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RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 4:14:00 PM   
eskuche

 

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Yeah some force randomization might make sense, although I definitely imagine a subset of players who would abhor it. I did just the thing for War in the East (somewhat Jankily) so that the huge turn 1 for Wehrmacht wasn't just plug and play.

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RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 4:38:43 PM   
incbob


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1) Until the game makes historical decisions desirable to the player, players will not do them.
2) I posted a video on YouTube Pacific Carrier Guy that shows the Japanese player can easily invade India on the February 15th turn. Take their historical gains, defend everything, and I think I could have invaded Australia, but not in strength.

The issue with supply and logistics. (Not the "Logistics" in the game, but Logistics in the general military sense).

The 1941 scenario gives the Allies no logistics. Since they have no logistics they are no threat to the Japanese and the player knows it. The Japanese player knows he does not have to defend ANYTHING until February. Move, Attack, Then in February and March move units to defend.
The Japanese player knows that the Allies cannot do anything till April at the earliest. (The UK player cannot even place a single division in India or Australia until April)!!!!!

The Allies complete lack of logistics is then compounded by giving the Japanese logistics that even their wildest Generals and Admirals wold not have dreamed of. They knew where the oil was, but they did not invade Java until February because they did not have the logistics.

I have actually had a Japanese player invade the Marquesas Islands (far southeastern corner of map). That would have been impossible because it would have taken every tanker Japan had and then whatever force landed there would never have gotten supply.


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RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 5:02:29 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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I don't think you can do much randomizing reinforcements in the first six months of the game. It has to high a probability of crippling one side or the other to the point of making continuing the game a waste of time.

Also, think the VP victory levels need some work. This a game of "can you do better" than the Allies or Axis did.
I am not sure the UK could reach its victory level if there was no Japanese army on the mainland.
In my Japanese against Allied AI game, I am into early 45 and have taken most of China, India did push back my Japanese but I still hold Rangoon, Japanese still hold Philippines, DEI, Singapore, etc. Everything they took in 42 is still under their control. They wiped out the US and UK navies almost to the last ship. All this, which would be impossible against a player, and they barely have gotten the VP level over the major victory. It wasn't until late 44 they even got the level up to minor victory level.

< Message edited by kennonlightfoot -- 5/29/2021 5:03:16 PM >

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Post #: 63
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 5:19:20 PM   
incbob


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I want the game to resemble something close to WW2 before I worry about whether victory points are balanced.
At this point the 1941 scenario is fantasy.

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Post #: 64
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 6:07:50 PM   
incbob


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When I compare the 41 scenario to the 42 scenario I notice that in the 42 scenario the UK, Australia, and India have far more units then they could build in the 41 scenario. It is like they have been massively nerfed in the 41 scenario.

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Post #: 65
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 6:37:43 PM   
ncc1701e


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Perhaps a possible solution is to limit the number of transports and the number of landing ships available to Japan at the beginning of the scenario.
We can even put some transports and some landing ships being built in the deployment queue of the Japanese player at the start of the scenario.

This way, Japan will have to carefully selected what to invade.


Also, in Warplan Europe, there is this rule in the manual:
"A fleet may travel up to 24 hexes and invade in the same turn."

It makes me think of a new rule. Maybe a new rule should be introduced to allow an invasion only at a given distance of a port owned by the same side.
This way, Japan cannot invade California without being at Pearl Harbor.

And the US will be obliged to do the island hopping. For example, no invasion of Saipan without being at, I don't know, 20 hexes from it.

I don't know if I am clear.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 5/29/2021 6:38:47 PM >


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Post #: 66
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 6:40:22 PM   
eskuche

 

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Only invasion initiated from a port makes a lot of sense. This prevents the sit-in-the-ocean-indefinitely-and-wait-for-a-spot-to-open-up scenario.

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RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 6:41:52 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

This prevents the sit-in-the-ocean-indefinitely-and-wait-for-a-spot-to-open-up scenario.


Doing this, you are losing tons of effectiveness....

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Post #: 68
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 6:50:05 PM   
eskuche

 

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I'm trying to make an argument for your side lol. But that's good to know. I never even considered at-sea effectiveness loss because I don't think it's mentioned in the rulebook.

Edit: found it. 5%/turn. Page 40. Still not a big deal, as the benefits far outweight the negatives. Just park an understrength division in very low recon in the middle Pacific or Indian ocean to wait to take a critical port/airbase/supply point.

< Message edited by eskuche -- 5/29/2021 7:03:14 PM >

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Post #: 69
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 6:52:28 PM   
sajm0n

 

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It is mentioned

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RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 7:48:40 PM   
ago1000


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I believe Alvaro has already mentioned that he is planning some changes in the next upcoming patch with regard to slowing the Japanese advance. Am I mistaken on this point?

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RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 8:07:54 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Perhaps a possible solution is to limit the number of transports and the number of landing ships available to Japan at the beginning of the scenario.
We can even put some transports and some landing ships being built in the deployment queue of the Japanese player at the start of the scenario.

This way, Japan will have to carefully selected what to invade.

Resources for the historical Japanese opening offensive were spread dangerously thin, with just the equivalent of 11 divisions assigned to the entire Pacific and southeast Asia. The Japanese were largely able to pull this off at the time because of Japanese supremacy in the air and superiority at sea. Each advance proceeded by leaps, with each leap directed against a strategic point having an airfield that could be rapidly converted to Japanese use. Each leap was short enough to be easily covered by land-based aircraft. Air units would then move forward to the newly captured airfield to cover the next leap. The Japanese carefully planned the offensive on a strict timetable to keep the Allies off-balance and unable to redeploy in time to meet each new threat.

