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Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 2:36:06 PM   
generalfdog

 

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With the new version I am wondering if anyone else thinks Japan is to strong? before they would have such severe oil issues that they would run out of steam and the Allies would have time to get some transports and recover now it seems they can just keep rolling and since their initial objectives take a month or so to accomplish instead of 5 months like historical they can destroy Australia and India before the Allies can even respond. I think Philippines, DEI, and Singapore need beefed up or the Allies need some transports earlier, but I've been wrong before
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 3:08:37 PM   
eskuche

 

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Yes, I am testing out openings: anything ungarrisoned can be taken immediately. DEI and Rabaul are gone turn 1. Port moresby and Fiji and co can fall on turn 2 if done correctly. Singapore turn 3. This is why I initially thought the new naval oil use values were bugged. As long it is planned out, unless USN wants to risk losing everything immediately there is no stopping.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 3:12:43 PM   
stjeand


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Are you playing the AI or a human?

I suspect AI and believe me there is a HUGE difference.


Once you play a human all your thoughts may change.

In WP Europe any side you play against the AI seems overpowered. Then you play a human and suddenly everything changes.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 3:14:58 PM   
eskuche

 

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It doesn’t matter for turns 1-2 because there is no counterplay. The only active units for the allies are air, which doesn’t have oil. Small islands are blockaded immediately which prevents reinforcements.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 3:25:27 PM   
generalfdog

 

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Stjeand you are correct needs to be tested against a human I am working on that it just takes time, the allies just seem to have so little they can do until well in to 42, and if Japan can just keep rolling seems the allies might have an issue. I equate early stages of this to Fall of France if its to hard Axis have a problem if its to easy Allies have a problem, i just think everything being 3 to 5 months ahead of schedule to be an issue for the allies and play balance, it's like France falling in January of 40!

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 3:48:05 PM   
stjeand


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Well if the Japanese do not take the DEI turn 1 or 2...they will be crippled. I suspect they will run out of oil.

So that is required.

Island hopping to every little island is the same.

I don't think most of those islands matter at all. They are just listening posts.


The question will be as the Allies ramp up...what can they do in 42...that will be the interesting thing.


Once the Axis have all the islands...then what?
That Japanese economy is still half of what the US has.

Guess we have to see. It does take a lot of time to get there though and validate.


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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 4:02:23 PM   
Numdydar

 

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The main issue with the '41 start is the game does not model correctly the oil reserves that Japan had stored up before the war began. So Japan is forced to capture areas that were impossible for them to do in the real war. Needless to say this screws up the entire game with a '41 start.

I would strongly suggest that only a '42 start should be used as the '41 start is too broken as things stand now.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 4:15:27 PM   
generalfdog

 

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Versus the computer by the time the Allies can do anything India and Australia are gone and Japan is destroying China, its at least a long road back for the Allies

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 4:47:47 PM   
stjeand


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Did you play historical AI or the upgraded?


Upgraded is SO much tougher.


If the 42 scenario is anything like the 40 Europe scenario no thank you.

The Germans are a mess...as is their economy.

Japan looks okay in 42...

But again you keep saying it all over against the AI.



When I play WP Europe against historical AI it is over when any scenario starts.

Say NO to AI...and play a human.


I am happy to play as the Allies since you believe the Japanese are unstoppable. But Multiplayer has not worked for me in a week so...

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/13/2021 5:02:21 PM   
generalfdog

 

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I think it is the old games got messed up with update, the new games have been working for me. You right new random AI way better I used to be able to win on hardest level either side, any scenario in Europe tried updated on veteran and they giving me a challenge anyway. If you start a game as allies with code "stop" I will accept and we can see what happens

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 5:53:51 AM   
Meteor2


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I would like to know, why this setting for the 41 campaign was chosen.
Giving Japan the oil for a 6-9 month war and aim for historical dates of the conquest for DEI, Burma, Singapore, and so on is a bad idea?
Alvaro or the beta testers can answer the reasoning behind this, because they have that experience, I think.
A discrepancy of 4 month between history and game settings seems to be (to?) much.
???

< Message edited by Meteor2 -- 5/14/2021 7:11:12 AM >

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 7:04:21 AM   
incbob


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I haven't played it all out and am just starting my first game as the Japanese so take this with a grain of salt.

As Japan I have about 2 turns, maybe 3 worth oil and that is it. That is pretty close to what happened. When Japan went to war they had about a month of oil for full deployment.


Japan is supposed to be unstoppable. That is the point. Japan is a glass tiger. They cannot replace their losses. So at the beginning of the game they have to grab for everything they can get. And when they stretch to far, such as invading Australia, or moving to far, to fast, into China and they lose units they increase their chance of losing the game, because it makes them weaker when Allies do get their strength.

