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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese

 
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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/5/2021 9:04:37 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985



Japan
China proper - 9 Armies, 3 Corps.
Manchuria and Korea: 3 Armies, 4 Corps
Forces at home/sea: 1 Army, 2 Corps, 1 Special Forces.
In total: 13 Armies, 9 Corps, Special Forces.

Additionally, 3 Carriers (6 strikes), One Medium and Tactical Bomber, one Fighter.

China
8 Armies, 15 corps. One Fighter.

At first glance, it's even 23 land units vs other 23. But if you look at composition, it's a disaster - Japan has 4 more armies and SF unit. What is more, JP has 2 offensive planes, especially effective against CHN corps.




By the way, I just realized that you neglected the fact that China gets 1 Engineers. That's not insignificant.

A neat inclusion by the devs, by the way. China is the only country who starts with Engineers, and I suppose it's a reference to the flooding of the Yellow River by the Guomindang? ;)



Edit:

The more I look into this, the more one-sided your presentation of facts seem, and you are leaving out other pivotal factors.

One thing in particular you neglect is that China gets an additional Army and 2 Corps before 1939 is over, and a Special Forces in 1940. Meanwhile, Japan gets 0 land unit addition until 1941; and those units are really intended for other fronts than the Chinese front.

TLDR: At least from a single player perspective, I am not persuaded that the game is balance tilts too heavily toward Japan. Further, I am not at this point too concerned even if this is the case, because that reflects historical reality. Finally, to the extent something needs to be fixed, I think it can be done by 1) getting rid of the extra level of Infantry Weapons for Japan (and replacing it with something else); and 2) reducing the number of overall land units for both Japan and China.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/5/2021 9:10:36 PM >

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RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/6/2021 2:21:27 AM   
DrZom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


Wouldn't "tactics" more be a province of the Infantry "Warfare" tech than the Infantry "Weapons" tech?



Precisely.

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RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/6/2021 3:37:13 AM   
Tanaka


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So all I've seen in this post is that elite players can win in China. I've only done it myself by committing everything and putting off other things. Is this really an issue? Probably not best to balance the game only off what elite Axis players can do in China and Russia...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 6/6/2021 4:03:05 AM >


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/6/2021 6:20:21 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but any elite or veteran player will wipe out China by the end of 1941 under current set up.

Here are the basic moves to do it currently. This has to be sequenced over a number of turns.

1. Redeploy army and Corps units from Manchuria.
2. Replace Japanese HQ east of Chengchow. With level 7 commander. This makes a big difference. Current one is at level 4.
3. Sequence of attack across the entire front is usually hit Chinese unit with Medium bomber followed up by 3 to four armies. You also bring in the SF unit that Japan has to lower Chinese Morale.
4. Get Japanese Aircraft carriers at full strength and tech. Use them to lower morale of Chinese units and or to finish them off. No kamikaze attacks though. Use light carrier for escort support.
5. The Japanese can destroy or severely damage a Chinese Army around Chengchow on the first axis turn if done right. Use aircraft carrier to draw out Chinese fighter. Then hit Army with medium bomber, armies, with upgraded HQ, and even the tac bomber. The Japanese can still easily destroy the 14th Chinese Corps that always gets killed on the first axis move east of Changsha.
6. Japan builds tac bomber, medium bomber, and at least one artillery unit within the first 6 months of the war. By 1941, follow sequence in step 3 above and you will wipe out the Chinese by the end of. 1941.
7. Do not worry about Nanning that much by the way. Too many people, including me in the past, send this large force to take Nanning from the south. It is better and faster for the Japanese to send 6 armies, SF, and a couple of corps to work there way west through Changsha and then southwest to Nanning. Changsha should be the first major target for the Japanese.
8. Against elite or veteran allied player Japan should could consider research and buying strategic bombers. By 1941, this will allow Japan to wipe out lots of supply and MPPs from China. As I learned against Hamburgermeat and Taifun, it is a great idea to get Japanese fighters up to level 3 for fight in Southeast Asia.
9. The strategic objective, like what almost happened in the war, is for Japan to invade Burma, take Kunming, and halt allied MPPs from getting into China. I would note that Kunming did not fall, that I know of to Japan. However, Japan launched a major offensive with something like 10 armies in 1944.


