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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 12:17:39 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80

quote:

LMAO!


Know that else is fun and easy (a little off-topic, but then I'll stop)? Sending Japanese troops to sneakily occupy Anchorage. It doesn't accomplish anything militarily, but it really cheeses America off!


Unfortunately, I cannot spare any Japanese troops. If I had spare, I'd throw them on the Siberian front first - which I never even have troops to open in the first place. Axis have a serious manpower problem - unless they manage to recruit a lot of allies.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 12:19:00 PM   
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< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 5/18/2021 2:00:07 PM >

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 12:23:57 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

Oh, I forgot to ask: What about Finland? Could they give me a fast back-door access to Leningrad? Or at least allow me to hit Leningrad from two directions, as my Barbarossa ground to a halt in Leningrad (as well as Moscow and Stalingrad) the last run?


Yes. Playing as Germany a few games ago I pumped DP's into Finland and they did decaare war on Russia. However, I seem to remember that they have to retain a certain number of Finish units within the Finish borders, so you will have to build more Finish units to make a real impact. Open to corrections on this as I don't recall exactly.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 12:47:33 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80

quote:

Wow. So you are trying to link up with Japan? That's my dream as Axis, but Japan struggles to finish China, and Germany can't even get to the Caucasus. But I will see what happens in my new game.


Well, yeah, the Allies have offered to unconditionally surrender but I am often too emotionally invested to accept, and its fun to send units off to out-of-the-way scenic places to do some sightseeing. It also seems premature to end the game until China has surrendered, or maybe seeing Finnish troops patrolling the streets of Chicago.


Remember new players (like me), turn off the victory conditions or you won't be able to say NO when your AI opponent offers to surrender. It was disappointing when my last game ended so abruptly with that message.

This time I have invasion fleets off the Gulf of Mexico. I plan to land troops in Florida, Texas and California (via Panama). Bit silly, but it is a great way to learn the use of AVL and transported forces.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 12:53:12 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 5/18/2021 2:03:10 PM >

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 12:55:32 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


Yes. Playing as Germany a few games ago I pumped DP's into Finland and they did decaare war on Russia. However, I seem to remember that they have to retain a certain number of Finish units within the Finish borders, so you will have to build more Finish units to make a real impact. Open to corrections on this as I don't recall exactly.


That's not too attractive then. There's better fish in the ocean, so to speak.


quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


Remember new players (like me), turn off the victory conditions or you won't be able to say NO when your AI opponent offers to surrender. It was disappointing when my last game ended so abruptly with that message.

This time I have invasion fleets off the Gulf of Mexico. I plan to land troops in Florida, Texas and California (via Panama). Bit silly, but it is a great way to learn the use of AVL and transported forces.



I will worry about that when I can topple USSR - I can't even go beyond the three objective cities of Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad - too much unit spam :(

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 5/18/2021 12:56:12 PM >

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 1:55:44 PM   
Epekepe

 

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quote:


I will worry about that when I can topple USSR - I can't even go beyond the three objective cities of Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad - too much unit spam :(



Just a thought, I keep concentrating my forces just one or rarely two objective at a time. Rest of the front is pretty much static or slowly advancing.

< Message edited by Epekepe -- 5/18/2021 3:39:19 PM >

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 3:08:22 PM   
Illiniwek80

 

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quote:

I will worry about that when I can topple USSR - I can't even go beyond the three objective cities of Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad - too much unit spam :(


Nah; it collapses with stunning rapidity.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 3:38:53 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Epekepe


Just a thought, I keep concentrating just one or rarely two objective at a time. Rest of the front is pretty much static or slowly advancing.


I never thought of that, because months go so quickly in this game, and I am so hellbent on getting stuff done before winter on the Russian front. Also, don't the Soviets have too many units across every tile to take troops from any sector? I am afraid of counter-attacked and having my lines breached.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80


Nah; it collapses with stunning rapidity.