That's the major historical reason anyway why Japan didn't make a leap at the Netherlands East Indies on the first go. Malaya, Sarawak and Borneo had to be taken first for the desired air cover.

It also helped that most of these amphibious landings were unopposed, which was possible because the Allies did not have nearly enough troops to cover all the possible landing sites. Wake Island being the glaring exception where the Japanese direct assault attempt got a bloody nose on the first try.


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RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/29/2021 8:48:05 PM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Perhaps a possible solution is to limit the number of transports and the number of landing ships available to Japan at the beginning of the scenario.
We can even put some transports and some landing ships being built in the deployment queue of the Japanese player at the start of the scenario.

This way, Japan will have to carefully selected what to invade.

Resources for the historical Japanese opening offensive were spread dangerously thin, with just the equivalent of 11 divisions assigned to the entire Pacific and southeast Asia. The Japanese were largely able to pull this off at the time because of Japanese supremacy in the air and superiority at sea. Each advance proceeded by leaps, with each leap directed against a strategic point having an airfield that could be rapidly converted to Japanese use. Each leap was short enough to be easily covered by land-based aircraft. Air units would then move forward to the newly captured airfield to cover the next leap. The Japanese carefully planned the offensive on a strict timetable to keep the Allies off-balance and unable to redeploy in time to meet each new threat.

That's the major historical reason anyway why Japan didn't make a leap at the Netherlands East Indies on the first go. Malaya, Sarawak and Borneo had to be taken first for the desired air cover.

It also helped that most of these amphibious landings were unopposed, which was possible because the Allies did not have nearly enough troops to cover all the possible landing sites. Wake Island being the glaring exception where the Japanese direct assault attempt got a bloody nose on the first try.


When Warplan moves to sea zones a rule might be that the air supremacy is required before an invasion can take place. Not a new idea and in some wargames now.

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Post #: 73
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/30/2021 12:33:29 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

1) Until the game makes historical decisions desirable to the player, players will not do them.
2) I posted a video on YouTube Pacific Carrier Guy that shows the Japanese player can easily invade India on the February 15th turn. Take their historical gains, defend everything, and I think I could have invaded Australia, but not in strength.

The issue with supply and logistics. (Not the "Logistics" in the game, but Logistics in the general military sense).

The 1941 scenario gives the Allies no logistics. Since they have no logistics they are no threat to the Japanese and the player knows it. The Japanese player knows he does not have to defend ANYTHING until February. Move, Attack, Then in February and March move units to defend.
The Japanese player knows that the Allies cannot do anything till April at the earliest. (The UK player cannot even place a single division in India or Australia until April)!!!!!

The Allies complete lack of logistics is then compounded by giving the Japanese logistics that even their wildest Generals and Admirals wold not have dreamed of. They knew where the oil was, but they did not invade Java until February because they did not have the logistics.

I have actually had a Japanese player invade the Marquesas Islands (far southeastern corner of map). That would have been impossible because it would have taken every tanker Japan had and then whatever force landed there would never have gotten supply.




As I point out in a different thread, Japan only had 13 ships total that could support landings. All these ships were used up the 1st week of the war for their initial invasions. They then had to go back to a major port, resupply, pick up new troops before they could be used again.

Nowhere in this game is this limiting factor taken into account. So japan can invade anywhere and anytime they want with no restrictions. Sad, really sad.

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Post #: 74
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/30/2021 2:31:20 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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The largest problem with WPP is that the A.I. is not capable of complex invasions. So I had to change the opening setup to be weaker. As I improve A.I. scripts I have also changed the opening defenses. So the time table for the A.I. taking NEI and Phil matches the entry of Allied transports.

Otherwise a human player will just jam units into NEI and Phil. In these cases the complexity of the situation is so varied that I can't account for all of them.

Japan's most important weakness is it's lack of economy in the game.

I was trying to get a patch out last week till you all started flooding me with bugs which of course I have to fix before putting out a patch.
Incredible... players reporting bugs... how wude *insert picture of JarJar Binks*

So I am trying to kill all these today so I can pop up a package for approval on Monday morning with Matrix.

For all games we have a small pool of volunteers that beta test just to make sure the foundations are safe. Then after we release wonderful supportive players like everyone here find all the holes and issues in the game. That is how all game development works. WPE is in pretty good shape with the upcoming patch. I modified the UK down 100 strength points and in my game with Hadros it made a difference in the Big BEF defense. It only gets better.

At least WPP has all the bugs covered from the first 18m of WPE. So this is mostly scenario balance.

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Post #: 75
RE: 1941 needs balancing - 5/30/2021 4:45:31 PM   
FirstPappy


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Matrix Games is listed with an Ohio address. Monday is a US holiday. Hope they are given double time and a half for coming in

And a big Kudos to Alvaro for working over this Memorial Day weekend instead of enjoying that sunny South Florida weather. A lot different in the Northeast. Temps on Long Island hovering around 50 with wind and rain for last 2 days. USAF Thunderbirds airshow scrubbed both days. At least I got to see them fly near my house on Friday during practice runs.

< Message edited by FirstPappy -- 5/30/2021 5:09:37 PM >


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