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Fix to help China stay in the war.

 
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Fix to help China stay in the war. - 5/21/2021 4:30:38 AM   
smckechnie

 

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i thought about just posting this to the Balance thread that was started, but that has gotten pretty long.

The easy fix to help China stay in the war is to have General Joe Stilwell show up in China as a US General with the flying tigers. He probably has to show up west of Sian or somewhere that he can’t be destroyed right away. The US can then send tac air, strategic bombers, and medium bombers via India to China to stop the Japanese advance.

Why Stillwell shows up currently as a Chinese General really has made no sense to me. Of course, what really happened in the war was General Claire Chennault, started putting the flying tigers together in April of 1941. The Flying Tigers didn’t actually start doing lots of missions though until after Pearl Harbor. The Flying Tigers were disbanded and become part of the US 14th Air Force in 1942. They were mostly based out of Kunming. I would note that Stilwell was Chennault ‘s commander. So in reality the US had 2 HQ’s there by early 1942!!

This is essentially what an allied player should be doing right away in all of the scenarios by the way, sending a US HQ to China, but in the 1939 scenario, most of the time, China is already on the ropes with the Japanese marching towards Urimichi. One of my early moves now as the allies is to build a US HQ and send the HQ to the Persian Gulf area to await US entry in the war. You then land the HQ in China and SR it to border of India and China. If Kunming hasn’t been taken, you move the HQ into China and then start sending American air power in. Strategic Bombers can lay waste to Japanese supply, although not as bad as in earlier versions of the game. Of course, the Japanese counter to this is to do lots of research into fighters, Long range aircraft, and tac air.

In order to hold China in the 1942 and the 1943 scenarios getting a US HQ into China is key to the allies not losing in my opinion.
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RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 5/21/2021 5:50:17 AM   
boudi

 

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With the last patches and the Chinese HQ in South China, it's seems more difficult for the Japanese player to get a quick destruction of the whole Chinese army.

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RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 5/21/2021 1:19:30 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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And here I am thinking China needs to be nerfed...

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How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/21/2021 2:17:54 PM   
smckechnie

 

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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but any elite or veteran player will wipe out China by the end of 1941 under current set up.

Here are the basic moves to do it currently. This has to be sequenced over a number of turns.

1. Redeploy army and Corps units from Manchuria.
2. Replace Japanese HQ east of Chengchow. With level 7 commander. This makes a big difference. Current one is at level 4.
3. Sequence of attack across the entire front is usually hit Chinese unit with Medium bomber followed up by 3 to four armies. You also bring in the SF unit that Japan has to lower Chinese Morale.
4. Get Japanese Aircraft carriers at full strength and tech. Use them to lower morale of Chinese units and or to finish them off. No kamikaze attacks though. Use light carrier for escort support.
5. The Japanese can destroy or severely damage a Chinese Army around Chengchow on the first axis turn if done right. Use aircraft carrier to draw out Chinese fighter. Then hit Army with medium bomber, armies, with upgraded HQ, and even the tac bomber. The Japanese can still easily destroy the 14th Chinese Corps that always gets killed on the first axis move east of Changsha.
6. Japan builds tac bomber, medium bomber, and at least one artillery unit within the first 6 months of the war. By 1941, follow sequence in step 3 above and you will wipe out the Chinese by the end of. 1941.
7. Do not worry about Nanning that much by the way. Too many people, including me in the past, send this large force to take Nanning from the south. It is better and faster for the Japanese to send 6 armies, SF, and a couple of corps to work there way west through Changsha and then southwest to Nanning. Changsha should be the first major target for the Japanese.
8. Against elite or veteran allied player Japan should could consider research and buying strategic bombers. By 1941, this will allow Japan to wipe out lots of supply and MPPs from China. As I learned against Hamburgermeat and Taifun, it is a great idea to get Japanese fighters up to level 3 for fight in Southeast Asia.
9. The strategic objective, like what almost happened in the war, is for Japan to invade Burma, take Kunming, and halt allied MPPs from getting into China. I would note that Kunming did not fall, that I know of to Japan. However, Japan launched a major offensive with something like 10 armies in 1944.

