Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Japanese Upkeep Oil usage

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Warplan Pacific >> Japanese Upkeep Oil usage Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/22/2021 1:51:18 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
I wanted to see if I could get a clarification of what this number means and what contributes to it.

I notice that Japan was showing a rather consistent Upkeep usage of oil each turn of around 28 which was larger than their Oil production even after capturing all the oil fields. I thought I had put all the planes and ships into ports and grounded so they wouldn't use any oil but it never drops below 28.

The manual refers to "Oil Maintenance" which uses oil based on number of units on the map. If I am following the explanation this oil use occurs even in port if the port isn't level 9. It doesn't seem to have an adjustment for size of unit (Carrier vs Destroyer). It also appears to include air units.

Oil Maintenance—All units require oil to keep them in. If no oil is available for an oil unit, the units do
not get the base recovery for effectiveness but do get the supply level and headquarters effectiveness
recovery. For land, air, and naval units in port, 1 oil stockpile of maintenance is used for every 3
units/naval groups on the map. For naval units not in port, the naval group’s oil use factor is used to
keep them at sea. Keeping naval units at sea is very expensive. Units on a map supply level 9 do not use
oil as they get supplies directly from the train. Oil maintenance reflects trucks driving supplies to the
units from the rail.


Can anyone clarify how this number is calculated and what contributes to it?
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/22/2021 2:44:48 PM   
eskuche

 

Posts: 1055
Joined: 3/27/2018
From: OH, USA
Status: offline
Yeah the understanding now is that naval/air have a minimum of 1/3 oil per turn. Land units on not-level-9 hexes also incur 1/3 oil per turn for oil delivery.

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/22/2021 2:49:32 PM   
incbob


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/23/2004
From: Columbia, Missouri
Status: offline
I have not seen land units use oil.

Naval units at a size 9 port do not use any oil.
Naval units at all other ports use 1/3 oil.
Watch you land units. Some HQ's use oil and come land units use oil. If they use oil they use oil each time they attack.

Air units use oil if they fly. That means if a TAC group, uses 3 oil, flies on your turn then flies an interception on your opponents turn it is using 6 oil.


(in reply to eskuche)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/22/2021 2:51:36 PM   
incbob


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/23/2004
From: Columbia, Missouri
Status: offline
Now that I think about it there is no way land unit, except for mechanized, are taking 1/3 oil. To many times I have used 0 oil with units on the map.

(in reply to incbob)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/22/2021 2:57:39 PM   
YueJin

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 1/5/2015
Status: offline
Yeah, as Japan I moved around 30 divisions/armies off of rail hexes for the 1942 summer offensive and didn't notice any change in oil upkeep. There's no way every counter off of a level 9 hex uses 1/3rd oil every turn if they use anything at all.

(in reply to incbob)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/22/2021 3:40:24 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 841
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YueJin



Yeah, as Japan I moved around 30 divisions/armies off of rail hexes for the 1942 summer offensive and didn't notice any change in oil upkeep. There's no way every counter off of a level 9 hex uses 1/3rd oil every turn if they use anything at all.


+1 eskuche
@YeuJin
You won't see it there. It's calculated at the beginning of the turn and is added to upkeep. Oil using units (air and land) will use up oil in movement or attack. That oil is subtracted from stockpile during the current turn. Naval units use 1/3 an oil point if they are in port calculated at the beginning of the turn as upkeep. Naval units that you move out to sea use up oil, that value is calculated at the beginning of the next turn as upkeep.

1/3 oil for land/air units off rail represents supplies being delivered to them (abstraction)by trucks. It's calculated at the beginning of the turn as upkeep.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/22/2021 3:44:37 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to YueJin)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/23/2021 2:11:03 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
I am also seeing some unexplainable ups and downs in oil production. Once dropping all the way down to 9 per turn even though I appear to control all the oil production hexes. I could see partisan activities shutting down some production but not all overseas production. Convoy lanes don't appear to be contested, more than enough merchants, and no enemy subs to stop the flow. Very strange.

