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RE: Thoughts on Soviet Organization in 1942: The Soviet Side of CapandGown's German mirror match

 
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RE: Thoughts on Soviet Organization in 1942: The Soviet... - 6/5/2021 1:09:38 AM   
CapAndGown


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Some responses from your esteemed opponent:

post #3
1) Moscow was not evac'ed because it didn't need to be. The Germans got no closer to Moscow than the Volga east of Rzhev. They then backed off into their winter quarters. This left plenty of time to evac those factories should the need arise.

post #5
2) Bitburger noted during his winter offensive that his experience seemed to show that tank battalions were causing more casualties than motorcycle regiments, so he started building tank battalions. I did not know about all the tank brigades. Planning too far ahead, IMO, though perhaps he was trying to absorb all the tanks rolling off the production lines. I would think that all these tank units would start to create a strain on the vehicle pool. At any rate, I too would not have built that many tank units.

3) Tank armies are nothing special as far as I can see. They offer a +1 roll to admin rolls for motorized units. That is cool for movement, supply and replacements, but does not impact combat power directly. Guards armies also offer a +1 roll for admin for non-guards units. (Of course, I doubt there are any guards armies at this point.) Plus they have a command capacity of 21. Nor were Tank armies available at the time you took over the game.

4) One reason to assign tank corps to Stavka at this point in the game is because they are still basically unusable. Their experience is low so they probably still need to train up, plus their TOE is so small that they offer almost no combat power. If used for exploitation (which seems unlikely at this stage) they have no defensive power. Might as well let them sit well behind the lines and train.

post #6
5) Stavka is a useful place to leave units assigned to while they are training up and before they get assigned to front line armies. In my Soviet game, when divisions on the front line get destroyed, I have divisions currently assigned to Stavka that have been trained up go join the army which lost some of its divisions during the current turn.

post #8
6) I agree with your decision to take those brigades off the front with the Finns are replace them with forts. Doesn't seem particularly gamey to me. This is precisely the kind of use the Soviets put fortified regions to.

post #11
7) "Is it too gamey to build defenses this far in the rear over the winter?" I hope not! (See my Soviet AAR)

post #29
8) "BTW the Soviets did the same thing in 1942 in real life once Case Blue started. The strength of the German spearhead – with just 2 tank armies, mind you – reached all the way to Grozny and Stalingrad while the Soviets pulled back and bided their time. Granted, they did launch a major attack in the north with Operation Mars,"

Some commentary on this:
The Russians did launch lots of offensives during the spring and summer. They launched several attempts to close off the Demyansk pocket and encircle the Rzhev salient all through the summer. It wasn't call the Rzhev meat grinder for nothing. They also tried to relieve Leningrad. And off course, there was the disastrous second battle of Kharkov which cost the Soviets 125k casualties right where the Germans were about to launch case blue. Even their retreats in the face of the panzers during the early stages of case blue seem to have been local decisions, not directives from Stavka. Certainly, by the time the Germans reached Kalach Stalin had had enough and issued the famous "Not one step back" order. Plus, after the Germans reached Stalingrad the Soviets launched numerous failed offensives from the north to try to break the siege.

Thus, I would not say the Soviets "bided their time." If anything they were--as always in 41-42--too offensively oriented, at least for the capability of their troops.

Also, Mars happened almost simultaneously with Uranus.

post #30
9) You, Bitburger and others mention Rostov a lot. Not sure why. It is the gateway to the caucuses, but as a population center it is matched by Tambov, Stalingrad, Voroshilovgrad, Voronezh, Tula, etc. Doesn't seem all that special to me. (Of course, I will grab a population center if I can!)

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Post #: 31
RE: Thoughts on Soviet Organization in 1942: The Soviet... - 6/5/2021 2:31:15 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Thank you for the commentary.

I think squeezing out every possible advantage from the tank corps is very useful and pushing the tank corps to Tank Armies assigned to STAVKA frees up your mobile Fronts.