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/21/2021 4:04:11 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but any elite or veteran player will wipe out China by the end of 1941 under current set up.

Here are the basic moves to do it currently. This has to be sequenced over a number of turns.

1. Redeploy army and Corps units from Manchuria.
2. Replace Japanese HQ east of Chengchow. With level 7 commander. This makes a big difference. Current one is at level 4.
3. Sequence of attack across the entire front is usually hit Chinese unit with Medium bomber followed up by 3 to four armies. You also bring in the SF unit that Japan has to lower Chinese Morale.
4. Get Japanese Aircraft carriers at full strength and tech. Use them to lower morale of Chinese units and or to finish them off. No kamikaze attacks though. Use light carrier for escort support.
5. The Japanese can destroy or severely damage a Chinese Army around Chengchow on the first axis turn if done right. Use aircraft carrier to draw out Chinese fighter. Then hit Army with medium bomber, armies, with upgraded HQ, and even the tac bomber. The Japanese can still easily destroy the 14th Chinese Corps that always gets killed on the first axis move east of Changsha.
6. Japan builds tac bomber, medium bomber, and at least one artillery unit within the first 6 months of the war. By 1941, follow sequence in step 3 above and you will wipe out the Chinese by the end of. 1941.
7. Do not worry about Nanning that much by the way. Too many people, including me in the past, send this large force to take Nanning from the south. It is better and faster for the Japanese to send 6 armies, SF, and a couple of corps to work there way west through Changsha and then southwest to Nanning. Changsha should be the first major target for the Japanese.
8. Against elite or veteran allied player Japan should could consider research and buying strategic bombers. By 1941, this will allow Japan to wipe out lots of supply and MPPs from China. As I learned against Hamburgermeat and Taifun, it is a great idea to get Japanese fighters up to level 3 for fight in Southeast Asia.
9. The strategic objective, like what almost happened in the war, is for Japan to invade Burma, take Kunming, and halt allied MPPs from getting into China. I would note that Kunming did not fall, that I know of to Japan. However, Japan launched a major offensive with something like 10 armies in 1944.


Thanks for giving me ideas for my opening Japan turns! ;)

We are, as often on these boards, talking about two entirely different things when it comes to balance though. You are talking mainly of MP balance; and yet I suspect the majority of the player-base is still playing the SP game. But devs tend to focus on the feedback from MP players, because MP players tend to be the most devoted player-base and the most frequent, passionate posters.

The upshot is that SP players get screwed, even though they tend to be the majority.

I see this dynamic already plaguing this game.

As for fixing Japan's supposed advantage in MP play, how about what I suggested in another thread? Take away Japan's starting tier 1 Infantry Weapons tech - which is senseless from a historical perspective - and replace it with some other things?

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/21/2021 4:15:30 PM   
boudi

 

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I agree with you, at least, about the Japanese strat bomber : a single one can in few turns totally destroy the Chinese supply network, no matter the Chinese AA network and level, giving the whole Chinese army absolutely useless.

< Message edited by boudi -- 5/21/2021 4:17:21 PM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/21/2021 4:31:26 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: boudi

I agree with you, at least, about the Japanese strat bomber : a single one can in few turns totally destroy the Chinese supply network, no matter the Chinese AA network and level, giving the whole Chinese army absolutely useless.


Where does Japan needs to bomb? I've never used strategic bombers in this game. I am a newb :(

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/21/2021 5:13:59 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL:

Where does Japan needs to bomb? I've never used strategic bombers in this game. I am a newb :(


China has two mining areas that the Japanese AI is very fond of strategically bombing. Chungking would probably be a good target too


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/21/2021 5:15:20 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

China has two mining areas that the Japanese AI is very fond of strategically bombing. Chungking would probably be a good target too



Got it - thanks! So I guess the idea is to bomb high MPP areas? Still, does strategic bombing pay off for Axis, who don't have MPPs to spare, and thus can't play the attrition game?

