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[WAD] About ground combat - 5/29/2021 8:38:57 PM   
Steve04

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 12/1/2020
From: Firenze - Italia
Status: offline
As it has already emerged in some of my threads, I am very interested in ground operations, even if we know that CMO is mainly dedicated to air-naval operations, but is gradually implementing the land aspects as well.
So, my goal, on this occasion, is to create a very simple scenario where a clash occurs between some land units (limited in time and / or in the intensity of the fire action, so that the two parties, while suffering damage, are not annihilated), at the end of which one (or both) the opposing forces retreat to another area, refuel with weapons (and fuel? and repair damage...?) and then come back to fight, starting a kind of loop that - this time yes ... - can also lead to the final victory of one of the two sides.
It sounds very simple ... but it doesn't seem that way to me.
So, let's see and help me to develop it, step-by-step.
FILE # 1 - SCENARIO TEST 1 LIMITED ATK
I am facing Tunisia and Italy. Let's try it in the simplest way, with two units on each side, all controlled by AI, without manual intervention.
The Tunisian group, "M113 Group" composed of 2 M113 APC, armed with 12.7mm is assigned to a Land Strike mission ("M113 vs. Dardo"), the movement is not plotted, only the speed is set with F2 at 8 kts. The WCS are in TIGHT (so they will only be able to attack against hostile units) and the fact that in the WRA, the option to fire against soft or hardened mobile units is set to 1 round (burst) at a time, to extend the time and minimize damage combat. The mission lasts only 5.00 minutes, time calculated in such a way that a limited exchange of blows occurs which, probably, can also cause some damage, but without losses on both sides.
On the Italian side, the "ITA Mech" group is made up of a VCC Dardo (25mm and 7.62mm) and a Vehicle Puma (7.62mm). They are part of a patrol area mission, WRA always limited to 1 round per salvo and with investigation within the weapon range and active self defense, but without time limitations.
COURSE AND OUTCOME
The two Tunisian units almost immediately detect the presence of "unknown" units and, approaching them, as soon as they recognize them as hostile, they start firing.
This occurs outside the defensive patrol perimeter of the Italian units which, therefore, do not fire.
- PROBLEM # 1 - Who regulates the approach speed during a land mission? Why does the speed change from the one initially set to another that cannot be changed at a certain point? Maybe this happens when they go into offensive Engage mode?
- PROBLEM # 2 - Why do Italian units not fire, but remain passive, despite being attacked? Probably because their mission involves an investigation within the range of their weapons. But in reality I realized that this is not correct: in fact the Tunisian units are already within the range of the Oerlikon 25mm of the VCC Dardo. The problem is that they are still outside the perimeter of the patrol area. The fact is that you could have an unrealistic situation, where a unit fires, say, from just 100 meters (but immediately beyond the boundary of the area) and relentlessly massacres the enemy which suffers without defending itself ...
So the first question is: how to get Italian units to fire within the limits of their weapons, even if the enemies attacking them are outside the patrol area? Probably we need to work on the prosecution area (all this unecessarily complicates things, however ...)
Second question: but what is the use of having activated Self defense at maximum range in the WRA (for both 25mm and 7.62mm), if the units do not automatically respond to fire when attacked?
LET'S GO ON WITH THE SCENARIO
After the set time (5.00 min.) the Tunisian mission becomes "inactive", this is confirmed both by the mission window and by the Group/units Status, but in reality nothing happens, in the sense that the two M113s continue to fire until have ammo, are alive or as long as there is something to hit.
- PROBLEM # 3 - The mission, in fact, is not deactivated at the set time.
So, other questions: why the mission is not actually disabled? are there any effects of deactivating a mission? Which ones are they ?

Of course, then, all this involves problems for the subsequent stages of the scenario, but we will address them, one at a time, step by step.

