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Range by hex - 5/13/2021 10:45:36 PM   
William the Silent

 

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The range for ranged units is given in kilometers.
Since the 0.25 km/hex was added is it not better to give range in hexes?

Btw. If I put artillery in an infantry unit (non ranged), does the artillery have the same effect in combat as when I put them in a ranged unit?
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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 8:51:49 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

The range for ranged units is given in kilometers.
Since the 0.25 km/hex was added is it not better to give range in hexes?


I'm not sure what you mean. The range of equipment is given in kilometres, but the range of the unit is displayed in hexes.

quote:

Btw. If I put artillery in an infantry unit (non ranged), does the artillery have the same effect in combat as when I put them in a ranged unit?


No. We did a fair bit of testing on this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4956581

In effect, the game treats ranged equipment in a non-ranged unit as if it's firing directly; net, this means that ranged equipment is about twice as effective if it's in a unit with a ranged icon.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 11:55:00 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

Btw. If I put artillery in an infantry unit (non ranged), does the artillery have the same effect in combat as when I put them in a ranged unit?


Somehow physics changes and artillery uses the Bizzaro World physics model.

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Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 12:23:39 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Somehow physics changes and artillery uses the Bizzaro World physics model.


It's not really a problem provided the designer is aware of it.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 1:27:27 PM   
Lobster


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The following is simply an opinion.

Depends on what you are shooting for. TOAW could be called The Operational Art of Workaround.

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Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 5:05:00 PM   
governato

 

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can you have double icons assigned to a unit? 'd that help ?

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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 5:06:10 PM   
governato

 

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can you have double icons assigned to a unit? 'd that help ?

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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 5:52:19 PM   
Lobster


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You mean an infantry as the main and artillery as a secondary? Sure. I tried it once and when attacking with a unit arranged that way it always went off as a bombardment.

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Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 7:15:46 PM   
William the Silent

 

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quote:

I'm not sure what you mean. The range of equipment is given in kilometres, but the range of the unit is displayed in hexes.

At 0.25 km/hex setting your lowest range is 1km. That translates into 5 hexes range.
But there is no option at 3 hexes or 7 hexes for instance.

< Message edited by William the Silent -- 5/15/2021 1:52:36 PM >

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RE: Range by hex - 5/14/2021 8:09:12 PM   
William the Silent

 

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quote:

In effect, the game treats ranged equipment in a non-ranged unit as if it's firing directly; net, this means that ranged equipment is about twice as effective if it's in a unit with a ranged icon.

So you would put infantry guns, AT guns in a non ranged icon unit? AT guns and a 75mm in a tank operate in direct fire.
Designer choice.

Btw. that "ranged unit/non ranged unit artillery effect" topic helped me to understand the inner workings of the game better. It's a complicated game to understand, but with mainipulation of the tools you get (and understand) you can create a pretty realistic game (if you want that).

Without help from this forum you would get lost in trying to understand all workings of the game.
So thanks for all the replies always.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/15/2021 5:29:50 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

At 0.25 km/hex setting your lowest range is 1km. That translates into 5 hexes range.
But there is no option at 3 hexes or 7 hexes for instance.


Well if you're at that scale you're going to have bigger problems. For example, how come you can't see the other troops two hexes over? That's only 500 metres and it's open ground.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: Range by hex - 5/15/2021 6:17:54 PM   
Lobster


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Maybe some day there will be line of sight in TOAW. But then might as well just build a whole new game.

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 12:42:22 AM   
William the Silent

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Well if you're at that scale you're going to have bigger problems. For example, how come you can't see the other troops two hexes over? That's only 500 metres and it's open ground.

Recon: Skirmishers and cavalry screen.
Effective artillery range napoleonic actually was about 700 m.
And after some fighting you couldn't see much anyway through the smoke

But it actually is not a big issue for me. It's fine like it is.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 2:58:40 AM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

For example, how come you can't see the other troops two hexes over? That's only 500 metres and it's open ground.


An adjustment to the Theater Recon value should be able to take care of the problem.

_____________________________

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Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

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RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 3:55:34 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


An adjustment to the Theater Recon value should be able to take care of the problem.


No it won't. Theatre recon causes hexes to randomise to "observed" or "spotted" irrespective of whether any friendly units are nearby. So you either have a God's eye view or assume that there's smoke over the whole map all the time.

Personally I also think a Napoleonic game needs Napoleonic command and control, too. The great generals of the era figured out how to win battles even though their subordinates would not be under their direct control during the battle itself. If you have full command and control, you might as well be playing Age of Empires.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 4:23:48 PM   
William the Silent

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


An adjustment to the Theater Recon value should be able to take care of the problem.


Personally I also think a Napoleonic game needs Napoleonic command and control, too. The great generals of the era figured out how to win battles even though their subordinates would not be under their direct control during the battle itself. If you have full command and control, you might as well be playing Age of Empires.

I think TOAW IV has plenty of tools to make a realistic tactical napoleonic game. Little manipulation does a lot.