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/21/2021 7:19:34 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL:

Got it - thanks! So I guess the idea is to bomb high MPP areas? Still, does strategic bombing pay off for Axis, who don't have MPPs to spare, and thus can't play the attrition game?


As a strategic weapon for the Axis, heavy bombers might pay off against more industrially poor nations like China and India where MPPs are always scarce. Against industrial giants like the Soviet Union and US, not so much. Not to mention that the US is generally out of range unless the game is really going south for the Allies.

This is why rocket-V2 research is something of a dead end for Germany in this game.
For what you invest in it, the return is minimal and the decent targets in range few.


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/21/2021 8:06:00 PM   
Tanaka


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There is a very famous house rule in WITP-WITPAE that disallows strategic bombing in China haha...

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/22/2021 1:07:06 AM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

There is a very famous house rule in WITP-WITPAE that disallows strategic bombing in China haha...


Which I always found odd. The reason a lot of Chinese industry and resources start that game in 1941 in badly damaged condition is because the Japanese had waged a rather successful strategic bombing campaign in China up to that point. I guess once the game starts it becomes too effective and starts to snowball.

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/22/2021 10:53:29 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist



As a strategic weapon for the Axis, heavy bombers might pay off against more industrially poor nations like China and India where MPPs are always scarce. Against industrial giants like the Soviet Union and US, not so much. Not to mention that the US is generally out of range unless the game is really going south for the Allies.

This is why rocket-V2 research is something of a dead end for Germany in this game.
For what you invest in it, the return is minimal and the decent targets in range few.



So just for China and India. No wonder Germany doesn't get a lot of strategic bombers! ;(

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/22/2021 11:47:10 AM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73



So just for China and India. No wonder Germany doesn't get a lot of strategic bombers! ;(


Given the multifarious demands being made on the German MPP treasury in most games, German heavy bombers don't make much sense to me, anyway. Which jibes with history as the actual German He-177 heavy bomber program was something of an expensive fiasco which yielded a plane of marginal use at best.

I've seen the Japanese AI build one and use it to plink away at the Indian oil wells at Ledo and at China's few mineral resources. There at least it has a bit of an impact.


< Message edited by Platoonist -- 5/22/2021 11:48:36 AM >


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/23/2021 9:36:07 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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Good idea with this thread. One can of course discuss in detail, what makes this theater so one-sided. It boiled down even to placement of one of HQ's, which was changed (buff for China) in recent patch.

But maybe before delving deeper, it's worth to come back to basics? Let's look at forces available to each side (without garrisons).

Japan
China proper - 9 Armies, 3 Corps.
Manchuria and Korea: 3 Armies, 4 Corps
Forces at home/sea: 1 Army, 2 Corps, 1 Special Forces.
In total: 13 Armies, 9 Corps, Special Forces.

Additionally, 3 Carriers (6 strikes), One Medium and Tactical Bomber, one Fighter.

China
8 Armies, 15 corps. One Fighter.

At first glance, it's even 23 land units vs other 23. But if you look at composition, it's a disaster - Japan has 4 more armies and SF unit. What is more, JP has 2 offensive planes, especially effective against CHN corps.

I don't know much about 2nd Sino-Japanese War. But was China really that outnumbered? Of course, taking into account only forces in China proper, it's not that bad, but every competent player will have all his forces in China in about 2-3 turns. And then massacre begins.

If that wasn't enough, let's look at other JP advantages:
1. Tech advantage - difference in infantry weapons is a huge factor
2. Higher NM - 90% vs 86%. Maybe not much, but as soon CHN loses 1st NM target, it becomes death spiral.
3. Armies near Changsha have collectively 4 dots of XP. CEA itself has 2 and is main killer. CHN has none.
4. JP has rail at its disposal and can easily shift troops where they want. CHN has to force march/shift-click with fighter through mountains.
5. Place HQ in Changsha and you have a supply that JP could only dream of in China.
6. Edit: How could I forgot? 300 vs 200 MPP advantage.

Perhaps Changsha area is most problematic. IRL it fell 1944, in SC:WaW it's usually early 1940. And that's without serious dedication.

