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ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 7:16:36 PM   
HalfLifeExpert


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In the Kashmir Fire Scenario "Escalation", pretty early on, the Abraham Lincoln group comes under attack from a pair of PRC DF-26B Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles.

I'm able to detect them while they are several Km high, but my ships can't or won't engage, except at the last moment with a Laser (which is ineffective)

Am I missing something? Shouldn't my Aegis ships be able to at least try to stop the two missiles with ABM SAMs as they are coming down?

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 7:21:47 PM   
alphali

 

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Did you try to target them manually? if so what's the massage you get if you try to?

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 7:23:43 PM   
HalfLifeExpert


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I've not tried that, I'm stuck at work right now, so I'll give it a look when I get home.

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 11:36:55 PM   
HalfLifeExpert


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According to the manual attack window, it seems that the ASBMs are moving far too fast for my missiles to engage (over 9000 kts vs 2000-3000 kts).

Seems like my ships are mostly defenseless then, except for the roll of the dice that is my Laser, and this time the laser stopped on missile and the other missed I guess.


Seems like this scenario has it where I just have to accept ASBM will hit my carriers at some point, unless that's not the intention?




Scratch that, the Cruiser Anzio has missile capable of targeting ships that fast, but now the Manual attack window states:

"The weapon's target-altitude envelope does not match any point in the target's estimated trajectory"


So what am I supposed to do then?

< Message edited by HalfLifeExpert -- 5/13/2021 11:43:24 PM >

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 11:42:59 PM   
BeirutDude


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I've encountered this, you have to have a ABM SAM that can engage at 10,000 Kts. I believe it has to be an RIM-161C SM-3 Blk 1B or BLKIIA

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 11:45:52 PM   
HalfLifeExpert


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Check the lower part of my previous post. Turns out I DO have such missiles on a cruiser, but there's another issue

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 11:47:26 PM   
SunlitZelkova

 

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Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the SM-3 can do a point defence style launch like the Patriot.

You also have to detect the missile basically right after it launches, or you won't be able to hit the missile. There have been times in other scenarios where the missiles would be detected within a DLZ but they launched too late to actually hit anyways, resulting in a huge waste of ABMs (it was in previous builds quite a while ago).

This requires having a SBIRS or STSS satellite in place. Last time I checked there a number of missing satellites, there are now 10 or so in the constellation but there are only three or four in the game.

< Message edited by SunlitZelkova -- 5/13/2021 11:48:18 PM >


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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 11:49:34 PM   
HalfLifeExpert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunlitZelkova

You also have to detect the missile basically right after it launches, or you won't be able to hit the missile. There have been times in other scenarios where the missiles would be detected within a DLZ but they launched too late to actually hit anyways, resulting in a huge waste of ABMs (it was in previous builds quite a while ago).

This requires having a SBIRS or STSS satellite in place. Last time I checked there a number of missing satellites, there are now 10 or so in the constellation but there are only three or four in the game.


Well that's not what I expected. I don't see the missiles until they enter Ships' radar coverage. So I really just have to roll the dice then on whether or not I will take a major hit at the scenario outset.

If this is what the US Navy Currently has, then our carriers really are kind of screwed from ASBMs.

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 11:52:22 PM   
BeirutDude


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quote:

"The weapon's target-altitude envelope does not match any point in the target's estimated trajectory"



Hmmmm, I haven't played this yet, working on some scenarios. I assume the Anzio is part of the Lincoln CSG? I know when I had the DF-26s attacking Guam in one of my scenarios there was a DLZ issue, but that usually cleared as the missiles approached. So it seems if the Anzio is part of the CSG they should be able to engage. Sorry I couldn't be more help, but I don't know.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/13/2021 11:53:17 PM >


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I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/13/2021 11:56:32 PM   
SunlitZelkova

 

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In real life there are already enough satellites to provide good coverage of launches 24/7, so I don't think the situations seen in CMO will come to pass.

On the other hand, there will be some tough calls to make if not enough destroyers with SM-3s are out there when a war starts (i.e., do we save our missiles to keep the Ronald Reagan safe in the event of ASBM attack, or try to shoot down the MRBMs targeting Kadena and Iwakuni?).