Also, are you playing against a human or AI. I have never seen an AI that doesn't need help.
What level of AI are you playing against.

As for Japan conquering to quickly remember this is a Corp/Army level game. So, what do you do with something like the Philippines where the US didn't have strong forces after mid-January.

Take Singapore as an example. Singapore surrendered Feb 7th. But by the time Singapore was ready to surrender the fighting was long past over.
Take the Philippines. Now, if you look it up you find that the Philippines surrendered in May. That makes it sound like it was in doubt till May. It wasn't. By early March the situation was so bad MacArthur had to be ordered out and had to sneak out on a PT boat. That means realistically the fighting was over in February at the latest.

Might it be off a turn or even two. Maybe. You also have to remember game balance. Playing real WW2 would not be fun. It wouldn't be a game.


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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 11:29:34 AM   
gwgardner

 

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+1 what incbob said. Even playing Japan vs AI, what Japan takes has to be held. Play for the long-term, see if you can hold what you have taken late into the war.

Historically, the US didn't respond till mid to late summer '42. It had to ramp up, get supplies moving. Japan didn't take Australia, but it had no intention of doing so anyway. A human player will have different intentions. It was playtester experience that things really heat up in '43 and later, just as in history.

I would urge Alvaro not to change anything with regard to balance until a lot of you guys have played through to the end, to get broader and varied input.

In the meantime, give the AI a big supply/efficiency bonus and a small experience bonus.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 5/14/2021 11:30:55 AM >

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 2:02:10 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Nothing is being changed at the moment. Unlike Europe where each front can be changed in small doses predicting the impact on other fronts, a change in the Pacific impacts the entire game. So more data will be required. Then there is the ability of hindsight in the game. The Japanese should do better than expected if an Axis player understands the flaws the Japanese had in their strategic-level thinking and compensates for them. For the Allies it is a similar situation but not as vitally important.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 2:45:41 PM   
stjeand


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I think a lot more PvP needs to be tested.

All the testing against AI is great for some things but really need to test how humans will react over how AI will react.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 3:34:07 PM   
incbob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

I think a lot more PvP needs to be tested.

All the testing against AI is great for some things but really need to test how humans will react over how AI will react.



I agree, but at this moment I do not feel I know enough about the the game rules yet to play PVP. In truth, I shouldn't have even started an AAR, but no one else was. I am almost there I think. Right now I am working on understanding invasions and understanding the marine island hoping thing.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 4:59:59 PM   
stjeand


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Well I have yet to play a game past 3 turns in and I started a PvP...I just can't seem to get into wanting to play the AI even though I should.

PvP games are where I learn the most. I have played quite a few others that sometimes after 5 or 10 turns we have to restart because of a major mistake and I don't mind.
Then again I know WP Europe pretty well so that will help a LOT with everything BUT I still learn something new almost every game I play.

Having an actual navy that can fight another one will be pretty interesting though.
I look forward to those battles though even if I lose.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 6:57:58 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

I haven't played it all out and am just starting my first game as the Japanese so take this with a grain of salt.

As Japan I have about 2 turns, maybe 3 worth oil and that is it. That is pretty close to what happened. When Japan went to war they had about a month of oil for full deployment.





The fact that you only have 2-3 turn of oil (which is 4-6 weeks) is totally wrong. There are plenty of easy ways to check this out just to see how wrong this is.

Japan had been secretly stockpiling oil since the 30s. They also passed a special law in 1934 to increase the amount of oil they want to save. Here is a good article explaining Japan's oil situation.

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/O/i/Oil.htm#:~:text=By%2013%20March%201941%2C%20the,purchased%20from%20the%20United%20States.

I truly do not understand why something so incorrect in a supposedly historical game, cannot be corrected. We are not talking about 'what if' strategies, or different things that can be done by moving units around. I am talking about something that is grossly factually wrong in the game's data. This should be changed.

All the non-realistic game openings by Japan are done just because the starting amount of oil is incorrect. But yet we have to wait for more data? Really? Why?

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 5/14/2021 7:01:11 PM >

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 7:05:28 PM   
eskuche

 

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I was confused as well because I’ve heard 18 months stockpile tossed around for quite a few times. Perhaps that means 18 months of current production rather than use…?