I just assume this theather wasn't balanced with transporting all troops from Manchuria in mind. But as there is no penalty, Soviets don't mind if there is Kwantung Army or just some garrison troops, so why not do it?

Don't get me wrong, I am really in favour of allowing JP to make greater progress than in real life. But this should require strong dedication and should come at cost. Now JP takes CHonqing in 1941 rendering CHN nearly useless, and still can take all Pacific targets, then India and/or USSR. Bit much from a country which was probably strained to limits already in 1941.

< Message edited by Marcinos1985 -- 5/23/2021 9:42:59 PM >


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/23/2021 10:46:18 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985



I don't know much about 2nd Sino-Japanese War. But was China really that outnumbered? Of course, taking into account only forces in China proper, it's not that bad, but every competent player will have all his forces in China in about 2-3 turns. And then massacre begins.


The Nationalist Chinese inducted a whopping 14 million men between 1937 and 1945. However, peak strength never exceeded 6 million men which tells you something about the brutal causality rate. Chinese military leadership was shambolic. At the army and division level it was characterized by its sheer ineptitude. Except for a core of elite officers trained at the academies at Whampoa or Nanking, most general officers were amateurs, and all suffered from the lack of a competent staff. There were nver enough rifles to equip most of the soldiers. Nor was their sufficient ammunition. One American observer estimated that a Chinese division had one-third to one-sixth the combat effectiveness of a Japanese division.

Ultimately what saved China in the actual war with Japan was that there was something close to an undeclared truce after the Japanese advance on Changsha was turned back by the Chinese in the spring of 1941. After that here were no further major campaigns in China until the Japanese Icho-go offensive of 1944. The campaigns the Japanese did wage there between 1941 and 1944 were more foraging expeditions than battles. They had no greater strategic objective than to keep the countryside in terror, to sack the fields and towns for rice, to keep the Chinese troops at the front off-balance, and to train their own green recruits under fire. And even the 1944 Icho-go offensive as successful as it was in the beginning eventually bogged down under its own logistical difficulties.

However, this undeclared truce never happens in the game, nor would such a truce make any sense to players. So, Japan just pushes and pushes until China collapses because of its meager resources. Lulls in military history are difficult to simulate because they may have made sense to the participants at the time, but they seem completely illogical in a game setting with 20/20 historical hindsight.





< Message edited by Platoonist -- 5/23/2021 10:47:21 PM >


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/23/2021 10:58:51 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

I don't know much about 2nd Sino-Japanese War. But was China really that outnumbered? Of course, taking into account only forces in China proper, it's not that bad, but every competent player will have all his forces in China in about 2-3 turns. And then massacre begins.



In the actual theaters of war, China out-numbered Japan in manpower; but I am fairly certain that the Japanese army out-numbered its Nationalist counterpart, if we count all Japanese units in Manchuria, Korea, and the Japanese islands as well. The Kwantung and Chosen ("Korea") armies alone, if I recall correctly, numbered over a million combined.

There are two other considerations as well. First, Chiang Kai-shek really did not have a meaningful centralized control of the Chinese forces; so the Chinese could not realistically concentrate forces against the Japanese in enough numbers to matter, among other things. China at this point was a collection of personal fiefdoms. Second, the Nationalist military was abysmal in quality - both in terms of equipment and training and fighting spirit of its men. So it doesn't make sense to compare the Chinese and the Japanese by counting manpower or the number of division at this juncture.

In short, the game properly replicates the comparative military capabilities of China and Japan in 1939. In fact, China is too strong relative to its historic power. Of course, the difference is that the human player in this game can opt to go "all-out" against China in a way that Japan could not or at least did not in history. But I am not sure whether that should be factored in terms of balance or not.


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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/23/2021 11:06:10 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

One American observer estimated that a Chinese division had one-third to one-sixth the combat effectiveness of a Japanese division.



Bingo. Hence, I said it is meaningless to count manpower or divisions when you compare two military forces that are this far apart in quality.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

Ultimately what saved China in the actual war with Japan was that there was something close to an undeclared truce after the Japanese advance on Changsha was turned back by the Chinese in the spring of 1941. After that here were no further major campaigns in China until the Japanese Icho-go offensive of 1944.