China wiped out by the end of 1941? Disagree never seen that before what player have you seen do that? MP or SP? Have a hard time believing that. Proof please...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 6/6/2021 6:22:50 AM >


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/6/2021 7:29:47 AM   
Taifun


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[/quote]

China wiped out by the end of 1941? Disagree never seen that before what player have you seen do that? MP or SP? Have a hard time believing that. Proof please...
[/quote]

My game against Cpuncher, probably the best player in this forum... China fighting with 10 units...about to lose their last Capital




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Taifun -- 6/6/2021 7:32:10 AM >


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/6/2021 10:08:07 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taifun

...Cpuncher, probably the best player in this forum... China fighting with 10 units...about to lose their last Capital





And the game should be balanced on what "the best player" can do?

Besides, isn't Urumchi the final Chinese capital? From that screenshot, it doesn't seem that the IJA will take it before the end of the year.

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Post #: 36
RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/6/2021 5:20:32 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taifun

...Cpuncher, probably the best player in this forum... China fighting with 10 units...about to lose their last Capital





And the game should be balanced on what "the best player" can do?

Besides, isn't Urumchi the final Chinese capital? From that screenshot, it doesn't seem that the IJA will take it before the end of the year.


Agreed if this is a common thing then by all means balance it but if it is just elite players I would be more careful making drastic changes...

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/6/2021 8:07:15 PM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Agreed if this is a common thing then by all means balance it but if it is just elite players I would be more careful making drastic changes...


I concur with what Tanaka has just opined. We just finished a MP match a few weeks back (OldCrowBalthazor-Allied) vs Tanaka(Axis) that went to March 1947. I have about 3000 hours invested into the SC-3 games,(Most of which is in MP matches) though out of that about 600 in WaW, and so consider myself a veteran player. Tanaka also knows his stuff.

So regarding China, at first I thought the same thing...that China was too weak...until within a year after reading and divining the reports that Tanaka had to put a significant amount of Japan's resources into his efforts and the Army. I also played China highly aggressive, to make him have to constantly throw money in that theater. China finally collapsed in 1945.

Now, I am in an MP match with a YouTuber called The Colonel, with me playing Axis. With roles reversed, I decided right out of the gate to invest heavily into aviation and naval research plus an expansion of the Navy, with all the new subs, DD's and a Carrier to be on line just before till a little after Dec 1941. This meant limiting my efforts in China, though I pushed pretty hard at times, in order to divert money for a Pacific first strategy. This strategy has payed off, and my opponent's China is contained, almost historically, while I pursue dominance over the Pacific.

I guess my point is, when seeking to address balance issues concerning China theater, (or any other), that using an example like Cpuncher or any other "Top Player" as a reference point to illustrate a balance short fall in China would be same as just inserting Chinggis Khan for him.

As a side note, I like the idea of having the Japanese Inf Weapons staring tech reduced in some fashion, with a modest boost in Infantry Warfare or something similar. Somehow, have it like Germany at the beginning of the war, where decisions on upgrading 0 level units or attacking comes up in the early turns.


< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 6/6/2021 8:09:03 PM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/6/2021 8:07:32 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

Agreed if this is a common thing then by all means balance it but if it is just elite players I would be more careful making drastic changes...


I don't think any drastic changes were proposed, and developers do not grab pitchforks that fast too. The proposal from Jackmck sounds reasonable and would make Axis player more careful.

To see whether this (Taifun's game) is a common occurence, it is worthy to check AAR's in subforum. To effectively beat China and then start a mop-up operation, Axis player has to take Chonqqing and Kunming in 1941. This way China stays without Major Capital, which spells supply issues and unit deployment may be made only in Lanchow/Urumchi, and additionally, there will be no aid from US. Let's see what happened in AAR's from good players. Date specified is for fall of Chongqing:

1. zzmzzm vs sveint - 07-8.1941, no exact date specified
2. HamburgerMeat vs clausewitz - in September 1942 Capital still intact, but Sian and Kunming gone
3. Taifun vs calcwerc - 08.1941
4. Cpuncher vs Fafnir - 08.1941
5. Taifun vs smckechnie - 08.1941

I myself lost Chongqing to Taifun in 1941 and nearly to HM in 1941 (game didn't last that long). So as you see, it's not some kind of hipster event that China is gone quickly. That's only a matter of a price to pay, and it's usually not that high.


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/6/2021 10:19:48 PM   
eightroomofelixir

 

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Another thing worth noting about the China-Japan balancing is the terrain. For instance, in the game, you can see the hexes around Changsha are relatively flat, thus making a Japanese push from Nanchang into Changsha or from Changsha into Kweichow (Guiyang) quite easy.