Also, it looks like until Indonesia surrenders you don't get any oil from captured production but I haven't confirmed this. I just didn't see any increase as I took oil hexes until the surrender then it jumped up to 61 production.

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/23/2021 7:22:41 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
Here is what I am seeing but I can't find any reason for the numbers. They almost appear random.

First the Production display (upper right side) shows Japan producing 17 Oil with an upkeep of 26. In spite of this number being lower it did accumulate some stockpile (increased relative previous turn.

On the left upper side it show my oil convoys. If you add these numbers up I am importing 38 Oil. Where did it go?
If it is suppose to be combined with the number "from Japan" which is 15 why don't the Japanese have 53 Oil Production?
Where did the "15" from Japan come from? Japan only has on oil source which is a "3" in Aomori.

Down in the map the Japanese have control of Borneo and Sumatra. Borneo by itself should produce 25 Oil.
Sumatra has the potential to produce 32 Oil but Palembang is showing damage reducing it to 20 Oil.

The Upkeep number seems to never fall below 26 even though I can't find anything consuming Oil. In the previous turn I made sure every ship and sub were in a "9" port. All air units were set to mission. Unless Merchants, Trains and factories are using oil, I don't know where its being consumed.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/23/2021 7:49:10 PM   
sajm0n

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 5/2/2017
Status: offline
From manual:

Oil Maintenance – All units require oil to keep them in. If no oil is available for an oil unit, the units do not get the base recovery for effectiveness but do get the supply level and headquarters effectiveness recovery.
For land, air, and naval units in port, 1 oil stockpile of maintenance is used for every 3 units/naval groups on the map.

No idea why your production is only 17 though.

< Message edited by sajm0n -- 5/23/2021 7:52:28 PM >

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/23/2021 8:18:08 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 841
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
You may want to read this thread. It went dead and I don't know if Alvaro found something or not.


At the end Tyronec had to send Alvaro his game file. Seems like the same issue.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5021740



< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/23/2021 8:21:14 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to sajm0n)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/23/2021 9:16:52 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9133
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
Palembang has damage.

In the next patch I am removing Scorched Earth from NEI so this problem is avoided.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/23/2021 9:35:12 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2858
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
Do conquered territories automatically set up oil/resource convoys back to the home islands ? Or do they need to be individually set up ?

Or is oil universal and doesn't need to be transported back to the home islands being useable throughout the Empire regardless of its source ?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 12
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/23/2021 10:00:53 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 841
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Do conquered territories automatically set up oil/resource convoys back to the home islands ? Or do they need to be individually set up ?

Or is oil universal and doesn't need to be transported back to the home islands being useable throughout the Empire regardless of its source ?

all automatic.

_____________________________


(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 1:14:36 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2858
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Do conquered territories automatically set up oil/resource convoys back to the home islands ? Or do they need to be individually set up ?

Or is oil universal and doesn't need to be transported back to the home islands being useable throughout the Empire regardless of its source ?

all automatic.


Thanks ...

How about supplies going the other direction ... the game starts with supplies send to various locations .... What about when new ones are acquired ? Does one need to set up new outbound supplies to distant lands ?

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 14
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 1:29:39 AM   
sajm0n

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 5/2/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Do conquered territories automatically set up oil/resource convoys back to the home islands ? Or do they need to be individually set up ?

Or is oil universal and doesn't need to be transported back to the home islands being useable throughout the Empire regardless of its source ?

all automatic.


Thanks ...

How about supplies going the other direction ... the game starts with supplies send to various locations .... What about when new ones are acquired ? Does one need to set up new outbound supplies to distant lands ?


Nope.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 15
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 7:08:00 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4723
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: online
quote:

You may want to read this thread. It went dead and I don't know if Alvaro found something or not.