Attached is the start situation of the scenario (Scenario test 1 Limited atk OK)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Rory Noonan -- 6/1/2021 7:22:28 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: About ground combat - 5/31/2021 3:39:38 AM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 1361
Joined: 11/15/2018
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quote:

Maybe this happens when they go into offensive Engage mode?

yes, as there is no ground unit attack speed one can set, the ai logic takes over after engaged.

quote:

Why do Italian units not fire

Because they are on a ASUW patrol (ground) and for whatever reason need "engage opportunity targets" enabled for mobile units (as they're not technically see as 'land units' for the default mission target profile - this may or maynot be entirely intentional from devs). Setting this in the mission does make them engage (and leave their PZ while doing it since there is no prosecution zone assigned) and they destroy two enemy units by ~12:03:31 in my test runs.

quote:

The mission, in fact, is not deactivated at the set time.

If you mean the generic mission deactivation time for the M113 vs. Dardo at 12:05:00Z on the Tunisian side, it disables itself as instructed when I ran it.
If you mean for the Italian side there is no deactivation time set.








(in reply to Steve04)
Post #: 2
RE: About ground combat - 6/1/2021 9:13:54 AM   
Steve04

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 12/1/2020
From: Firenze - Italia
Status: offline
Thank you KnightHawk75 for testing my scenario !
You noticed some interesting things and I learned that a unit in AsuW Patrol does not fire, unless the Engage Opportunities option has been activated. At the same time, this shows that it is useless to have activated the Self Defense at Max range option in the ROE WRA (I wonder then what it is for ..).
I have also had confirmation that the approach speed of a ground Group in Strike mission varies and passes under the control of the AI, from the moment the group itself enters Engage Offensive mode.
However, I do not agree with what you say regarding the deactivation of the Tunisian mission M113 vs. Dardo.
You wrote:
"If you mean the generic mission deactivation time for the M113 vs. Dardo at 12:05:00Z on the Tunisian side, it disables itself as instructed when I ran it."
But I wrote in this thread:
"After the set time (5.00 min.) the Tunisian mission becomes "inactive", this is confirmed both by the mission window and by the Group/units Status, but in reality nothing happens, in the sense that the two M113s continue to fire until have ammo, are alive or as long as there is something to hit."
In fact, when a mission is deactivated, I believe that all the units involved should stop all their activities and wait for further orders ... which is not the case here !!!
And this is not of little importance, because it directly involves and influences the second phase of the scenario, that is, HOW TO MAKE THE RETREAT OF THE M113 GROUP ?

I attach a screenshot that demonstrates how, after 5min 20sec, despite the mission being correctly "inactive", as stated in the Unit Status, the two M113s continue to fire with the enemy units...




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Steve04 -- 6/2/2021 10:25:28 AM >

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 3
RE: About ground combat - 6/1/2021 2:01:54 PM   
WSBot

 

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Joined: 1/17/2021
Status: offline
0014583

(in reply to Steve04)
Post #: 4
RE: About ground combat - 6/1/2021 4:11:25 PM   
Steve04

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 12/1/2020
From: Firenze - Italia
Status: offline
0014583 ???
What does il mean ?

(in reply to WSBot)
Post #: 5
RE: About ground combat - 6/1/2021 4:31:39 PM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 1361
Joined: 11/15/2018
Status: offline
quote:

You noticed some interesting things and I learned that a unit in AsuW Patrol does not fire, unless the Engage Opportunities option has been activated.

Well...they will but only at fixed-facility "land" targets. ie if you stick a fixed facility like a typical radar unit or say a aerostat mooring (used when I tested it placed near the pz) the units on a ASuW patrol will fire - just not on ones flagged mobile.

quote:

Self Defense at Max range option in the ROE WRA (I wonder then what it is for ..)
For self defensive actions, so like think a mobile sam unit firing at incoming missing that are targeting it, and in your case there are no weapons to engage\counter the incoming rounds so it wouldn't logically apply in this instance - nor as I recall would it trigger an engagement of the firing unit - just the hostile inbound weapon for self-defense purposes (at least from what I recall).

quote:

but in reality nothing happens

In my test runs under build 1147.25 the mission was disabled at the specified time of 12:05:00 Z.
With engage opportunity targets no group member ever survived that long anyway so I didn't get to see the "I want them to stop aspect" of what you were talking about when things worked as you wanted (Italians engaging) since they never survived for me.