You are right about the command. And there was seldom a clear view on the enemy during battle. Napoleon send his heavy cavalry up the hill at Waterloo, because he thought Wellington was retreating or disordered. But he couldn't see. Part of Wellingtons strategy and fog of war. Once the french found out there were just unbreakable squares they still kept attacking. No commander stopped the suicidle action.
Nappy even didn't know if the troops approuching from the east were prussian or french.
Wellington had to trust Blucher to come to his aide (or be able to make it in time) and hold his ground. Had Blucher not come in time the battle would have been lost.

Blucher's action won the battle of Waterloo. So did Blucher's action at Leipzig. Very underrated general.

Austerlitz also was not a clear vision battle. Many pre battle orders and choices from sub commanders decided the battle.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 4:31:49 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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I'm still stumped as to what game (board or PC) Ben is thinking of that has aide-de-camp rules. For sure there are tons of pre-radio tactical games right here at Matrix that don't use any such factor. And board games generally don't even have fog-of-war.

If TOAW can do as well as the old board games I base them on, I'm happy.

_____________________________

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RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 4:52:48 PM   
Lobster


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I remember some of the games where they had us use screens to simulate fog of war. Don't cough or the fog dissipates.

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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Post #: 18
RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 4:59:34 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Don't cough or the fog dissipates.


And then there was the "map trampoline": A part of the map gets a bow in it, and, after being depressed for a while, suddenly pops concave - with a volcano spray of counters everywhere!

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 19
RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 5:05:42 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still stumped as to what game (board or PC) Ben is thinking of that has aide-de-camp rules.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_in_Russia:_Borodino_1812

From 1987.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 20
RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 5:09:52 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still stumped as to what game (board or PC) Ben is thinking of that has aide-de-camp rules.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_in_Russia:_Borodino_1812

From 1987.

Never heard of it. Can such games be devised? Sure. Have most Napoleonic games foregone such factors? Yep.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 21
RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 5:11:27 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


Never heard of it. Can such games be devised? Sure. Have most Napoleonic games foregone such factors? Yep.


I'm sure they have- because they're not interested in being accurate simulations.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 22
RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 5:19:12 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


Never heard of it. Can such games be devised? Sure. Have most Napoleonic games foregone such factors? Yep.


I'm sure they have- because they're not interested in being accurate simulations.

Couriers are fast. Orders on a battlefield can be distributed fast enough to not really need simulation. Now, at the operational or strategic level...

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Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 23
RE: Range by hex - 5/16/2021 5:19:34 PM   
Lobster


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I remember the few times board game makers tried to simulate fog of war with a screen. Don't cough or the fog of war dissipates.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 24
RE: Range by hex - 5/18/2021 10:49:16 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

An adjustment to the Theater Recon value should be able to take care of the problem.


No it won't. Theatre recon causes hexes to randomise to "observed" or "spotted" irrespective of whether any friendly units are nearby.


A simple test shows that adjusting Theater Recon has the desired effect of revealing enemy troops across the front with declining observation at depth. Think this demonstrates that for any Theater Recon value the closer a unit is to the observer the more likely it is that it will be uncovered. Theater Recon does not appear to be a probability that operates equally across the battlefield.

If Theater Recon is not used, try loading units with a recon squad and test.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

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RE: Range by hex - 5/19/2021 2:36:28 AM   
Lobster


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Do a test moving units too.

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/19/2021 4:01:15 PM   
gliz2

 

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Too much board gaming will kill (your common sense).

In reality most of the recon was done by probing and POWs interrogations.

My favourite story is of a IIWW general ordering his motor scout to get to the village to scold "own troops for shooting friendlies".
When they saw the scout being shot dead the general commented: "Well, seems they were actually shooting correctly".

Another good one is of US scouts getting through an enemy town and back reporting no enemy as the German CO ordered his troops to hide and let them through.
Trick paid out and many good men and some tanks were lost.

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 5/19/2021 4:03:56 PM >


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RE: Range by hex - 5/19/2021 5:21:36 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


A simple test shows that adjusting Theater Recon has the desired effect of revealing enemy troops across the front with declining observation at depth. Think this demonstrates that for any Theater Recon value the closer a unit is to the observer the more likely it is that it will be uncovered. Theater Recon does not appear to be a probability that operates equally across the battlefield.


Your "simple test" has an extremely small sample size.

I tested a map with twelve units at 2 hexes, 18 units at 3 hexes and 24 units at 4 hexes distant. I set recon to 5% and observed the results for ten turns.

Total units visible:
Two hexes: 14 out of 120 = 11.7%
Three hexes: 30 out of 180 = 16.7%
Four hexes: 43 out of 240 = 17.9%

So a larger sample actually gives us an inverse relationship between the proximity to a friendly unit and the chance of spotting. I expect if we increased the sample size, though, that these differences would largely disappear and we'd find a more or less consistent chance of spotting any given hex on the map.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 5/19/2021 5:22:14 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 28
RE: Range by hex - 5/19/2021 6:18:48 PM   
Lobster


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That make sense. The more units there are the higher probability you will observe something.

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http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Range by hex - 5/19/2021 7:54:32 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Your "simple test" has an extremely small sample size.


Well, duh . . . that’s why it was called ‘simple”.

A couple of critical things you didn’t mention 1) scale and 2) whether the observed units clustered near the observer or were randomly dispersed. A picture of the test set up, and results, would be nice.

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to golden delicious)
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