At the end Tyronec had to send Alvaro his game file. Seems like the same issue.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5021740

Yes, Alvaro said he had found something in the reported data but the actual production was accurate. So as I understand it resource oil production data and convoy data is not accurate.

I am also unclear about how oil usage works. People have posted their different understandings of how things work in this thread, some of which contradict each other, but which is accurate ?
Do naval units in a 9 level port use oil ?
Are we sure infantry units do not use oil or does it depend if they are on rail ?

(in reply to sajm0n)
Post #: 16
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 10:04:23 AM   
Uxbridge


Posts: 1457
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline
Infantry units don't use oil per se, but if they're not in a rail hex they cause the cost of 1/3 of an oil point as motorized logistics has to deal them supply.

_____________________________


(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 17
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 11:59:58 AM   
ago1000


Posts: 841
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

You may want to read this thread. It went dead and I don't know if Alvaro found something or not.


At the end Tyronec had to send Alvaro his game file. Seems like the same issue.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5021740


I am also unclear about how oil usage works. People have posted their different understandings of how things work in this thread, some of which contradict each other, but which is accurate ?
Do naval units in a 9 level port use oil ?

Yes they use 1/3 oil in port independent of size. (gets calculated at beginning of turn as upkeep.)

Are we sure infantry units do not use oil or does it depend if they are on rail ?
+1 Uxbridge



Oil using units (air and armor, mech) will use up oil in movement or attack. That oil is subtracted from stockpile during the current turn. No oil in stock pile means those units are dead in the water for that turn. Naval units use 1/3 an oil point if they are in port calculated at the beginning of the turn as upkeep. Naval units that you move out to sea use up oil, that value is calculated at the beginning of the next turn as upkeep.

1/3 oil for land/air units off rail(level 9 supply hex) represents supplies being delivered to them (abstraction)by trucks. It's calculated at the beginning of the turn as upkeep.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Yes, Alvaro said he had found something in the reported data but the actual production was accurate. So as I understand it resource oil production data and convoy data is not accurate.

In the above statement is your meaning that the trade window reflects what you should be getting (the max) if you have enough MMs, no damage, etc and not what you receive or there is a bug?




< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/24/2021 12:17:00 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 18
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 1:16:52 PM   
eskuche

 

Posts: 1055
Joined: 3/27/2018
From: OH, USA
Status: offline
Almost! At 0 oil stuff can still move if starting the turn at sea. Also do we know if they use 1/3 oil point flat or if new BB use 2/3?

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 19
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 1:24:17 PM   
sajm0n

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 5/2/2017
Status: offline
Manual says any naval unit at port uses 1/3rd an oil, not 1/3rd of their normal usage.

(in reply to eskuche)
Post #: 20
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 2:31:03 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajm0n

From manual:

Oil Maintenance – All units require oil to keep them in. If no oil is available for an oil unit, the units do not get the base recovery for effectiveness but do get the supply level and headquarters effectiveness recovery.
For land, air, and naval units in port, 1 oil stockpile of maintenance is used for every 3 units/naval groups on the map.

No idea why your production is only 17 though.


This is one of the areas I am confused on. The manual also says if your ships are in a level 9 port the 3 Units/naval use doesn't apply. So I put all my ships in level 9 ports. No change in that upkeep number.

Other type units I am not sure of. Based on the WarPlan (Europe) the upkeep would go to 0 if you didn't move your units. So far Pacific looks like it has some kind of base consumption which I can't seem to find a factor for.

(in reply to sajm0n)
Post #: 21
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 2:35:46 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

You may want to read this thread. It went dead and I don't know if Alvaro found something or not.
At the end Tyronec had to send Alvaro his game file. Seems like the same issue.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5021740


I am seeing some of this. But the math never comes out similar to what that thread showed. It is one of those if I can't figure out why the oil is being used or not showing up in Production I can't fix my strategy to correct the problem.

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 22
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 2:41:14 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

Infantry units don't use oil per se, but if they're not in a rail hex they cause the cost of 1/3 of an oil point as motorized logistics has to deal them supply.