I am going to have to start building rifle brigades throughout the fall and winter so that the army can transition to rifle corps in 1943. I just don't think the 3 division rifle corps is very efficient and wastes a lot of manpower. Of course, building another 100-150 rifle brigades is also wasteful in terms of AP, but you can keep those rifle brigades at minimum TOE and just use them for merging purposes. Yes, that may drag down your morale and experience a bit in your new rifle corps.

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Post #: 32
Turn 57 - 6/7/2021 3:02:26 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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Start of Turn 57 - an unfortunate encirclement but at least far from any major areas.




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RE: Turn 57 - 6/7/2021 3:08:47 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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Defenses are still strong in this area. 2 cavalry armies, a full guards corps army, and 3 newly arrived armies to provide in-depth reserve. Major counterattacks will be needed soon to soak off German movement points.

Unfortunately, the increased emphasis further north has left the Southern Front vulnerable.





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< Message edited by JoeLewis -- 6/7/2021 3:09:24 AM >

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Post #: 34
RE: Turn 57 - 6/7/2021 3:10:21 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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This attack engenders a lot of emotion: rage, frustration, but also some relief. Sending so many mechanized units this direction means that Moscow is likely safe from a major attack for a few more turns. In addition, these units will need a few turns to recover their MP and fuel because of the distance from the attack and their proximity to the pocket.

Yes, this is not a good development especially since I did not expect an attack here. Most of the Donets Line is now kaput and we will need to use a lot of rail to reinforce the Don and Stalingrad areas,

Oh, we need to evacuate the Stalingrad factories, too!





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Post #: 35
RE: Turn 57 - 6/7/2021 3:13:19 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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This encirclement made me wonder if I made a mistake transferring all those cavalry corps north to Saransk and abandoning Bitburger's well-developed fortifications on the Don Line.

\Even though the cavalry armies have not been committed and are just marching north and south, they are still free as a strategic reserve. Massive reinforcements are shipped to Stalingrad which is the next priority for reinforcements. I transfer a few armies back south to Stalingrad. Marshal Ney would be proud of me for just marching back and forth without fully committing to either major offensive.

Also, more tank HQs are being built to strengthen the tank armies!





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Post #: 36
RE: Turn 57 - 6/7/2021 3:14:49 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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The Transcaucasus and Caucasus Fronts have to really extend to cover down towards Stalingrad. A light screen is put out to provide more digging time and space.

I made a mistake by not forming Guards rifle corps here and moving them north as soon as I started this game.




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Post #: 37
RE: Thoughts on Soviet Organization in 1942: The Soviet... - 6/7/2021 5:07:37 AM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JoeLewis

I am going to have to start building rifle brigades throughout the fall and winter so that the army can transition to rifle corps in 1943. I just don't think the 3 division rifle corps is very efficient and wastes a lot of manpower. Of course, building another 100-150 rifle brigades is also wasteful in terms of AP, but you can keep those rifle brigades at minimum TOE and just use them for merging purposes. Yes, that may drag down your morale and experience a bit in your new rifle corps.


A couple of ideas:
1) You just lost a couple of tank brigades. These are prime candidates for disbanding before they suck up any man power or vehicles. Any brigades that were recently reformed and still have low experience also would be good candidates for disbanding.

2) Instead of building rifle brigades how about this: you just lost like 11 rifle divisions that will return very shortly. Keep their max TOE at 20% and let them train up. Then when they have decent experience use them to make rifle corps. Basically, these low TOE divisions could be used as a substitute for brigades. (This assumes you currently have adequate unit density.)


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Post #: 38
RE: Thoughts on Soviet Organization in 1942: The Soviet... - 6/7/2021 2:30:46 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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I think the idea of unit density is very interesting. Usually my Soviet armies are maxed out with 9 infantry divisions each for the 18 CP max. However, Bitburger's armies tended to have 8 divisions and 2 tank brigades. You could use those 8 divisions to form 3 rifle corps if you added just one more rifle brigade for a CP of 14. However, those tank brigades will likely be used in tank pure armies by 1943. So let's say you are at 12 CP with Bitburger's approach. You still have 6 CP to play with and you are wasting a spot for a rifle corps and maybe an artillery/rocket division later on. Soviet Armies are very important because of how big the army gets later on and the tendency to go over Front limits or just attach HQs to STAVKA.

