet.

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/3/2021 8:44:11 AM   
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I'm going to be giving this some thought to see what can be done to avoid such an impact on the USSR here.

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/3/2021 3:57:57 PM   
boudi

 

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Thank you very much. Great support as usual.

And thanks to Marcinos1985 too.

< Message edited by boudi -- 6/3/2021 4:16:19 PM >

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/22/2021 12:10:29 AM   
MrLongleg

 

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I can just second that, I win most of my Axis games and lose as the Allies, because Russia dies in almost any at all PBEM against a capable Axis player

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/22/2021 6:43:54 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

I don't have to imagine anymore, that's exactly what happens in this game. Soviet morale consistently falls to around 50%, while German may skyrocket even to 120%. And that's all because small countries in distant Pacific give up each turn. First Philippines, then New Guinea, then Solomons, now DEI. Malayas and Burma still to take. I can't imagine that Ivan or other Nikita sitting in the trenches in 05.1942 could care less though I believe it's an engine case (country goes down, appropriate side takes a hit), but I don't know if this could be tuned somehow. Morale boost for Axis is understandable, a dip for UK or US maybe, but for USSR - in my opinion - less so.



Interesting as this tactic was used on a smaller scale with SC-WW1 concerning the infamous 'Montenegro Gambit'.
1st turn..Luxembourg surrenders>following turn CP buff. 2nd turn, Montenegro surrenders (chit selling on turn one to operate 3 or more German corps next to Montenegrin capital> new CP buff for 3rd turn.

Mean while..Central Powers go all out on Russia and Serbia with these two buffs on hand...and demolish Russia while they are trying to receive their 2nd and third turn units that are mobilizing to the board. Also, because of the 2nd and 3rd turn surrender buffs..All of Russian Poloand is cut off by uber 120+ morale CP forces.

Now..all of this has been fixed in the last patches for SC-WW1...and thanks much for that!

However...I was involved in 2 major tests to figure out how to fix this after it came to our attention on the forum over there. A few of us secret squirrels knew about the possibility to take out Montenegro on the second turn after about the first month SC-WW1 came out. But, nobody that I know realized just how big the buffs..especially chained, could be. The usual was..take Luxembourg..that helps further the push west into Belgium and France. This we knew..and didn't mind as this was a cool design feature. It took someone though..to put two and two together, and go for a bigger prize using these back to back buffs...Russia!

While all these tests and huge discussions were going on, I heard from a couple of people via pm off forum, that this stratagem of knocking off one smallish country at a time, e.g. New Guinea, then Solomons, etc, etc or some combination, consecutively, and not at the same time..was the trick.

So..its possible that a WaW expert brought that over to SC-WW1, where it was used to great effect as I described above...and turned a gambit like taking Montenegro on the second turn of the match, into an exploit...where it was unleashed on unsuspecting players for months.

There's my 3 cents. I like the surrender buff, but as Marcinos pointed out..why would the loss of lets say The Solomon Islands affect the Soviet Union at all, especially with the Axis beating down their doors up into the first winter of 1941, the same time as the Japanese start their rampage?




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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/22/2021 10:52:13 AM   
EarlyDoors


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Marcinos - can you share the USSR National Morale graph over this time period?

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/22/2021 7:27:29 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors
Marcinos - can you share the USSR National Morale graph over this time period?


Yes, here you go.





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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/22/2021 7:32:55 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

While all these tests and huge discussions were going on, I heard from a couple of people via pm off forum, that this stratagem of knocking off one smallish country at a time, e.g. New Guinea, then Solomons, etc, etc or some combination, consecutively, and not at the same time..was the trick.


Yes, this seems the way to go. This buff is so powerful, that Germans troops have higher morale than soviets despite Soviet Winter event. Same for China - if it's somehow alive still, then it will get a final stab with prolonged morale buff for JP.

These effects seem quite powerful, this case from SC:WW1 seems to underline it.

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/23/2021 6:00:40 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

quote:

While all these tests and huge discussions were going on, I heard from a couple of people via pm off forum, that this stratagem of knocking off one smallish country at a time, e.g. New Guinea, then Solomons, etc, etc or some combination, consecutively, and not at the same time..was the trick.


Yes, this seems the way to go. This buff is so powerful, that Germans troops have higher morale than soviets despite Soviet Winter event. Same for China - if it's somehow alive still, then it will get a final stab with prolonged morale buff for JP.

These effects seem quite powerful, this case from SC:WW1 seems to underline it.

Yes..it is. I do understand the rational of this mechanic, (The Luxembourg surrender helps the Germans possibly take Ypres..the third and usually last capital of Belgium)...but, I think the Soviet example pinned with Japanese methodical take downs in the SW Pacific shouldn't have such a high impact on the USSR's NM. Also, if anything, if the Japanese and USSR agree to a Non-Aggression Pact (NAP) around the same time period, you would think that would have a positive morale outcome for the Soviets.