Is there any way to tell if this is occurring?
In WarPlan infantry never used oil regardless of supply lines. Is this something new in Pacific?
The reason I am not sure of this is most of the units in China are not on or near rail lines. They should probably absorb all oil production. The Chinese army ought to just die since they don't have rail lines in most of their territory.

(in reply to Uxbridge)
Post #: 23
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 2:43:44 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
We definitely need a detail description of how the oil system works. Especially for the Japanese since they live or die on how well this resource is managed. The Allied player rarely needs to worry about Oil.

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 24
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 2:45:28 PM   
sajm0n

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 5/2/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot


quote:

ORIGINAL: sajm0n

From manual:

Oil Maintenance – All units require oil to keep them in. If no oil is available for an oil unit, the units do not get the base recovery for effectiveness but do get the supply level and headquarters effectiveness recovery.
For land, air, and naval units in port, 1 oil stockpile of maintenance is used for every 3 units/naval groups on the map.

No idea why your production is only 17 though.


The manual also says if your ships are in a level 9 port the 3 Units/naval use doesn't apply.

Can you tell me where is it in the manual, because i cant find it?

EDIT: maybe you meant this?
quote:

Units on a map supply level 9 do not use oil as they get supplies directly from the train. Oil maintenance reflects trucks driving supplies to the units from the rail.


< Message edited by sajm0n -- 5/24/2021 2:49:27 PM >

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 25
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 4:26:55 PM   
eskuche

 

Posts: 1055
Joined: 3/27/2018
From: OH, USA
Status: offline
In my experience Japan doesn’t seriously need to worry about oil. With DEI you have around 55 production and only about 40 consumption with the entire navy out. The leftover goes to air attacks.

(in reply to sajm0n)
Post #: 26
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 7:07:07 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Can you tell me where is it in the manual, because i cant find it?

Manual says: Units on a map supply level 9 do not use
oil as they get supplies directly from the train.

This is oddly worded. Does "Units" include Naval? What does it mean by "from the train".
Since I couldn't identify anything that would consume oil at the rate the upkeep was indicating, I moved all my ships to level 9 ports just in case. So far nothing I have done has lowered the "Upkeep" number below 26.

(in reply to sajm0n)
Post #: 27
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 7:11:02 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1509
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

In my experience Japan doesn’t seriously need to worry about oil. With DEI you have around 55 production and only about 40 consumption with the entire navy out. The leftover goes to air attacks.


True if production doesn't fall off. But I was seeing numbers as low as 9 in 42/43. I couldn't find a cause for this but it doesn't take long for a base upkeep of 26+ to run the Japanese out of oil at that low of production.

If I can't identify the cause, then I can't prevent it from happening. This was against the AI as Allies. A Player would have wiped me out for the length time I my air and navy was grounded.

(in reply to eskuche)
Post #: 28
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 7:16:01 PM   
sajm0n

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 5/2/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot


quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

In my experience Japan doesn’t seriously need to worry about oil. With DEI you have around 55 production and only about 40 consumption with the entire navy out. The leftover goes to air attacks.


True if production doesn't fall off. But I was seeing numbers as low as 9 in 42/43. I couldn't find a cause for this but it doesn't take long for a base upkeep of 26+ to run the Japanese out of oil at that low of production.

If I can't identify the cause, then I can't prevent it from happening. This was against the AI as Allies. A Player would have wiped me out for the length time I my air and navy was grounded.

Alvaro already pointed out that on your screen Palembang is damaged (as well as oil field near Sarawak) and that this mechanic (scorched earth) will be gone from DEI in next patch.

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 29
RE: Japanese Upkeep Oil usage - 5/24/2021 8:08:40 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 841
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
Also when checking for damage, it's good to turn units off, supply on and trade on when looking at the map.

_____________________________


(in reply to sajm0n)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Warplan Pacific >> Japanese Upkeep Oil usage Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.325