Indeed; Japan made no serious attempt to push until Ichi-go. So it wasn't as if Japan couldn't have taken Changsha earlier than 1944.

China was militarily a small fry for Japan. Its real land adversary was the USSR (with whom they had intermittent clashes in the 30s), and its long-term army strategic planning was always with the USSR primarily in mind.


< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 5/23/2021 11:10:02 PM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 5/24/2021 12:09:37 AM   
Elessar2


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I do think China needs more partisan hexes; the number of units Japan needs to cover them is pretty meager (they can often use their air and not garrisons, but even then the latter are dirt cheap). Maybe have quasi-random negative supply events in general.

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/4/2021 12:30:05 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985


Japan
China proper - 9 Armies, 3 Corps.
Manchuria and Korea: 3 Armies, 4 Corps
Forces at home/sea: 1 Army, 2 Corps, 1 Special Forces.
In total: 13 Armies, 9 Corps, Special Forces.

Additionally, 3 Carriers (6 strikes), One Medium and Tactical Bomber, one Fighter.

China
8 Armies, 15 corps. One Fighter.

At first glance, it's even 23 land units vs other 23. But if you look at composition, it's a disaster - Japan has 4 more armies and SF unit. What is more, JP has 2 offensive planes, especially effective against CHN corps.



After thinking about this some more, I am beginning to think the real issue isn't that Japan has too many land units relative to China; the issue is rather that this theater as a whole has too many units relative to the European theater.

I am not sure why this decision was made, but the numbers are way, way off in historic terms. For instance, in 1939 Japan had fewer than half the divisions than either Germany or France had. In fact, the number of Japanese divisions, if I recall correctly, was comparable to that of Italy. Yet, here Japan has more armies than Germany and France combined - not to mention more than quadruple that of Italy! Likewise, the number of Chinese Nationalist units have been correspondingly inflated beyond its historic accuracy in order to balance the Japanese inflation. It's a true mess.

The only rationale I can imagine for the current state of affairs is that more units were needed in the Chinese theater, because the Chinese theater is so big - with only two participants. In this vein, Japan having 3 armies and 5 Corps - like Italy - for instance, would have likely meant that the Chinese theater would see no movement, as there are not enough troops to concentrate at all - much less in multiple salients the way you can do so now.

Being a history freak, I would like to see this addressed, but frankly the adjustment needed would be so massive as to be too much work at this stage. If you scale the number of units down in the Chinese theater to the same proportion as in the European theater, then the game would not be playable in the Chinese theater. So you would likely need to also increase the number of units in the European theater to ensure that you do not have to scale down the Chinese theater to an unplayable state. And it will be obviously a pain in the arse to balance all this.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/4/2021 12:40:31 PM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/4/2021 12:55:23 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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Just for a point of comparison (while keeping in mind that in 1939 Japan possessed less than half the divisions that either Germany or France possessed and approximately the same number that Italy possessed):

Japan:

13 Armies; 9 Corps; 1 Special Forces.

China:

8 Armies; 15 Corps; 1 Engineers.

Germany:

6 Armies, 12 Corps; 2 Tanks.

Italy:

3 Armies, 5 Corps; 1 Tanks.

France:

5 Armies; 8 Corps.







< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/6/2021 10:12:22 AM >

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RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/4/2021 12:55:44 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but any elite or veteran player will wipe out China by the end of 1941 under current set up.

Here are the basic moves to do it currently. This has to be sequenced over a number of turns.

