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Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 2:32:56 PM   
Lobster


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Someone asked about this so I thought I would post it for everyone. It's only Barbarossa btw. 15 June to 31 December.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
BTW, weren't you working on a scenario of the entire WWII from 1933, world scale at 2.5km per hex? Whatever became of that? I was SO looking forward to playing it.



I'm assuming sarcasm there but as long as you bring it up. Deploying the Axis. I have no good information about deployment at the regimental scale so I go with divisional. I'll let the Axis players decide how to deploy divisional, corp and army assets depending on historical assigned areas of operation since there's no hard information to go on. They'll have a week to do this. The turn before the invasion, 21 June, the Soviets will be allowed to move each frontier unit one hex in either direction parallel to the frontier. This will keep the German player from playing the opening move over and over and over again to get that perfect first turn move that some people thinks make them extra good generals. Variety is the spice of life.

I was concerned I wouldn't have enough formations for the Soviets but squeezed it in at 980 formations with each infantry/mech/tank division in it's own formation.

You can get a good idea of the immensity of the undertaking on the German side.







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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 4:33:43 PM   
Zovs


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Wonder if it will be even playable, not only for the old and aging TOAW system, but for the humans as well. Let alone the AI.

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 5:23:27 PM   
ncc1701e


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Impressive map. would it be possible to extend the map west towards Berlin one day? Or, is it already limited by what the game engine can do?

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 7:03:37 PM   
gliz2

 

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This a great work 👍
Any particular need to have some much ground east of Moscow?

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 7:58:09 PM   
Zovs


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The map is fantastic, but I worry with the size of the map and terrain, with objectives and victory location and then with the maxing of formations and zillion of units, will the game even work or just crash?

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 9:17:43 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Wonder if it will be even playable, not only for the old and aging TOAW system, but for the humans as well. Let alone the AI.


It has the same AI as FitE2.

Won't be any different than playing that. Well, it will be a bit less time.

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 9:18:35 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Impressive map. would it be possible to extend the map west towards Berlin one day? Or, is it already limited by what the game engine can do?


We can't make maps that large.

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 9:25:30 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

This a great work 👍
Any particular need to have some much ground east of Moscow?


Just taking Moscow would not have been enough. The population centers between Moscow and Gorkiy also need to be dealt with not to mention the factories around Gorkiy. Like any board game there are levels of victory and defeat.

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 9:29:12 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

The map is fantastic, but I worry with the size of the map and terrain, with objectives and victory location and then with the maxing of formations and zillion of units, will the game even work or just crash?


Mine doesn't. Years ago I could run the old FitE on my old piece of crap machine and it would take forever to load but it wouldn't crash my machine. No TOAW scenario ever has regardless of it's size. Maybe if you have an old 486 or something like that with 128k memory.

Sounds like you don't trust Bob's and Ralph's work. They do good work.

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 9:51:02 PM   
Zovs


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I currently have 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD and 3 cores. I think the code is ancient and over loaded and won’t be able to perform very well with the size of your map, how many units do you have? I think it will break Elmers little mind...

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 11:30:22 PM   
Peresvet

 

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Truly impressive scale and level of details! There's one thing that a little annoys me though. It seems that most (if not all) wargame WWII maps tend to depict reservoirs that were yet non-existent during the war. For example, only 1 out 6 reservoirs on Dnieper existed during the war. Most Volga reservoirs were also constructed only after the war. However, it seems that all today's reservoirs are present on this map.

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/25/2021 11:46:40 PM   
Lobster


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You're seeing swamp aka flooded marsh. The only dam is at Zap.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 5/25/2021 11:47:15 PM >


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RE: Barbarossa - 5/26/2021 12:03:38 AM   
Peresvet

 

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Oh. I see. Yeah, it's hard to tell the difference between marsh and river at this scale :-)

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Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 3:05:56 AM   
rhinobones

 

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Like that you’re injecting some player defined deployments into the scenario and limiting the killer first move syndrome. Think there are quite a few scenarios which would benefit from your design.

In the New Patch thread post #44 you stated, “I have no good information about deployment at the regimental scale so I go with divisional”. That almost sounds like your base maneuver unit is the division. I’m probably misreading your intent; please clarify.

Regards


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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 10:09:35 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

In the New Patch thread post #44 you stated, “I have no good information about deployment at the regimental scale so I go with divisional”. That almost sounds like your base maneuver unit is the division. I’m probably misreading your intent; please clarify.



I have found only a few maps that display where individual manuever regiments on either side are deployed. These cover small areas and only one or two divisions on each side. Even less information is to be had for division/corps/army/force level support elements. So, where do you put all of that? It amounts to a huge amount of units. WitE uses a simple assignment method where you simply assign support elements to forces with no physical units involved. TOAW has no such function.

What I have done is to start the game one week before the invasion begins. For the Axis all support elements are stacked with or in the vicinity of a parent HQ unless it is specifically assigned to a different HQ when the invasion began. This one week pre invasion allows the Axis player to move support elements to areas where manuever elements belonging to a HQ are positioned. For instance if a division is part of a corps that is part of an army that is part of an army group then those support elements belonging to the corps, army or army group can be moved to the division's deployment area to support the division. Otherwise I would be dictating to the Axis player where they have to use support elements without any concrete proof that is actually where those support elements were deployed.

Further, since I don't have enough information to deploy divisonal manuever regiments divisions have deployment areas. The regiments and divisional support elements and any higher level support elements belonging to the division's hierarchy can also be deployed in that area.