Instead, if you build 4 scratch rifle brigades and attach them to those 8 divisions you can form 4 rifle corps for 16 CP and keep the tank brigades in those armies ... for now. Eventually I do like to put some type of artillery division or even a spare rifle division to fill out my armies.

The recently destroyed divisions are more valuable forming the basis for rifle corps since these divisions come back for free as long as you are sitting at 0 AP at the end of your turn. I have started building a few rifle brigades every turn and we will see how the army looks by the middle of 1943 as a result.

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Post #: 39
RE: Thoughts on Soviet Organization in 1942: The Soviet... - 6/7/2021 2:59:02 PM   
CapAndGown


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I guess I wasn't clear. Here is a more complete process for making rifle corps on the cheap(er).

When these destroyed divisions come back they will be at 20% max TOE and assigned to Stavka. Leave them at 20% max and assigned to Stavka. They then sit in the rear training. When their morale and experience have gotten close to national morale (getting experience up takes longer than getting morale up) then those shell divisions can be assigned to an army where you have a couple of full strength divisions you want to use for a corps. This way they are not taking up any CP from an army until you are ready to make a corps. The Army needs 4 CP for the two full strength divisions. When you assign the shell division to the army that temporarily goes up to 6. But then you make the corps and it goes right back down to 4. It should take the same amount of time to train up a new rifle brigade as it does one of these shell divisions.

Any way, I thought it might be better to use those AP to make motorized/mechanized brigades.

Also, when I refer to unit density, I am talking about the number of units on the map, not where they are assigned. For instance, in my Soviet game I don't want any fewer units right now; my rifle brigades (which are all assigned to Stavka) are either maintaining or building forts. To free up rifle brigades for making corps, what I am doing is creating a fort unit on hex where I have a rifle brigade and the fort level is 3.10. Next turn, the fort level will have risen to above 3.10 and now I can disband the fort and the brigade can leave the hex to go join a corps since forts above level 3.1 do not decay.

< Message edited by CapAndGown -- 6/7/2021 3:04:19 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Thoughts on Soviet Organization in 1942: The Soviet... - 6/8/2021 3:11:25 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Yes, I agree with most of what you are saying. My unit density will go down a lot more if I use 3 rifle divisions per corps, esp. since Bitburger only had about 25 rifle brigades total. That was part of the reason behind building rifle brigades.

In addition, my point was that those reserve divisions come back for free so I think it is more cost efficient to do the 2 division + 1 rifle brigade I built.

I was also hesitant to fully commit to mechanized brigades considering how much armor is already in the field right now. I think that I just need to finish forming tank corps or merging those brigades in 1942.

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Post #: 41
Turn 58 - 6/9/2021 3:27:11 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Start of Turn 58 - not a lot of major encirclements this turn thank goodness.

60 AP available:
25 for 1 Tank Army HQ
20 for 1 Rifle Corps
5 for 1 rifle brigade (for eventual corps formation)
2 for SUs
8 for reorganization changes and reattaching units

A lot of dead Soviets thanks to the destruction of several armies in the southern pocket. I also lost 800 planes since I left ground support on and too many airbases close to the frontlines.

A lot of incoming rebuilt formations. They will have 10 turns until mud and then nearly 20 turns (5 mud, 3 snow) until blizzard.

A division recovers about 3 EXP and 3 morale per turn, so that can bring most of them up to 40 EXP/45 morale given time.






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< Message edited by JoeLewis -- 6/9/2021 3:35:37 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Turn 58 - 6/9/2021 3:28:06 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Finnish Border:

No fighting anywhere west or northwest of Moscow. 15 forts are now in place but I forgot to set them to 35% TOE on one turn so a lot of them are foolishly fully manned. Oh well.

At least 11 rifle divisions and 7 rifle brigades have been pulled off this line.