1. Redeploy army and Corps units from Manchuria.
2. Replace Japanese HQ east of Chengchow. With level 7 commander. This makes a big difference. Current one is at level 4.
3. Sequence of attack across the entire front is usually hit Chinese unit with Medium bomber followed up by 3 to four armies. You also bring in the SF unit that Japan has to lower Chinese Morale.
4. Get Japanese Aircraft carriers at full strength and tech. Use them to lower morale of Chinese units and or to finish them off. No kamikaze attacks though. Use light carrier for escort support.
5. The Japanese can destroy or severely damage a Chinese Army around Chengchow on the first axis turn if done right. Use aircraft carrier to draw out Chinese fighter. Then hit Army with medium bomber, armies, with upgraded HQ, and even the tac bomber. The Japanese can still easily destroy the 14th Chinese Corps that always gets killed on the first axis move east of Changsha.
6. Japan builds tac bomber, medium bomber, and at least one artillery unit within the first 6 months of the war. By 1941, follow sequence in step 3 above and you will wipe out the Chinese by the end of. 1941.
7. Do not worry about Nanning that much by the way. Too many people, including me in the past, send this large force to take Nanning from the south. It is better and faster for the Japanese to send 6 armies, SF, and a couple of corps to work there way west through Changsha and then southwest to Nanning. Changsha should be the first major target for the Japanese.
8. Against elite or veteran allied player Japan should could consider research and buying strategic bombers. By 1941, this will allow Japan to wipe out lots of supply and MPPs from China. As I learned against Hamburgermeat and Taifun, it is a great idea to get Japanese fighters up to level 3 for fight in Southeast Asia.
9. The strategic objective, like what almost happened in the war, is for Japan to invade Burma, take Kunming, and halt allied MPPs from getting into China. I would note that Kunming did not fall, that I know of to Japan. However, Japan launched a major offensive with something like 10 armies in 1944.


Even the AI can do it. Playing as Germany, I leave Japan and Italy to their own devices and rarely step in. I've found that if you transfer German and Italian naval units to the Pacific (after taking the Med), Japan holds out against the USA and does take China. It always seems to lose the recently conquered Philippines though.

And yes, I obviously had to step in to send Italian ships to the Pacific...


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RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/4/2021 3:17:18 PM   
Jackmck

 

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So no one has actually proposed any fixes. I have two ideas:

1- Have the US embargo vs Japan be conditioned based- i.e. Axis advance within three hexes of Chungking or Sian, instead of historical. There should be a historical option script for non-PBEM players just like there are other historical scripts.

2. US Tensions increase with Axis conquest of Chungking and Sian- also plausible had this occurred historically. Not hard to manage though as elite axis player might just wait until Japan DoW is imminent to advance into the cities. Still it may help slow the Japanese advance somewhat.


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RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/4/2021 3:25:31 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jackmck

So no one has actually proposed any fixes. I have two ideas:

1- Have the US embargo vs Japan be conditioned based- i.e. Axis advance within three hexes of Chungking or Sian, instead of historical. There should be a historical option script for non-PBEM players just like there are other historical scripts.

2. US Tensions increase with Axis conquest of Chungking and Sian- also plausible had this occurred historically. Not hard to manage though as elite axis player might just wait until Japan DoW is imminent to advance into the cities. Still it may help slow the Japanese advance somewhat.




I did propose fixes that are historically accurate - and should have been implemented at release in the first place:

1. Japan loses its 1 tier of Infantry Weapons technology and get something else as a replacement.

2. The numbers of starting land-based units are dramatically reduced for both Japan and China - and, possibly, the numbers of starting units are increased for countries in the European theater.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/4/2021 3:26:48 PM >

(in reply to Jackmck)
Post #: 24
RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/4/2021 11:57:32 PM   
Platoonist


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From: Kila Hana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


I did propose fixes that are historically accurate - and should have been implemented at release in the first place:

1. Japan loses its 1 tier of Infantry Weapons technology and get something else as a replacement.

2. The numbers of starting land-based units are dramatically reduced for both Japan and China - and, possibly, the numbers of starting units are increased for countries in the European theater.


I must concur with number one. Both the Arisaka rifle and Naumbu machine gun hardly strike me as a tier one infantry weapon tech material.

Another thing that seems historically out of place in China are corps level units. Both the Japanese and Chinese military establishments omitted this echelon completely and organized their divisions directly into armies.

_____________________________


(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 25
RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/5/2021 1:13:36 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


I must concur with number one. Both the Arisaka rifle and Naumbu machine gun hardly strike me as a tier one infantry weapon tech material.