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 7:06:57 PM   
YueJin

 

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Sorry but how would giving Japan more starting oil change the non-realistic openings? They'd just rush even faster down the Solomon's after the turn 1 DEI surrender and be blockading Nomea and Fiji turn 4. With say, 100 extra oil turn 1 the Japanese could keep the combined fleet at sea supporting invasions and refuelling with oilers for most of 1942.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 7:22:27 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YueJin

Sorry but how would giving Japan more starting oil change the non-realistic openings? They'd just rush even faster down the Solomon's after the turn 1 DEI surrender and be blockading Nomea and Fiji turn 4. With say, 100 extra oil turn 1 the Japanese could keep the combined fleet at sea supporting invasions and refuelling with oilers for most of 1942.


The AI scripts could be changed, obviously.

For PvP the easiest? solution is to keep the DEI neutral until Singapore falls. This would stop Japan rushing the DEI which they could not do until Singapore fell in the real war. It would also prevent the Allies from pilling in a bunch of stuff (also ahistorical). I assume a script could do this which is why I thought this would be the easiest method.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 5/14/2021 7:23:02 PM >

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 7:28:12 PM   
incbob


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Most of the "18 months" stockpile comes from a meeting they had in October of 1941. It was based on the idea that the oil fields of the East Indies had to be taken by March.

In September 1941 Japan had 50 million barrels of oil and the IJN was using about 2,900 per HOUR. That is something over 2 million barrels a month.

Sounds like a lot, but.......

1) The 50 million barrels is not oil just for military use. It is TOTAL oil. Anything that needed oil came from that stockpile. An old woman heating her home, Yep. A chemical factory, Yep. The trains. Yep.

2) That also includes AV gas, ie fuel for planes. What a lot of people don't know is how little AV gas Japan started with. In fact, they wanted to make a last minute deal with the US to just keep the status quo. Part of their deal was to buy a certain amount of AV gas, not oil for the navy, AV gas for planes.

3) If they didn't use their planes, didn't use the IJN then they could last 18 months.


Japan did not just randomly pick Dec 7th. They picked Dec 7th because

1) They outnumbered the US fleet and new in the near future they wouldn't.

2) They knew it would take time to get any captured oil resources up and producing oil and they didn't want to cut it any closer.

< Message edited by incbob -- 5/14/2021 7:30:11 PM >

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 7:33:58 PM   
incbob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
This would stop Japan rushing the DEI which they could not do until Singapore fell in the real war.


Where do you get this idea?

Japan attacked Singapore and one week later the Borneo. They only waited to attack the Netherland East Indie, not because they couldn't, but because they hoped to keep Netherlands neutral until they were finished with Singapore and Borneo.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 8:18:58 PM   
stjeand


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IF DEI would remain neutral then add oil to the Japanese and all would be fine.


IF the DEI are at war with Japan then their units will get upgraded to be pretty strong against the Axis. Add to that the possibility that the Allies could reinforce the island. If Japan can't take it you can end the game there because they will be out of oil.

In WPE this was the All In France manuover...It is horrible for the game. I stopped many newer Axis players in France and beat them.


I say just play the game and see if it causes an issue the basic AI is not acceptable to use and say it does not work.


I mean in this game the Japanese could invade Hawaii on turn 3...is that historical? No...BUT I could do it...and if it fell they US would be in trouble.


So in reading the data that Numdydar provided...The Japanese appear to have had 3/4 of a year of oil stored up at the start of 1942.
I think the game lets them move a LOT more than they actually could so that changes things a bit...as the Japanese player can build more transports for oil which would be a WISE decision.

It may be a bit a historical but I am not sure it constitutes a huge issue with the game...guess you have to play to test.

I just started one and anyone else that wants to start one let me know. I will happily play the Allies and "lose" as everyone keeps saying.



BUT I can tell you...IF hindsight was 20/20 the Japanese WOULD have invaded the DEI first for oil alone, if they knew they were going to run out.


Easy to modify...add lots of oil to the Japanese and make a house rule to leave DEI alone until say March...See if that changes anything.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/14/2021 8:40:47 PM   
YueJin

 

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I'm decently pleased with my position in the three Allied PBEM games I have going. The main problem I've seen most Allied players have is keeping the Indian front alive throughout 1942 as it can collapse in just a couple of turns if handled poorly. People likely need to adjust their expectations and plan to lose every VP hex in 1942 apart from Delhi, Sydney, Chungking, Chengtu, Kunming and the US West Coast against a good Japanese player. If the Japanese extend too far they should find themselves being cut off in late 1943 as long as a front hasn't disintegrated completely.

< Message edited by YueJin -- 5/14/2021 8:41:00 PM >

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/15/2021 7:52:24 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
This would stop Japan rushing the DEI which they could not do until Singapore fell in the real war.


Where do you get this idea?