I will see if things are better this playthrough then. I suspect there is yet quite a skill gap between us to expect the same outcome on Barbarossa though! ;)

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 3:48:03 PM   
Illiniwek80

 

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quote:


I will see if things are better this playthrough then. I suspect there is yet quite a skill gap between us to expect the same outcome on Barbarossa though! ;)


Probly not too much of one. What works for me, tho, is focusing on Logistics and massing airpower for one objective at a time: e.g., first Leningrad then Moscow. Develop Ground Attack to Level 2. Grind it out to Moscow. What happens further south is kind of up to you, but usually by 1943 whatever I have sent to Africa is up in the Caucasus. Even if it isn't doing a lot, the Russians have either diverted a bunch of units to defending it or I am waltzing around taking their oil. Either way, its good. The AI doesnt seem to know how to cope with it.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 3:51:54 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80

Probly not too much of one. What works for me, tho, is focusing on Logistics and massing airpower for one objective at a time: e.g., first Leningrad then Moscow. Develop Ground Attack to Level 2. Grind it out to Moscow. What happens further south is kind of up to you, but usually by 1943 whatever I have sent to Africa is up in the Caucasus. Even if it isn't doing a lot, the Russians have either diverted a bunch of units to defending it or I am waltzing around taking their oil. Either way, its good. The AI doesnt seem to know how to cope with it.


Do you have Egypt aleady with Afrika Korps by 1943 then? I was actually thinking of focusing on the southern front and going through Turkey. Of course, I need some RNG luck with diplomacy there.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 3:57:43 PM   
Illiniwek80

 

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quote:

Do you have Egypt aleady with Afrika Korps by 1943 then? I was actually thinking of focusing on the southern front and going through Turkey. Of course, I need some RNG luck with diplomacy there.



I don't play the same game every time, but have always had more success throwing the air force into taking Malta then Egypt with two armor and one infantry. The Afrika Corps spawns and I use it to take Yugoslavia then maybe Turkey (which is a slog, actually. Paratroops help there.) Otherwise it goes for Kiev. Also, when building, don't forget your Hungarian and Romanian armor units. They can be quite effective.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 4:02:50 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80


I don't play the same game every time, but have always had more success throwing the air force into taking Malta then Egypt with two armor and one infantry. The Afrika Corps spawns and I use it to take Yugoslavia then maybe Turkey (which is a slog, actually. Paratroops help there.) Otherwise it goes for Kiev. Also, when building, don't forget your Hungarian and Romanian armor units. They can be quite effective.


I see; so you don't even go for Egypt? I do plan on taking Malta, but I was also going for Egypt. If you don't send Afrika Korps to Africa, then do you just give up the Italian possessions in Africa?

Also, thanks for telling me about Hugarian and Roman tanks; i didn't even realize that they have them! ;)

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 5:46:14 PM   
Epekepe

 

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[/quote]
I never thought of that, because months go so quickly in this game, and I am so hellbent on getting stuff done before winter on the Russian front. Also, don't the Soviets have too many units across every tile to take troops from any sector? I am afraid of counter-attacked and having my lines breached.
[/quote]


Against AI it is easy to win at normal level, when you get all the game mechanics under control. Like Illiniwek80 wrote, get your best forces (planes, artillery, tanks, mechanized) together and push hard. Soviets AI can't do any serious counterattacks until 1943, because they are so much behind on everything.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 7:12:23 PM   
Illiniwek80

 

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quote:

so you don't even go for Egypt?


Yup, through Egypt, Iraq and straight to Baku. I'm not saying that it's the 'right' way to play. I don't think there is really a 'right' way to play.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 7:31:10 PM   
smckechnie

 

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I think the first thing you have to do as the axis or allies is to figure out your overall strategy to include if you are going to do any type of diplomatic strategy. I have lost lots of games by really not thinking out my strategy for Allies or the Axis.

Diplomacy towards major powers is advantage allies in my opinion, but could be axis if played right. Diplomacy on majors has such a major impact in the game though and is why it is not allowed in ELO rules. Here are a few scenarios.