Another thing that seems historically out of place in China are corps level units. Both the Japanese and Chinese military establishments omitted this echelon completely and organized their divisions directly into armies.


I do not know much about the Nationalist army all that well; but classifying Japanese military organization is a bit tricky. This is because what the Japanese called "army" is not equivalent to the Western "field army" in terms of manpower. In fact, it was comparable to the Western "Corps." The Japanese just called it an "army." The equivalent to the Western field army was what they called "area" or "regional" army. I suspect the devs may have been confused in this regard; and hence you see both "regional" armies and regular armies on the game roster for armies.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/5/2021 1:16:49 AM >

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 26
RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/5/2021 2:06:17 AM   
Elessar2


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[Ninja'ed by the previous post]

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 27
RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/5/2021 2:49:29 AM   
Mithrilotter

 

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I agree that generally Japanese infantry weapons were second rate. As I understood the Infantry Weapons tech from beta testing, was that tactics were also a part. Japan was very good at night attacks. Over and over again the Japanese using night attacks would defeat the better armed and equipped UK forces. So, I'm okay with Japan having Level 1 Infantry Weapons. However, I'm open to cap both Japan and China at Level 1 Infantry Weapons. I'm also open to all Japanese infantry units beginning as elite to reflect their very high morale. Beyond that, I don't feet that Japanese tactics and weapons improved as the war continued.

As for China, the Nationalists didn't want to fight Japan. They were more interested in running away to fight another day against the communists. Japan made their preferred fight inconvenient. Since the average Japanese unit was better than the average Nationalist Chinese unit, China should also be limited to Level 1 Infantry Weapons.

(in reply to Elessar2)
Post #: 28
RE: Fix to help China stay in the war. - 6/5/2021 12:55:55 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithrilotter

I agree that generally Japanese infantry weapons were second rate. As I understood the Infantry Weapons tech from beta testing, was that tactics were also a part. Japan was very good at night attacks. Over and over again the Japanese using night attacks would defeat the better armed and equipped UK forces. So, I'm okay with Japan having Level 1 Infantry Weapons. However, I'm open to cap both Japan and China at Level 1 Infantry Weapons. I'm also open to all Japanese infantry units beginning as elite to reflect their very high morale. Beyond that, I don't feet that Japanese tactics and weapons improved as the war continued.



Wouldn't "tactics" more be a province of the Infantry "Warfare" tech than the Infantry "Weapons" tech? As for Japanese army tactics in general: Yes, they were well-trained in night fighting. But that was partly to compensate precisely for their equipment deficit. Also, there were other aspects of tactics that the Japanese army neglected - some very basic ones. Quite often, the officers relied on the superior mythico-racial qualities, the spiritual, elan of the Japanese soldiery more than the mundane military tactics. Of course, some officers are excepted. Yamashita, for instance, understood and learned much from what was going on in Europe.



< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 6/5/2021 12:57:22 PM >

(in reply to Mithrilotter)
Post #: 29
RE: How to destroy China as the Japanese - 6/5/2021 1:03:04 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985



Japan
China proper - 9 Armies, 3 Corps.
Manchuria and Korea: 3 Armies, 4 Corps
Forces at home/sea: 1 Army, 2 Corps, 1 Special Forces.
In total: 13 Armies, 9 Corps, Special Forces.

Additionally, 3 Carriers (6 strikes), One Medium and Tactical Bomber, one Fighter.

China
8 Armies, 15 corps. One Fighter.

At first glance, it's even 23 land units vs other 23. But if you look at composition, it's a disaster - Japan has 4 more armies and SF unit. What is more, JP has 2 offensive planes, especially effective against CHN corps.




By the way, I just realized that you neglected the fact that China gets 1 Engineers. That's not insignificant.

A neat inclusion by the devs, by the way. China is the only country who starts with Engineers, and I suppose it's a reference to the flooding of the Yellow River by the Guomindang? ;)

(in reply to Marcinos1985)
Post #: 30
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