I can't see any other way to deploy support elements or a division's regiments without just guessing where all of these support elements and regiments went. I feel that would be unfair to the Axis player. On a map with a larger scale it might not matter as much but when you get down to 2.5km per hex and one day turns it makes a big difference. Divisions are still deployed in areas where they appear to belong. It's not like entire army groups are allowed to redeploy. The Axis player will have to be somewhat effiecient in moving the support elements since they would want artillery to be above 100% supply. I'll probably increase Axis supply until 22 June to help with that. And honestly, the Germans didn't even have many of their divisions in their jumping off points a week before the invasion.





Attachment (1)

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 12:39:45 PM   
Hellen_slith


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SWEET! Can't wait to give a go on it :)

Me and David will give it a workout ... when's beta? 2022 sometime? Hurry up, man, I ain't gonna live forever!!

:)

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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 1:56:11 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


Me and David will give it a workout ... when's beta? 2022 sometime? Hurry up, man, I ain't gonna live forever!!

:)


You'd need to live forever to play this.

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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 2:00:26 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


Me and David will give it a workout ... when's beta? 2022 sometime? Hurry up, man, I ain't gonna live forever!!

:)


You'd need to live forever to play this.



Pfff. This is all amateur stuff. Now, if it was a 1m hex - individual soldier scale representation of the entire Eastern Front 1941-1945, then we would be talking. Anything less than that is not a suitable representation of the conflict.

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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 3:31:15 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


Pfff. This is all amateur stuff. Now, if it was a 1m hex - individual soldier scale representation of the entire Eastern Front 1941-1945, then we would be talking. Anything less than that is not a suitable representation of the conflict.


Come on- really, you need to model the individual limbs and organs so you can model the effect of various injuries.

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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 4:02:07 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


Pfff. This is all amateur stuff. Now, if it was a 1m hex - individual soldier scale representation of the entire Eastern Front 1941-1945, then we would be talking. Anything less than that is not a suitable representation of the conflict.


Come on- really, you need to model the individual limbs and organs so you can model the effect of various injuries.


I stand corrected. You are, of course, entirely correct.

I now need to ask, giving the possible usage of atomic bombs, do we dare to go to atomic particle level?

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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 4:47:48 PM   
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Don't forget to model the rear-area whores giving digital cases of the clap to the troops on r&r.

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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 7:15:41 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


Me and David will give it a workout ... when's beta? 2022 sometime? Hurry up, man, I ain't gonna live forever!!

:)


We are trying! Shoot, David plays hockey regular for his exercise

You'd need to live forever to play this.


We are trying! Shoot David plays hockey and gets out there doing the Polar Bear plunge.

And he's 64 :)

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RE: Maneuver Units - 5/26/2021 7:17:15 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


Me and David will give it a workout ... when's beta? 2022 sometime? Hurry up, man, I ain't gonna live forever!!

:)


You'd need to live forever to play this.


We are trying! Shoot David plays hockey and gets out there doing the Polar Bear plunge.

And he's 64 :)

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 23
RE: Barbarossa - 5/27/2021 4:40:58 AM   
Simon Edmonds

 

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Your map must be considered one of the wonders of the war gaming world. It's making must be a story in itself. It is a shame that the current map limitations wont let you expand it. How hard is it to change those limitations? I keep asking that question but all I ever get is crickets.

Fite is my drug of choice and I guess and I had a thought that whilst involving a s**tload of work might help with the intimidation that it's size plays. I find that is is the first couple of dozen turns that really take up the most time. Why not have a variant that starts on say the 1st of September. This would also work for what you are doing Lobster. The Russians have stabilized the line to some extent and the Germans have yet to make any irreversible choices. (I mean that in the broadest sense)

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/27/2021 8:12:07 PM   
Lobster


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At any point beyond 22 June you could only guess at unit strength. You would also be stuck with previous historical decisions and some have a distinct dislike for being stuck with history. I can understand that and there's nothing wrong with someone changing a scenario to their liking. That can be a lot of work though and breakage is a possibility.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 5/27/2021 8:14:06 PM >


_____________________________

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Barbarossa - 5/28/2021 8:30:26 AM   
gliz2

 

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Love that bit of freedom and mix up at the beginning. Shame it cannot be even more randomised.

On the effort side. It can only be guessed what would have happened should the Germans capture Moscow. From absolutely nothing to the falling of Soviet regime.
The biggest factor that worked against Germans were thy atrocities against civilians in Ukraine which turned a lot of the locals against them (Germans were mostly well received as saviours from Soviets).

My point being that Germans had no force to go as far as Vladivostok and Caucasus at the same time, and otherwise there could not have been an ultimate victory achieved (as showed by the post IWW international intervention).
Spreading the map beyond Gorki is a bit of wasted effort in my opinion and adds unnecessary additional playing space for mindless clicking.

PS. I highly recommend Across the Bug River, 1941 by Vuca Simulations. A very good board game with an interesting and well designed rules, including a Counterattack order for Soviet player (basically: Soviets must counterattack).

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 5/28/2021 9:02:54 AM >


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RE: Barbarossa - 5/28/2021 11:36:02 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2


My point being that Germans had no force to go as far as Vladivostok and Caucasus at the same time,


The Germans had no intention of going to Vladivostok; the war plan called for the Urals as the stop line. Soviet population east of the Urals was I think under forty million (including central Asia) so even if the regime had survived I doubt it could have been more than a nuisance to the Germans.

_____________________________

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 27
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