"In fact, when a mission is deactivated, I believe that all the units involved should stop all their activities and wait for further orders ... which is not the case here !!! " - Yeah but that's not how it works by default.
quote:

HOW TO MAKE THE RETREAT


Just because the mission goes inactive doesn't mean the member unit is going to ignore the enemy unless their doctrine says too, and not just the mission if you're disabling mission, but perhaps then their group or unit doctrine then.

You need to trigger them to ignore the enemy and return to where you want. You may accomplish that in a couple ways I can think off off hand, probably are others.
1. At 12:05:00Z you could script change (see: ScenEdit_SetDoctrine) the mission(s) doctrine(s) to hold fire for land units at that time and stop investigating things outside it's pz (where applicable) and if you wanted set waypoint for a retreating path(if you want a specific one used), and then reverse that when you want them to re-engage again later, similar for Italian side only there you want to flip it to stop investigating outside the pz as well till it's time to re-engage later so that they return to their box.

2. You could also just have two missions (one the land strike, and one idk.. a patrol mission with an area you want them falling back to) with the settings on each as needed and then just swap the units from one mission to the other (see: ScenEdit_SetMission) at the specified times as needed on Tunisian side, and on Italian side just flip doctrine to hold (or suppose you could do the same two mission setup there as well if you wanted to avoid SetDoctrine for some reason.

3. You might be able to get them to disengage\withdraw the first time with just setting one of the withdraw damage\ammo settings but even if that works sound like it's not the specificity you desire.

4. You could take an forced RTB order approach, then cancel it once it's in a certain area, though land units don't really have bases so not sure if that'll work well for this.

5. If none of those work the way you want there are other ways but I probably better discussed in Lua forum and not here.

Parting thought that might be worth investigating. Instead of trying to time everything just right about when to end the engagements, you could poll the units for damage (or weapons counts), or use the damage trigger such that on damage trigger check amount of damage, if over desired amount, flip unit(s) to a withdraw\disengagement mission that sends them back to a base area, upon entering base-area optionally rearm and\or repair unit to desired amounts and then flip unit(s) back to engagement\patrol mission. Though more 'work' that might be a better option for the sort of loop you want.


quote:

0014583 ???
What does il mean ?


It's an internal issue tracking number assigned to this thread\issue by the developers. I presume it may be about the mobile units not being engaged without opportunity targets being checked aspect for ASuW (Ground) missions, or perhaps more granular speed control for ground units on ASuW (ground) missions. *shrugs*





< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 6/1/2021 4:38:57 PM >

(in reply to WSBot)
Post #: 6
RE: About ground combat - 6/1/2021 7:22:05 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve04

Then you KnightHawk75 for testing my scenario !
You noticed some interesting things and I learned that a unit in AsuW Patrol does not fire, unless the Engage Opportunities option has been activated. At the same time, this shows that it is useless to have activated the Self Defense at Max range option in the ROE WRA (I wonder then what it is for ..).
I have also had confirmation that the approach speed of a ground Group in Strike mission varies and passes under the control of the AI, from the moment the group itself enters Engage Offensive mode.
However, I do not agree with what you say regarding the deactivation of the Tunisian mission M113 vs. Dardo.
You wrote:
"If you mean the generic mission deactivation time for the M113 vs. Dardo at 12:05:00Z on the Tunisian side, it disables itself as instructed when I ran it."
But I wrote in this thread:
"After the set time (5.00 min.) the Tunisian mission becomes "inactive", this is confirmed both by the mission window and by the Group/units Status, but in reality nothing happens, in the sense that the two M113s continue to fire until have ammo, are alive or as long as there is something to hit."
In fact, when a mission is deactivated, I believe that all the units involved should stop all their activities and wait for further orders ... which is not the case here !!!
And this is not of little importance, because it directly involves and influences the second phase of the scenario, that is, HOW TO MAKE THE RETREAT OF THE M113 GROUP ?