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Post #: 43
RE: Turn 58 - 6/9/2021 3:29:10 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Saransk Front

5 infantry divisions surrounded this turn, but I was able to break 2 of them out. I think the Germans are planning to attack east instead of north. There are some highlighted weak areas, but the 2nd and 3rd lines are all 20+ CV strength and relatively strong … for now.

I am still worried that CapandGown plans to extend east for an ultimate attack north to Moscow.

Their tanks are still really spread out and on the front lines. They have not made a lot of gains in this area other than isolating a few random divisions.

In addition, attacking Moscow from this direction is odd because it still has rail and supply from the north. Pushing further northeast just spreads the Germans out more and lets me concentrate my best units in this area.





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RE: Turn 58 - 6/9/2021 3:30:26 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Ok, my center-south was gutted last turn with two whole armies encircled.

I imagine the next main attack will come somewhere in this area around the Khoper River. A lot of this infantry is just playing a screening role. I will switch to checkerboard to provide more depth.





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RE: Turn 58 - 6/9/2021 3:31:53 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Ok, I got paranoid and abandoned the Khoper River Line from the previous post. We are still a long way away from fighting on the Volga River, and any penetration or attack in this area can be countered by almost all my cavalry and tank armies. That was the issue with some of the other encirclements: they were too far away from strong counterattacking support.

In the meantime, I will continue to trade space for time. I need to survive 10 more turns with some semblance of an army.





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RE: Turn 58 - 6/9/2021 3:32:40 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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An attack in the Stalingrad area will take a few more turns to materialize while the infantry catch up and convert hexes.

In fact, an attack in this area looks really unlikely just based on the poor rail.





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< Message edited by JoeLewis -- 6/9/2021 3:34:05 PM >

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RE: Turn 58 - 6/9/2021 3:34:47 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Southern Don looks fine right now. I need to get these guards divisions out of here. I have 1 Guards Corps and the ability to form 3 more just with these 6 divisions. They need to get on rail and move north ASAP. I should have done this move much sooner.





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Turn 59 - 6/14/2021 4:10:42 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Turn 59 begins.

According to the calendar there are ten more turns until mud. I really hate 1942!

60 AP available
40 on 2 x Guards rifle corps
14 on transferring units around
2 on Support Units for Rifle Corps
4 on forts in Leningrad (there are a lot of rifle brigades in the Leningrad urban complex that I need to shift east to form rifle corps)

You can see that Bitburger left me a huge pool of manpower (500k in reserve) and armaments (1.2 million) so I am not worried about keeping the entire army on 100% TOE right now and fully rearming my destroyed divisions on the turn they come back in. Those units will sit on REFIT on rails far from the front lines to regain morale and experience anyways. The OOB has not swung too radically away from me despite the loss of 2-3 armies last turn.







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RE: Turn 59 - 6/14/2021 4:11:53 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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A few more divisions surrounded this turn. No big deal since they are exposed in the open and not even assigned to an Army HQs right now. A lot of my weak divisions are with Moscow MD or Moscow Defensive Zone so they have very poor CV values. These are just screening units to absorb German attacks and prevent a breakthrough, which they have managed to do.




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RE: Turn 59 - 6/14/2021 4:13:09 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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The center-south looks ok for right now and I did not want to retreat all the way back to the Volga River just yet. I think I can make a good fight of it west of the river, but German armor locations make an attack this way look unlikely.




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RE: Turn 59 - 6/14/2021 4:20:25 PM   
JoeLewis

 

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Despite my Southern Front getting hammered over the past few turns, I have started the process of shifting these rifle guards corps and divisions north to fight the central German offensive.




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Turn 60 - 6/15/2021 1:16:22 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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Turn 60 (9 turns from mud!)

High casualties this turn from the six or so divisions surrounded last turn.

60 AP this turn:
40 on 2 x rifle corps
10 on new fighter squadrons and some reorganizing
10 on cranking down Rail Reserve again back down to 10% to enable better supply throughput

Saratov and Engels' factories evacuated this turn.