Axis put diplomacy towards US. The axis can put more chits to the US that England, India, and China. A couple of hits and the US will not enter the war until spring or summer of 1942. This totally screws the allies, as lower US mobilization means less resources all around for allies. Lend lease delayed too. Axis can wipe out allies before the US gets in war and even when US joins, resources lower than normal. Yes, this takes away resources from the axis, but net gain is pro axis.

Allies put diplomacy toward Russia. A couple of hits with no axis response and you change the equation in Russia significantly. Axis could be dealing with maxed researched Russia, extra HQ, 2 tanks or 2 anti-tank guns upon initially invasion. If axis responds, you help Russia out lots in terms of that is less resources for the Germans to have for Barbarossa. I personally think that no diplomacy towards Russia rules helps the axis lots.

Allies put diplomacy towards US. A couple of hits here early with no axis response. US has resources to build force to invade Europe faster. US lend lease starts sooner. US gets maxed out on research faster. The cascading effect of faster US mobilization is huge. It usually makes the Japanese have to accelerate there time line to attack in the Pacific, which is usually not to their advantage.

Axis put diplomacy towards Russia. This used to be a favored effort for the axis if they were to launch a Sea Lion event. England is usually MPP strapped due to being invaded. Russian mobilization can be brought back down with a diplo hit. This give Germans more time to finish off England and then concentrate on taking Russia. Very hard for the allies to counter, as they are cash strapped.

More on minors later.

Scott


(in reply to Illiniwek80)
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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 10:10:15 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Epekepe



Against AI it is easy to win at normal level, when you get all the game mechanics under control. Like Illiniwek80 wrote, get your best forces (planes, artillery, tanks, mechanized) together and push hard. Soviets AI can't do any serious counterattacks until 1943, because they are so much behind on everything.


Again, what is easy for the skilled is not as much for newbies like me! ;) I am far from Barbarossa in my 2nd playthrough, so we shall see what happens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80

Yup, through Egypt, Iraq and straight to Baku. I'm not saying that it's the 'right' way to play. I don't think there is really a 'right' way to play.


Ah, ok; so you do invest in the North African front.


quote:

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

I think the first thing you have to do as the axis or allies is to figure out your overall strategy to include if you are going to do any type of diplomatic strategy. I have lost lots of games by really not thinking out my strategy for Allies or the Axis.

Diplomacy towards major powers is advantage allies in my opinion, but could be axis if played right. Diplomacy on majors has such a major impact in the game though and is why it is not allowed in ELO rules. Here are a few scenarios.

Axis put diplomacy towards US. The axis can put more chits to the US that England, India, and China. A couple of hits and the US will not enter the war until spring or summer of 1942. This totally screws the allies, as lower US mobilization means less resources all around for allies. Lend lease delayed too. Axis can wipe out allies before the US gets in war and even when US joins, resources lower than normal. Yes, this takes away resources from the axis, but net gain is pro axis.

Allies put diplomacy toward Russia. A couple of hits with no axis response and you change the equation in Russia significantly. Axis could be dealing with maxed researched Russia, extra HQ, 2 tanks or 2 anti-tank guns upon initially invasion. If axis responds, you help Russia out lots in terms of that is less resources for the Germans to have for Barbarossa. I personally think that no diplomacy towards Russia rules helps the axis lots.

Allies put diplomacy towards US. A couple of hits here early with no axis response. US has resources to build force to invade Europe faster. US lend lease starts sooner. US gets maxed out on research faster. The cascading effect of faster US mobilization is huge. It usually makes the Japanese have to accelerate there time line to attack in the Pacific, which is usually not to their advantage.

Axis put diplomacy towards Russia. This used to be a favored effort for the axis if they were to launch a Sea Lion event. England is usually MPP strapped due to being invaded. Russian mobilization can be brought back down with a diplo hit. This give Germans more time to finish off England and then concentrate on taking Russia. Very hard for the allies to counter, as they are cash strapped.