In reality, the province where Changsha resides, Hunan, is a very mountainous province with less than 1/4 of it being plains and river valleys. In between Changsha and Nanchang, there exists the Luoxiao Mountains,with at least 4 peaks over 2000m. The Hengshan Mountains, situated right between Changsha and Hengyang, has a peak of over 1000m. In between Changsha and Kweichow, the terrain is so mountainous that in the 1930s the place wasn't even Sinicized, dominated by the Miao people; and the road network in the region was nearly non-exist. Basically, you cannot push any modern military units larger than a division through these mountains without suffering severe logistic issues; rural southern China in the 1930-40s had a logistical situation similar to that of northern Burma, that is, a nightmare.

The same thing can be said to northern China as well. In reality, there is a massive mountain range that flanks the southern bank of the Yellow River in between Chengchow (Zhengzhou) and Si'an (Xi'an), which reduce all the possible traffic into a small strip of land. Even today all the highways and railways between Xi'an and Zhengzhou need to go through one single mountain pass, and whoever holds the pass could deny everyone coming from east. While in the game, you can see two hexes west of Chengchow just being hills.

As Platoonist said, what saved the Nationalist China IRL was a nearly undeclared truce (there was a major battle around the Three Gorges region in 1943 as the Japanese tried to directly push towards Chongqing, so not really a truce period all the way), and the terrain-logistic difficulties in China heavily contributed to this truce period as well. Even in Operation Ichi-Go, pushing west into the mountain regions was not a primary Japanese strategic objective. On the other hand, all these terrain difficulties were not properly addressed in the game, an experienced and determined Axis player can overcome the in-game logistic obstacles and push into Lanchow with ease.

< Message edited by eightroomofelixir -- 6/6/2021 10:25:12 PM >


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/6/2021 10:43:38 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eightroomofelixir

Another thing worth noting about the China-Japan balancing is the terrain. For instance, in the game, you can see the hexes around Changsha are relatively flat, thus making a Japanese push from Nanchang into Changsha or from Changsha into Kweichow (Guiyang) quite easy.

In reality, the province where Changsha resides, Hunan, is a very mountainous province with less than 1/4 of it being plains and river valleys. In between Changsha and Nanchang, there exists the Luoxiao Mountains,with at least 4 peaks over 2000m. The Hengshan Mountains, situated right between Changsha and Hengyang, has a peak of over 1000m. In between Changsha and Kweichow, the terrain is so mountainous that in the 1930s the place wasn't even Sinicized, dominated by the Miao people; and the road network in the region was nearly non-exist. Basically, you cannot push any modern military units larger than a division through these mountains without suffering severe logistic issues; rural southern China in the 1930-40s had a logistical situation similar to that of northern Burma, that is, a nightmare.

The same thing can be said to northern China as well. In reality, there is a massive mountain range that flanks the southern bank of the Yellow River in between Chengchow (Zhengzhou) and Si'an (Xi'an), which reduce all the possible traffic into a small strip of land. Even today all the highways and railways between Xi'an and Zhengzhou need to go through one single mountain pass, and whoever holds the pass could deny everyone coming from east. While in the game, you can see two hexes west of Chengchow just being hills.

As Platoonist said, what saved the Nationalist China IRL was a nearly undeclared truce (there was a major battle around the Three Gorges region in 1943 as the Japanese tried to directly push towards Chongqing, so not really a truce period all the way), and the terrain-logistic difficulties in China heavily contributed to this truce period as well. Even in Operation Ichi-Go, pushing west into the mountain regions was not a primary Japanese strategic objective. On the other hand, all these terrain difficulties were not properly addressed in the game, an experienced and determined Axis player can overcome the in-game logistic obstacles and push into Lanchow with ease.


This is all well-said, except that I find pushing into China - especially from the south and the north - already sufficiently taxing in the game due to geography. Forcing major objectives to be accessible only via a single funnel would make the game insufferable and would create even more balance issues than what may exist at the moment.