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Post #: 53
RE: Turn 60 - 6/15/2021 1:17:53 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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Really not sure where the next main attack will come from. There is a lot of armor north and around Penza, so a major encirclement in the Penza region seems likely. I thought about pulling back but figured it was better to keep these forward positions heavily manned. There are secondary and tertiary lines everywhere and I have also railed 4 new Rifle Guards Corps northeast of Penza from the Stalingrad area. In addition, most of 7th Independent Army from Finland is here now and a few scratch divisions brought back to full strength. Finally, the 4th Tank Army has been formed providing even stronger defenses.

A forward defense is risky but they don’t have a lot of infantry and their front lines are badly stretched as it is.





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RE: Turn 60 - 6/15/2021 1:19:26 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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I was worried the Germans might launch a major prong south of Penza between the Uza and Medveditsa Rivers. However, the bulk of their infantry and armor are not really here. They could push into that area but couldn’t reinforce such a breakthrough (I don’t think). However, that issue is why you see some tank corps and rear rifle divisions organized for defense. Keeping units west of the Volga saves their MPs for counterattacks.





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Post #: 55
RE: Turn 60 - 6/15/2021 1:20:53 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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Very static here after the encirclements at Stalino and of Southern Front. A major attack around Rostov might happen but should be easily thrown back. I am not sure why the Germans have a solid front line remaining relatively static. This is their offensive season! Move those men north or south for a major push somewhere. It seems as if they are just going to dig in, but I am happy if they are willing to sit back on the defensive. German units won't hold up in 1943 and 1944 even with strong defensive positions.

Stalingrad’s factories have been evacuated. The tank and Guards rifle corps here were wasted and moved north.





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Turn 61 - 6/17/2021 2:37:21 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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Turn 61 begins with no new encirclements. I always breathe a sigh of relief when that happens. One encirclement is a statistic. Several encirclements are a tragedy.

Manpower is climbing back up very quickly with the replenished divisions being automatically set to 100% TOE. I have the manpower to spare and these divisions are all slowly walking on rails to the front lines. I am hoping they become usable in terms of Experience and Morale by the start of the winter. Mud is 8 turns away!

AP spending this turn (60 total)
20 On 1 Guards Rifle Corps
25 On a Tank Army (need two more)
4 on Support Units
9 on new airbases and planes
2 on reorganizing





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Post #: 57
RE: Turn 61 - 6/17/2021 2:37:57 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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German manpower is far too high, but the plan is to close the front lines everywhere and drive up attrition losses in the winter.

However, if I manage to keep all my units intact then the size of the Red Army will become inexorably bigger. I still have 57 divisions assigned to Stavka.

I need to spend some time building 1-2 rifle brigades per turn at low TOEs just to help form more rifle corps. The goal has to be for the frontline units to form corps as soon as possible.

This Army has been at max TOE all year long. A mistake?

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Post #: 58
RE: Turn 61 - 6/17/2021 2:39:11 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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Wide snapshot of the campaign so far. Static in the north (for now) and I lost a lot of territory between Moscow and Rostov. I still hold those cities and the Volga River line.

The rest of the front lines are very static. I don’t see how the Germans can make a major push to Moscow this year, unless they plan a winter offensive. They are getting dangerously close to Gorky now so I have begun evacuating that town. I would rather lose production for 20 turns than altogether!

Besides, that kind of factory withdrawal always gives you a nice winter boost!





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Post #: 59
RE: Turn 61 - 6/17/2021 2:42:53 AM   
JoeLewis

 

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The Oka River Basin is mostly under German control now but I keep feeding my Moscow MD and Moscow Defensive Zone units into the front lines. I should have built HQs for my infantry divisions a lot sooner in this game.

The Germans are triple stacked so they cannot pull back panzers without wasting a lot of MP. That means that a lead panzer must waste time clearing out these divisions. These units aren’t going to be my Guards units anyways.

Defenses are now organized by like units to avoid cross-command penalties. The heavy corps are in the secondary and tertiary lines in most places, with my cavalry corps as my counterattacking reserve.

A lot of units are put onto reserve mode esp. when double/triplestacked in the rear areas





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