More on minors later.

Scott





This is enlightening stuff; thank you. And please post on the options regarding minors. I am still a bit reluctant on investing on majors, because of 1) the cost; and 2) the fact that I will have to ultimately fight them anyways. For instance, in my first playthrough, the AI USA didn't enter the war until February of 1941 anyways, so I'd save maybe a few months? I am not sure if that is big enough of an advantage.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 10:33:15 PM   
Illiniwek80

 

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Ok- I just tried an experiment. I went all in on Sweden beginning at game start, keeping chits at maximum from all 3 Axis powers. This resulted in a total expenditure of 800 MPPs and Swedish entry in July, 1941.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 10:36:47 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80

Ok- I just tried an experiment. I went all in on Sweden beginning at game start, keeping chits at maximum from all 3 Axis powers. This resulted in a total expenditure of 800 MPPs and Swedish entry in July, 1941.


800 MPPs! That's a lot, and it's not guaranteed to work on time. (Well, I guess timing is less important for Sweden, but I'd want Turkey, for instance, by spring of 1941.)

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/18/2021 10:46:33 PM   
Illiniwek80

 

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Well, it gives you a ton. Remember the list if Swedish units I posted earlier? Plus Swedish income.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 5/19/2021 2:05:06 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Illiniwek80

Well, it gives you a ton. Remember the list if Swedish units I posted earlier? Plus Swedish income.


I plucked the dough down on Turkey for the current game - though I am beginning to regret it, since it is not "hitting" - at least early - and it is time-sensitive. I may go Sweden next game, since it's less time-sensitive to do so.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 6/3/2021 1:12:48 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ForzaA


Turkey's a good target for Barbarossa, Spain's good for a naval strategy (extra ports, fair number of ships built and buildable)
(Sweden's a bit of both, also of note is that they might be used to complete the railroad to Norway (and thus the mines both in Norway and Sweden) via Leningrad




Revisiting this thread: Is it possible to attack USSR from Sweden? Don't you have to go through Finland - necessitating either an invasion of Finland of allying with them as well?

And speaking of which: Why is it so hard to ally Finland as Germany in this game? In real-life, Finland joined the Axis.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 6/3/2021 4:50:21 AM   
ForzaA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


Revisiting this thread: Is it possible to attack USSR from Sweden? Don't you have to go through Finland - necessitating either an invasion of Finland of allying with them as well?

And speaking of which: Why is it so hard to ally Finland as Germany in this game? In real-life, Finland joined the Axis.

Finland will join you after you declare war on the USSR if Finland has any sort of Pro-Axis leaning.
Finland starts with a pro-Axis leaning - though it could lose it either through Allied diplomacy OR through the Allies sending aid in the winter war, and that aid helping them avoid losing to the USSR (though in that case the USSR takes a *significant* hit to their mobilisation) - either can of course be compensated again by your own diplomacy.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 6/3/2021 12:09:57 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ForzaA

Finland will join you after you declare war on the USSR if Finland has any sort of Pro-Axis leaning.
Finland starts with a pro-Axis leaning - though it could lose it either through Allied diplomacy OR through the Allies sending aid in the winter war, and that aid helping them avoid losing to the USSR (though in that case the USSR takes a *significant* hit to their mobilisation) - either can of course be compensated again by your own diplomacy.


Ah, okay; thanks. I wish Allies sending aid event weren't in the game, because Finland did join the Axis in real-life.

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RE: Axis diplomatic targets? - 6/3/2021 12:13:38 PM   
Illiniwek80

 

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quote:

Ah, okay; thanks. I wish Allies sending aid event weren't in the game, because Finland did join the Axis in real-life.


I think the consensus after playing for awhile is that more variation in what you can expect is beneficial; otherwise, play becomes something you follow by rote. I'm sure after awhile you will agree. I know, for example, that Oran will be undefended and don't even bother scouting it. Hopefully, setups and AI moves will vary more in future updates.

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