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Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept

 
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Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 5:47:56 AM   
Sieppo


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Showed incredible firepower so designed a monitor tank with a tactical nuclear grenade launcher. However turned out to have just inept attack values (100-200) and really does not perform in battle. What's the catch with the weapon?

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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 7:21:33 AM   
GuardsmanGary

 

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Look at how many attacks per round it gets. That's the catch.

(in reply to Sieppo)
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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 8:11:53 AM   
Sieppo


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From: Helsinki, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GuardsmanGary

Look at how many attacks per round it gets. That's the catch.


Ahh yeah, a hundred . But it's still totally unable ton kill anything in battle. Just retreats after 1-3 rounds... Could this be the problem with more powerful weapons getting just more attacks? When none of those attacks are able to kill any enemies?

(in reply to GuardsmanGary)
Post #: 3
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 8:13:19 AM   
Sieppo


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From: Helsinki, Finland
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I mean the attack power is just feeble..




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 9:17:24 AM   
Zanotirn

 

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There is no damage reduction for the attack power to overcome; when it comes to hitting a single target, 2 attacks of N power should have the same chance as one attack of 2N power. Except when you have one attack you can only possibly hit one target and can waste attack power (any attack power above the target's hitpoints has diminishing returns when it comes to chances to hit per attack power).

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Post #: 5
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 9:47:31 AM   
zgrssd

 

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Aside from the insane amount of attacks, Nuclear Weapons also are not subject to the callibre calculation.
But as you found out, it hardly maters as HP can reach the hundreds to thousands.

What exactly are you firing at? What is the base HP and the effective HP after entrenchment?

(in reply to Zanotirn)
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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 10:18:07 AM   
guizzmo

 

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The reason why your monitor tank is doing no damage is probably because you started the game on a previous. You need to restart a game on 1.09 in order to use those.

There was a rounding error which made the monitor tank use 0 ammo. Since 1.09, it has been changed, but the model still requests no ammo. There is therefore a 0% ammo modifier which prevents the monitor tank from doing any damage with tac nukes.

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Post #: 7
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 10:20:15 AM   
guizzmo

 

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When it works, it is by far the best tank in the game, easily wiping whole units. Nothing can withstand the whooping 14600 attack it does (and with atomic weapon applied research, the damage becomes absurd).

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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 10:21:11 AM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
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From: Helsinki, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Aside from the insane amount of attacks, Nuclear Weapons also are not subject to the callibre calculation.
But as you found out, it hardly maters as HP can reach the hundreds to thousands.

What exactly are you firing at? What is the base HP and the effective HP after entrenchment?


These robot weaklings that all my other armor have no problem massacring..






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 5/11/2021 10:22:23 AM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 9
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 10:25:30 AM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
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From: Helsinki, Finland
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I'm going to test a similar size unit with heavy plasma blasters that half the firepower but of course much larger attack value (only one attack though) how they fare..

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 10
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 10:26:46 AM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: guizzmo

When it works, it is by far the best tank in the game, easily wiping whole units. Nothing can withstand the whooping 14600 attack it does (and with atomic weapon applied research, the damage becomes absurd).


Apparently it is not working?

(in reply to guizzmo)
Post #: 11
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 10:27:37 AM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: guizzmo

The reason why your monitor tank is doing no damage is probably because you started the game on a previous. You need to restart a game on 1.09 in order to use those.

There was a rounding error which made the monitor tank use 0 ammo. Since 1.09, it has been changed, but the model still requests no ammo. There is therefore a 0% ammo modifier which prevents the monitor tank from doing any damage with tac nukes.


Ahh thanks! I was wondering why there was no ammo on the unit and they kept asking for ammo. Problem solved!

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Post #: 12
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 1:46:47 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Aside from the insane amount of attacks, Nuclear Weapons also are not subject to the callibre calculation.
But as you found out, it hardly maters as HP can reach the hundreds to thousands.

What exactly are you firing at? What is the base HP and the effective HP after entrenchment?


These robot weaklings that all my other armor have no problem massacring..






2417 HP???
I expected something like 400 before Armor Roll and Entrechnment - this is a whole Magnitude above that.
I think there is a Bug with the HP For Robotic Infantry.

But using 196 Attck vs 2417 HP:
1D196 vs 1D2417
2221 Results or 91.890773686388084402151427389326% where only the defender can win.
8,11% are split equally between Attacker and Defender Win.
So 4.055% Chance for the Attacker to win, 95,945% chance for the Defender to win.

Even if you fix the issue with the Gun having no Ammo, those are not good chances!

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 5/11/2021 1:47:07 PM >

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 13
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 2:23:19 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Aside from the insane amount of attacks, Nuclear Weapons also are not subject to the callibre calculation.
But as you found out, it hardly maters as HP can reach the hundreds to thousands.

What exactly are you firing at? What is the base HP and the effective HP after entrenchment?


These robot weaklings that all my other armor have no problem massacring..






2417 HP???
I expected something like 400 before Armor Roll and Entrechnment - this is a whole Magnitude above that.
I think there is a Bug with the HP For Robotic Infantry.

But using 196 Attck vs 2417 HP:
1D196 vs 1D2417
2221 Results or 91.890773686388084402151427389326% where only the defender can win.
8,11% are split equally between Attacker and Defender Win.
So 4.055% Chance for the Attacker to win, 95,945% chance for the Defender to win.

Even if you fix the issue with the Gun having no Ammo, those are not good chances!