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/14/2021 1:55:59 AM   
thewood1

 

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Just to clarify, in real life the SM-3 is exoatmospheric. It can only attack at very high altitudes and is typically a very narrow window that is very dependent on specific engagement profiles. But the big challenge is to have a radar that can track well enough to provide a firing solution. There are only a very few radars that can do that. The SM-6 is endo-atmospheric and is more like a point defense for the local fleet. But the SM-6 has a target speed limit that makes it almost impossible to intercept DF-26s.

Satellites don't give enough of a refined track for direct fire control. They can only let you know a launch has happened so you can re-orient your ships and get your radars on. All of these issues are why the US defence against ASBMs encompasses SM-3s, SM-6s, THAADs, and Patriot. It also uses a kill chain with radars forming a semicircle around threats. The only real fire control radar available that can track a missile with a long range radar and thats the Sea-Based radar. In fact, today, when there is a missile threat, you can google and find out that the sea based radar is on the move.

The short of it is that in CMO and in real life, a fleet sitting by itself with no in-theater radar support is very vulnerable to IRBM-based ASBMs like the DF-26. MRMB-based ASBM like the DF-21 ASBM variant can be handled by the SM-6. But all of this is assuming that an ASBM DF-26 operates as effectively as CMO shows. China has the same, and possibly worse, tracking issues as the US has with tracking ASBMs.

What you are seeing is the very real gaps the US has in ABM engagements. It shows the coordinated dance the US has to do even with individual missile engagements.



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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/14/2021 2:00:01 AM   
DWReese

 

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quote:

If this is what the US Navy Currently has, then our carriers really are kind of screwed from ASBMs.


I have written volumes about this subject in other threads. Along with several others, we have provided numerous saves, and the topic has been thoroughly discussed. Hopefully, they will get it corrected real soon.

You are correct, you essentially can not play any of these scenarios at the present time using the long range SM-3 IIA missile because the trajectory, and targeting seem to be off and they can't hit anything. The SM-3 IB (200 miles0 has a better chance of hitting, but is very limited.

But, if you are dependent on the SM-3 IIA, and its longer range, forgetaboutit.

Look for the threads. They will likely help you. There are several.

Doug

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/14/2021 2:16:27 AM   
thewood1

 

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While there might be issues with specific engagements in CMO, SM-3s are not a magic bullet even if working perfectly in the game. As I describe above, CMO does reflect the real world issues and current USN capabilities and gaps. If someone is firing DF-26s at you, even with the latest SM-3 variant, you have a very limited window to detect, track, and fire on that missile. And keep in mind that the SM-3 is a theater defense weapon, not a point/fleet defense weapon. The key for the USN in the future for fleet defense against ASBM is a variant of the SM-6 that can handle IRBMs. Lasers might eventually the answer, but probably not in the timeframe of CMO.

Keep in mind that CMO also provides pretty significant local countermeasures for USN ships against ASBM attacks also. My anecdotal experience is that unmolested ABSM attacks are at best 50% effective against the most modern USN ships.

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RE: ABM Defense of Carrier Group - 5/14/2021 2:51:47 AM   
gennyo

 

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From my tinkering results, SM-3s and THAADs in CMO need some range (and therefore time) for them to "nudge" themselves into intercept course. If the launch site is nearer than about 500nm so to speak, those intercept missiles are almost guaranteed to miss or overshoot. Beyond 1000nm, the long range SM-3 blk IIas and GBIs performs better, if you have more than 20 of them engaging to a cluster of incoming missiles, which is not much inside the possiblitiy of reality.

And I have Cobra Kings and multiple TPYs (the engagement radar for THAAD, good for firing solutions) on my cruisers.

And with such a deluxe unreal setup, all HTK missile could archieve is about 30-50% of intercepts in 1147.23, I didn't check 24 but it should not behave differently.

The lastest score I have with my setup is, for 240 DF-26s, about 30% (most of them are shot from NE China) are downed with missiles, the rest of them are killed inside the 150nm engage of COIL ABM Lasers (#1203). I have about 100 laser guns among the ships, so the once per 15s RoF and 30% PoK wouldn't help DF-26s to penetrate this force barrier.

Maybe a fleet of HALE drones with laser guns would deal these threats than missiles for protection over the fleet? Even 10nm ones may do much difference IRL, if they could pump enough energy into it.

< Message edited by gennyo -- 5/14/2021 2:53:10 AM >

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