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Does it make sense to apply efficiency penalties to Logistic Range?

 
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Does it make sense to apply efficiency penalties to Log... - 5/15/2021 7:27:06 PM   
Peresvet

 

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It makes perfect sense to apply efficiency penalties to the amount of truck points, but I believe that applying efficiency penalties to the logistic range is too harsh and means that the logistics is penalized twice.

For example, imagine a brigade that needs 80 supply points and which is supplied through a 16 hex long dirt road. The truck Station (AP=100) sends 200 truck points to this road and they turn into 80 logistical points at the end of the road. This means the army is fully supplied.

Now imagine that next turn efficiency of the Truck Station drops to 80% for some reason (e.g. not enough workers). Now the truck station provides only 80AP range and there is zero logistical points at the end of the 16 hex long road. It means that the (previously fully supplied) brigade suddenly gets completely cut off from supply. It's a disaster for a fighting army. And it seems to be too harsh for just a 20% efficiency drop. I believe applying efficiency penalty to truck *points* only would be enough. Instead of 80 points, the brigade would receive 64 points, it would be slightly undersupplied but nothing disastrous would happen to it.

The consequences may get even more severe if there is a supply base in the middle of a supply line. Lack of logistical points to supply base (100 * base level) means that the base will not be able to provide the expected extension and it will take an extra turn to reestablish the supply line after efficiency of the truck station is fixed.

What do you think?
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RE: Does it make sense to apply efficiency penalties to... - 5/15/2021 7:58:54 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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It is a bit annoying that you can hardly ever run logistics buildings at less than full capacity even if you have plenty of spare LP, since doing that causes their range to absolutely crater.

(in reply to Peresvet)
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RE: Does it make sense to apply efficiency penalties to... - 5/15/2021 7:59:46 PM   
Peresvet

 

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Exactly! An interesting follow-up question is how to implement efficiency penalties for supply bases. It would be inconsistent to have a constant truck station range but variable supply base extension range. An elegant solution would be to make supply bases affect only a fraction of truck points passing through the base. I mean, if a supply base works for 60% than only 60% of truck points receive the (full) extension. The rest 40% pass through the base as if there were no any supply base in this hex.

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)
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RE: Does it make sense to apply efficiency penalties to... - 5/15/2021 8:37:05 PM   
Peresvet

 

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Yet another option for supply bases is just to add an upper bound on how much truck points can receive extension. For example, a supply base working at 100% can provide a (full) extension to up to 400 truck points, while a supply base working at 50% can extend no more than 200 truck point.

< Message edited by Peresvet -- 5/15/2021 8:39:24 PM >

(in reply to Peresvet)
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RE: Does it make sense to apply efficiency penalties to... - 5/16/2021 1:09:46 PM   
BlueTemplar


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I wouldn't say that this is necessarily bad, actually even good in the sense that this incentivizes both making sure that your infrastructure works at 100% efficiency and disrupting enemy's infrastructure.

I would say that the main issue here is the difficulty to predict how many workers you'll have available at the start of your next turn !
(Also note that this is one way how the private Transport Hub is better, at least until you run into Populace shortage issues.)

This is a pretty fundamental variable that impacts every single construction and production,
and has important threshold effects in having an asset complete 1 turn earlier or a single item like a Radioactive from Demetalization I produced or not (or the nonlinear effects like in this thread),
yet it isn't shown in the Preview Tab of the Asset Management Window !

So you have to kind of guess how many new workers are going to be recruited (and stay) from the various variables that you have available like Populace total, Loyalty (?), Population Happiness, Private and Public salaries (responsible for the "X workers left you to seek their happiness elsewhere" "events"?)...

Well, I guess that it's it's one of those risks that you can try to take for more rewards, and how you're indirectly punished by firing Workers, and that's what the "Draft Workers" stratagem is for, but it's still annoying !

(in reply to Peresvet)
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RE: Does it make sense to apply efficiency penalties to... - 5/17/2021 12:18:27 AM   
Peresvet

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 5/4/2021
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quote:

I wouldn't say that this is necessarily bad, actually even good in the sense that this incentivizes both making sure that your infrastructure works at 100% efficiency and disrupting enemy's infrastructure.

I would say that the main issue here is the difficulty to predict how many workers you'll have available at the start of your next turn !
(Also note that this is one way how the private Transport Hub is better, at least until you run into Populace shortage issues.)

This is a pretty fundamental variable that impacts every single construction and production,
and has important threshold effects in having an asset complete 1 turn earlier or a single item like a Radioactive from Demetalization I produced or not (or the nonlinear effects like in this thread),
yet it isn't shown in the Preview Tab of the Asset Management Window !

So you have to kind of guess how many new workers are going to be recruited (and stay) from the various variables that you have available like Populace total, Loyalty (?), Population Happiness, Private and Public salaries (responsible for the "X workers left you to seek their happiness elsewhere" "events"?)...

Well, I guess that it's it's one of those risks that you can try to take for more rewards, and how you're indirectly punished by firing Workers, and that's what the "Draft Workers" stratagem is for, but it's still annoying !


Thanks BlueTemplar. I see your point. However, I strongly disagree with you. I believe that the punishment/penalty should be commensurate to the issue you face. Efficiency 80% should mean that you can deliver 20% less supplies, not that 20% of the territory will get no supplies at all. After all, you cannot expect your logistics always work at 100% during the war time. Even if it happens to drop to under 50%, you should be able to deliver at least some supplies to the fighting army on the border. Arbitrary supply disruptions like this only add frustration, not fun, in my opinion.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
Post #: 6
RE: Does it make sense to apply efficiency penalties to... - 5/17/2021 2:03:40 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3187
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peresvet

quote:

I wouldn't say that this is necessarily bad, actually even good in the sense that this incentivizes both making sure that your infrastructure works at 100% efficiency and disrupting enemy's infrastructure.

I would say that the main issue here is the difficulty to predict how many workers you'll have available at the start of your next turn !
(Also note that this is one way how the private Transport Hub is better, at least until you run into Populace shortage issues.)

This is a pretty fundamental variable that impacts every single construction and production,
and has important threshold effects in having an asset complete 1 turn earlier or a single item like a Radioactive from Demetalization I produced or not (or the nonlinear effects like in this thread),
yet it isn't shown in the Preview Tab of the Asset Management Window !

So you have to kind of guess how many new workers are going to be recruited (and stay) from the various variables that you have available like Populace total, Loyalty (?), Population Happiness, Private and Public salaries (responsible for the "X workers left you to seek their happiness elsewhere" "events"?)...

Well, I guess that it's it's one of those risks that you can try to take for more rewards, and how you're indirectly punished by firing Workers, and that's what the "Draft Workers" stratagem is for, but it's still annoying !


Thanks BlueTemplar. I see your point. However, I strongly disagree with you. I believe that the punishment/penalty should be commensurate to the issue you face. Efficiency 80% should mean that you can deliver 20% less supplies, not that 20% of the territory will get no supplies at all. After all, you cannot expect your logistics always work at 100% during the war time. Even if it happens to drop to under 50%, you should be able to deliver at least some supplies to the fighting army on the border. Arbitrary supply disruptions like this only add frustration, not fun, in my opinion.

Agreed.

The Capacity being affected? Sure, fair game.
The Range being affected? Heck nope!

(in reply to Peresvet)
Post #: 7
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