By the way, since we are on the matter of insufficient representation of topography in this game: I have to ask as a Korean national why the Yalu and Tumen Rivers are not even represented in this game? The border between Korea and China is almost continuously bisected by these two rivers; and the presence of these two rivers as barriers was at least part of the reason why the Korean people were able to maintain their independence for so long. I know it has zero impact on the game itself, but it is basically akin to have the U.S. on the map without the Great Lakes.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/6/2021 10:45:36 PM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/7/2021 1:43:52 AM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

By the way, since we are on the matter of insufficient representation of topography in this game: I have to ask as a Korean national why the Yalu and Tumen Rivers are not even represented in this game? The border between Korea and China is almost continuously bisected by these two rivers; and the presence of these two rivers as barriers was at least part of the reason why the Korean people were able to maintain their independence for so long. I know it has zero impact on the game itself, but it is basically akin to have the U.S. on the map without the Great Lakes.


You could try bringing this up with the game's developers. They are just two overworked guys, but they are pretty amendable to making changes over map oversights. It was a bit of a nit-pick, but last year I mentioned that the German-Danish border in the World War One game was actually located further north than they had it on their map. It only got moved south after the war due to the 1920 Schleswig plebiscites when that part of Germany voted to be in Denmark. They moved the border north to its proper 1914 location in the next patch.


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/7/2021 2:09:30 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


You could try bringing this up with the game's developers. They are just two overworked guys, but they are pretty amendable to making changes over map oversights. It was a bit of a nit-pick, but last year I mentioned that the German-Danish border in the World War One game was actually located further north than they had it on their map. It only got moved south after the war due to the 1920 Schleswig plebiscites when that part of Germany voted to be in Denmark. They moved the border north to its proper 1914 location in the next patch.



Ah, okay. But I am afraid that I am not likely the best person to approach them about changes, given my newbie status and my outspoken stance on certain racial epithets on this forum. It is a minor issue though; and it will affect the game only if the Soviets or the Chinese attack across Manchuria into the Korean peninsula. And at that stage, I assume Japan will be on the ropes and unable to recover anyways, even if it had the benefit of those two rivers.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/7/2021 2:10:28 AM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/7/2021 2:13:36 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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By the way, here are the Yalu and the Tumen Rivers. You can see that they almost entirely divide the Korea-China border. In fact, the two rivers form the entire border; and so it has been fixed for over 600 years.

Yalu:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Yalurivermap.png

Tumen:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Location_Tumen-River.png

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/7/2021 2:49:52 AM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/7/2021 2:25:25 AM   
DrZom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73
it is basically akin to have the U.S. on the map without the Great Lakes.


Speaking as one who lives within a short walk of one of the Great Lakes... they are a bit bigger than a river. Trust me on this.

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/7/2021 2:27:39 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DrZom

Speaking as one who lives within a short walk of one of the Great Lakes... they are a bit bigger than a river. Trust me on this.


I know! ;)

Even as rivers go, these two are not noteworthy in purely physical terms. But they are very important politically and historically, because they've set the entire border between Korea and China for over 600 years.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/7/2021 2:50:17 AM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/7/2021 2:36:22 AM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


Ah, okay. But I am afraid that I am not likely the best person to approach them about changes, given my newbie status and my outspoken stance on certain racial epithets on this forum. It is a minor issue though; and it will affect the game only if the Soviets or the Chinese attack across Manchuria into the Korean peninsula. And at that stage, I assume Japan will be on the ropes and unable to recover anyways, even if it had the benefit of those two rivers.


Well, there is always the map editor of course. It is a bit tedious to use though. My Yalu river probably isn't quite hydro-graphically correct.





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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/7/2021 2:53:49 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


Well, there is always the map editor of course. It is a bit tedious to use though. My Yalu river probably isn't quite hydro-graphically correct.






I am terrified of map editing tools! ;)

The only thing I've done with the editor is to modify unit limit, production queue, and initial unit placement. For instance, I've deleted 4 armies from Japan, and 1 army and 5 Corps from China (exact same MPPs). I couldn't delete more, because that would leave certain major cities completely undefended. I hope I didn't nerf Japan too much, as they won't be able to concentrate on any front for a while.

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/7/2021 2:28:12 PM   
Taifun


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[/quote]

Besides, isn't Urumchi the final Chinese capital? From that screenshot, it doesn't seem that the IJA will take it before the end of the year.
Agreed if this is a common thing then by all means balance it but if it is just elite players I would be more careful making drastic changes...
[/quote]

Sorry that the picture is so small, I was not allowed to upload a bigger one by the system. The game ended Dec 1941 and I was still holding Urumchi but I could not hold more than a few turns. I am not saying to change anything... I was just shown how it could be done!

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