Japan attacked Singapore and one week later the Borneo. They only waited to attack the Netherland East Indie, not because they couldn't, but because they hoped to keep Netherlands neutral until they were finished with Singapore and Borneo.


From here. Starting on page 28
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a202272.pdf



To secure the resources of South East Asia and to quickly destroy the military opposition of the United States and Great Britain, Japan developed four strategic options:1o (see oil map, page 10)

1. Seize the Netherlands Indies, then the Philippines and Malaya.

2. Advance methodically from the Philippines to Borneo, then Java, Sumatra. and finally Malaya.

3. Reverse the above course by starting with Malaya and ending with the Philippines, thus delaying an attack on American
territory until last.

4. Simultaneously attack the Philippines and Malaya, followed by converging attacks on the Indies.

The first plan was deemed unacceptable because it would expose Japanese forces and their lines of communication to attack from both the Philippines and Malaya. The Navy advocated the second plan. It would allow early seizure of US bases in the Philippines which sat astride lines of communication, and it would allow a cautious advance south, securing air and naval
bases from which to operate in each phase. The Army, however, said that Plan Two would allow the Allies to strengthen their
defenses in the Netherlands Indies and Malaya while Japan was fighting In the Philippines. The Army favored Plan Three. It
allowed the early seizure of critical resources and delayed attacks on American bases as much as possible. But, the Navy was
opposed to Plan Three, arguing that the risk of exposing their lines of communication to American naval and air forces was too great.

This left Plan Four, which called for simultaneous attacks against the Philippines and Malaya, followed by sweeps into the Indies from opposite directions. Although this plan would eliminate the US threat in the Philippines while placing Japanese forces in Sumatra. Java, and Borneo more quickly than Plan Two, it required a dispersion of forces, advance along two axes, and posed difficult coordination problems. But, it compromised the positions of the Army and Navy and was therefore adopted.


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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/15/2021 3:47:22 PM   
incbob


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Thanks.

I thought you were talking about actualities, not plans.


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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/15/2021 4:28:32 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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This is my take so everyone understands.

If half the players are saying the oil situation is fine and half the players are complaining they are running out of oil, then the oil situation is balanced.... so far.

There is absolutely no way I can perfectly mimic the conditions on December 7th 1941 for the oil situation. There are so many variables to consider. So we start from history then design from there taking into account hindsight. Included is both sides managing their resources.

Just remember everyone this is FUN wargame based on history, not a historical recreation.

_____________________________

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Designer Strategic Command
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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/15/2021 5:28:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

Thanks.

I thought you were talking about actualities, not plans.




I guess you did not see the section where it said

This left Plan Four, which called for simultaneous attacks against the Philippines and Malaya, followed by sweeps into the Indies from opposite directions. Although this plan would eliminate the US threat in the Philippines while placing Japanese forces in Sumatra. Java, and Borneo more quickly than Plan Two, it required a dispersion of forces, advance along two axes, and posed difficult coordination problems. But, it compromised the positions of the Army and Navy and was therefore adopted.


This WAS the plan the Japanese went with in 'actuality'.

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RE: Japanese Unstoppable? - 5/15/2021 5:52:02 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

This is my take so everyone understands.

If half the players are saying the oil situation is fine and half the players are complaining they are running out of oil, then the oil situation is balanced.... so far.

There is absolutely no way I can perfectly mimic the conditions on December 7th 1941 for the oil situation. There are so many variables to consider. So we start from history then design from there taking into account hindsight. Included is both sides managing their resources.

Just remember everyone this is FUN wargame based on history, not a historical recreation.


I'm sorry but but a 'fun' wargame for me is you start with the actual historical data that you have to create the actual positions the opposing sides start with. Before any moves have been made. This has been completely ignored in this game with a '41 start. You might as well have dwarfs and elves running around as that could be 'fun' too.

Also the starting data is NOT based on history at all. Which is why I am constantly pointing it out.

You could have just looked at the data in War in the Pacific at the '41 start and converted the resource pools in that game to your system. But it looks like you completely ignored all the data available of what Japan had as resources to make a 'fun' game.

I'm sorry but that just does not cut it for me. The '41 start just has so many things wrong with it, I do not see it ever getting corrected since it appears that it would not make the game 'fun'.

I have played Japan a lot in WitP AE and I found the historical 'restrictions' on Japan's early moves to be a lot of 'fun'. But apparently you think Japan has to have massive ahistorical advantages in order for Japanese players to have 'fun'.

One suggestion would be to make a '41 historical start scenario and then have the current '41 scenario start be a Japan Fantasy start

One reason I am so harsh about all of this is I hate revisionist history and this game takes that to a new level with the '41 start as things stand now.

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