When I did those two tests (Montenegro Gambit Test 1 and 2) featured on the SC-WW1 War Room forum, I down loaded multiple map images turn by turn. So did Bavre, my test partner. I looked at the NM reports repeatedly as did Bavre, but unfortunately, did not screen shoot and upload those.

I can say with high confidence though, that looking at those, coupled with checking the contending units..mirrors what seems to be the case with the Soviet morale hit in the winter of 41/42 right after the Japanese start consuming small Allied or neutral countries around the Pacific littoral. e.g. The Central Powers get back to back buffs from taking down Luxembourg, and then next turn Montenegro.

The Germans (whom many of thier corps are already experienced) and Austro-Hungarias have corps that jump temporarily to 124% morale and extremely high readiness as opposed to Russian corps that drop to 50%-60% morale..etc. Even if I sacked the crappy generals Russia had, it made little benefit. Having this go on for 4 turns or so was enough to permanently cripple Russia in that game (before the last two patches changing Russian dispositions and incoming unit placement helped greatly..but no change to the surrender buffs..which is fine for SC-WW1).

It seems like this can be the case here with the Soviets also concerning the global surrender buff mechanic. How hard it would be to localize the surrender buff I personally have no idea. I do like the mechanic...but imho, it needs to be moderated, especially in regards to the Soviets. I think it needs to be geographically and geopolitically moderated...so that, while the surrender of a neighbor or close ally should have an impact...having something like the loss to the Allies of New Guinea might greatly have an adverse impact the UK(Australia et al), it shouldn't be so pronounced on the Soviet Union.

All this might be complicated to improve...but maybe it would not. Food for thought though. This is already a most excellent game for sure, and while on the surface, it may look like beer and pretzels..it is actually quite deep if approached the way some of us hardcore grognards do.



< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 6/23/2021 6:13:20 AM >

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/23/2021 8:23:03 AM   
EarlyDoors


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I guess you guys are talking about this


7.29.3. Morale Bonuses and Penalties
There are two additional morale effects in the game. When a country surrenders there is a unit morale bonus for all units of the conquering country as well as for all similarly aligned fully active Majors, and a corresponding morale decrease for all fully active opponent Majors. These morale gains or losses are 20-30% for land and air units and 5-15% for naval units.
Similarly, when a country is liberated there is a morale bonus for all units of the liberating country and other aligned and fully active Majors of 10-20% for land and air units, and 5-15% for naval units.
Morale bonuses are restricted to units whose morale is below 125%, and Morale Penalties are restricted to units whose morale is above 50%.
These effects are intended to replicate those hard to quantify morale boosts and penalties that victories and defeats during a war can have on either side. Their effect is solely on unit’s combat effectiveness, and generally unit morale will only be affected for a few turns.


Are these effects reflected in National Morale? Or is it just a one-turn adjustment input to Unit Morale?



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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/23/2021 11:40:54 AM   
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Mechanically it may not be so easy, but from a player perspective;
For minor countries:
Apply the bonus only to nations at war with the surrendering country (or even only the Major that conquers it)
and the penalty only to nations at war with the conquering country (or perhaps even ONLY the "parent nation" major)

(Major country surrenders are few and far enough between that I don't think that's a real issue)

I'm also curious about and Morale Penalties are restricted to units whose morale is above 50%
Does that mean a unit with 51% morale could drop down to 21% (maximum land unit hit at 30%), while a 49% morale would be unaffected?
Perhaps instead cap the drop so that no unit will drop below 50% from it? (any unit between 50 and 70% would drop down to exactly 50%, anything between 70 and 80 COULD drop to 50%, but no worse than that)

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/23/2021 11:51:11 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

Perhaps instead cap the drop so that no unit will drop below 50% from it?

From example from opening post, I believe it won't fall below 50%, and on the other hand I didn't see GER units with morale above 125%.

quote:

Are these effects reflected in National Morale? Or is it just a one-turn adjustment input to Unit Morale?

It seems the second sentence is true.

All this leads to situation, when GER troops during Winter, deep in Soviet Russia, have morale higher than after fall of France. Quite contrary to real life.

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RE: Soviet Morale issue on Eastern Front - 6/24/2021 4:13:01 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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Thanks Marcinos for bringing this up. In the past I've never fully realized the impact of the surrenders.

Now looking back at my game against Taifun, I've always wondered why his Russian units were so squishy. Usually in 41 Russians are decently tough. In fact I actually messaged him about it. Turned out I conquered Egypt on Aug 1, 41, then Palestine the next turn, and Transjordan 2 turns later... So diverting a significant force to NA and ME may actually help out the war in Russia (if you time it)!

I remember once someone asked why his Russians were doing fine in 41 but suddenly began to collapse come 42, and no one gave an answer. Well, that's when Japan began to conquer countries in the Pacific.

I think this mechanism is definitely an overkill. We already have plenty of NM objectives, and there are already way too many mechanisms that rewards the strong and punish the weak, which makes balancing the game ever more challenging. I would vote to have this mechanism removed, or at minimum, limit to countries that are significant and only affect the direct conqueror, with the amount of impact greatly reduced.

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 6/24/2021 4:14:19 PM >

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