I attach a screenshot that demonstrates how, after 5min 20sec, despite the mission being correctly "inactive", as stated in the Unit Status, the two M113s continue to fire with the enemy units...




quote:

should stop all their activities


No, this is not the way it is designed. This behavior would have strike aircraft turn around and fly home without defending themselves while being engaged by defenders, land units ignoring nearby units shooting at them, ships ignoring nearby aircraft as soon as their ASuW patrol is over... etcetera.

A unit with an allocated target will fire its weapons until the salvo quantity is met, the target is destroyed, the target is removed from the allocation list, or no more weapons are available.

_____________________________


(in reply to Steve04)
Post #: 7
RE: About ground combat - 6/2/2021 10:24:53 AM   
Steve04

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 12/1/2020
From: Firenze - Italia
Status: offline
Ah ... WOOW!
This thread is proving very fruitful - from my point of view, at least ... - as it allows me to better understand how a series of commands / options work which, at first glance, would seem to have to give a result but which, in reality they give a different one.
Interesting is Rory's clarification regarding the deactivation function of a mission.
In fact the manual only says that "Activation / Deactivation Time. "This changes the time when an active mission switches off or an inactive one switches on." Having said that it seems a different thing, but I realize that, once again, the functions were born above all for the behavior of aircraft or ships and their use with land unit is discovered, tested and implemented in a sort of "work in progress".
I hope that the deactivation function can find a practical use also for land missions.
I want to thank Knighthawk75 who, as always, spends his time to solve the problems of others (even if his advice will not only serve me ...), with great competence, I would also like to say perhaps with "too much" competence, especially for certain LUA SCRIPT solutions that for me are a little ... hard!

So, now I would like to restrict the question to the unresolved problem which is precisely: HOW TO STOP THE ATTACK (OF THE M113s) (and then, subsequently, make them withdraw).
1-A sentence from Rory struck me when he says that
"A unit with an allocated target will fire its weapons until the salvo quantity is met".
"Salvo quantity", here, this could be a good starting point. I think the section in which to act are the parameters indicated in the WRA. If I limit this amount, a unit automatically could stops firing ... ? So what is the parameter on which to intervene? I tried to limit the "Weapons for salvo" to 1 rnd but they slow rate of fire but keep firing ....
2 - Another way to stop the attack, would be to induce the units to retire from the battle, before being slaughtered ... So I tried to act on the parameters of the Withdraw & Redeploy specific section, both on the percentage of damage and offensive and defensive weapons, but ... even that seems not to work (sic ...)
3 - I now come to what would have been my initial idea, which consists of three steps: freeing units, reassigning them to another mission and rearming / repairing them.
Here we have a very powerful function which is "unassign". If, as player, I take control of the Tunisia side, everything is very easy ... just select the units (M113s), press the "U" key and voilà ... The mission is emptied of all contents, because it no longer has any units assigned. The units, thus free from any order, can be reassigned (this time with a simple LUA action ...) to another mission (Retreat to a certain area).
Everything seems so easy, but ... the mission is AI and the player cannot intervene ... So here's the problem to solve:
- CREATE AN EVENT THAT REALIZES THE UNASSIGN FUNCTION
Unfortunately, among the actions I do not see one suitable for the purpose. However, I believe that with LUA script it could be not difficult. Since you can easily assign units to a mission, perhaps the opposite can also be done ...

< Message edited by Steve04 -- 6/2/2021 10:29:16 AM >

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 8
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