Yeah I mean I think there is something very much broken with Vic's decision to give more powerful weapons more attacks instead of more power with the battle mechanics he has given the game. What can you do, hope he reads this.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 14
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 4:51:32 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Aside from the insane amount of attacks, Nuclear Weapons also are not subject to the callibre calculation.
But as you found out, it hardly maters as HP can reach the hundreds to thousands.

What exactly are you firing at? What is the base HP and the effective HP after entrenchment?


These robot weaklings that all my other armor have no problem massacring..






2417 HP???
I expected something like 400 before Armor Roll and Entrechnment - this is a whole Magnitude above that.
I think there is a Bug with the HP For Robotic Infantry.

But using 196 Attck vs 2417 HP:
1D196 vs 1D2417
2221 Results or 91.890773686388084402151427389326% where only the defender can win.
8,11% are split equally between Attacker and Defender Win.
So 4.055% Chance for the Attacker to win, 95,945% chance for the Defender to win.

Even if you fix the issue with the Gun having no Ammo, those are not good chances!


Yeah I mean I think there is something very much broken with Vic's decision to give more powerful weapons more attacks instead of more power with the battle mechanics he has given the game. What can you do, hope he reads this.

My main issue was about the Robots HP's being a Order of Magnitude higher then I expected. That is going to ruin everything.

I agree that the splitting needs some work. I actually made a suggestion on that thematic:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4952524

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 15
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 5:35:44 PM   
laagamer


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As a new player, all I'm getting out of this is don't use nukes.

(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 8:23:21 PM   
Malagant

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laagamer

As a new player, all I'm getting out of this is don't use nukes.



And get some robots!

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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/11/2021 11:17:45 PM   
newageofpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laagamer

As a new player, all I'm getting out of this is don't use nukes.


Nukes work fine, nuke monitors were bugged in Sieppo's game's patch.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malagant
And get some robots!


Robots cost HiTech, which make them worthless due to how rare HiTech is (compared to the advantage of using your scarce HiTech to make some Plasma weapons instead of robots)

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 18
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/12/2021 5:12:57 AM   
KingHalford

 

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Nukes are incredibly powerful, and hi-tech is not rare, you can build them in the hi-tech factory easily enough.

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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/12/2021 8:39:42 PM   
newageofpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Nukes are incredibly powerful, and hi-tech is not rare, you can build them in the hi-tech factory easily enough.

You'll notice that upgrading the HT factory consumes HT, -and- takes forever, in any practical game they take forever to accrue.

(in reply to KingHalford)
Post #: 20
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/13/2021 12:04:03 PM   
KingHalford

 

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I don't usually bother with upgrading any kind of industry or factory until I've gotten the level 1 version on most of my zones. In my current game I've got 47 cities so accumulating a lot of anything is not a problem, and HT is no exception.

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(in reply to newageofpower)
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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/14/2021 1:54:33 AM   
newageofpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I don't usually bother with upgrading any kind of industry or factory until I've gotten the level 1 version on most of my zones. In my current game I've got 47 cities so accumulating a lot of anything is not a problem, and HT is no exception.

The thing is, factories/mines/etc get dramatically more efficient & effective the higher level they are. Thus for resources other than HT (IP, Power, Machinery, etc) you want to centralize production wherever it makes sense. The problem with HiTech factories requiring dramatically more HT to upgrade means that you'll have like 47 HiTech a turn from your factory spam... and that's not even enough to arm a light infantry formation with Plasma Rifles (which would be a waste, you should be using Tanks or Walkers with Plasma Rifles, but that costs even more HT.)

Which is absolutely bonkers, imho, but that's the problem with HiTech production today.

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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/14/2021 12:07:44 PM   
KingHalford

 

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No that's not right. One Level 1 Hi-Tech Industry produces 5 HiTech. So that's not 47 per turn, that's 5 x 47 which is 235 per turn.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 5/14/2021 12:08:14 PM >


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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/14/2021 6:24:10 PM   
BlueTemplar


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This might be of interest to you :
"Early" Monitor Tank - TacNuke FTW !

(in reply to KingHalford)
Post #: 24
RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/16/2021 3:23:12 PM   
zgrssd

 

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On the mater of how deadly this weapon is, there is this little piece of information.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Akrakorn on Saros' Discord decompiled the game executable and posted the info.
quote:

Base default kill chance: 12%
-Artillery/Rockets/Missiles: 5% (regardless of indirect/direct fire)
-Micronuke RPGs, Tactical Grenade Launcher (Monitor Tank): 50%
-Atomic Launcher: 30%
-ICBMs: 90%

I recall reading community discussions indicating artillery has an additional negative modifier to its chance to inflict non-pin hits during direct attack. If so, it should be noted in the combat log. SAM kill chances are listed in the manual section on anti-air weapons.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=5020962

If the normal chance to get a kill hit is 12% of every hit but this weapon has 50% chance to kill for every hit, the chance of a kill hit might be a lot better then the attack and defense values indicate.

100 attacks that have a 8% chance to hit, but 50% chance for each hit to be a kill - that is ~4 guaranteed kills per combat turn, even with such a insanely lopsided defense.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 5/16/2021 3:26:05 PM >

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
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RE: Tactical nuclear grenade launcher just inept - 5/24/2021 2:35:34 PM   
Dampfnudel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

I mean the attack power is just feeble..





This boy has 100 attacks per round. So 146*100=14600 soft attack.

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Post #: 26
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