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Naval oil upkeep - 5/8/2021 3:58:56 AM   
eskuche

 

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From my reading of the manual, fleets use upkeep only if the move/attack and don't end in port. This means that port-to-port transfers are free. However, my big American stack in port says x oil use, where x is the number of ships. From the manual tables, DDs cost 2, CA 2, BB/C 4, CV(L) 3. What is this discrepancy?
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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/8/2021 12:23:34 PM   
gwgardner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

From my reading of the manual, fleets use upkeep only if the move/attack and don't end in port. This means that port-to-port transfers are free. However, my big American stack in port says x oil use, where x is the number of ships. From the manual tables, DDs cost 2, CA 2, BB/C 4, CV(L) 3. What is this discrepancy?


Fleets in port, HQs (except for the Chinese), and multiples of land units do require oil upkeep interturn, but it's less than movement/combat would require. The details on how much are in the manual.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/8/2021 4:26:43 PM   
Friedrich3

 

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The oil use in ports is 1/3. A fleet with an oil use of 9 at sea uses 3 oil for upkeep in a port.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/8/2021 4:51:50 PM   
MemoryLeak


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GWGARDNER, I know your heart is in the right place but each time you "answer" a question I walk away knowing less than I did before. Not starting a war with you but most of your answers are cryptic and or not on topic. But thanks anyway.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/8/2021 6:20:31 PM   
gwgardner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

GWGARDNER, I know your heart is in the right place but each time you "answer" a question I walk away knowing less than I did before. Not starting a war with you but most of your answers are cryptic and or not on topic. But thanks anyway.


I do my best.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/8/2021 7:50:51 PM   
eskuche

 

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I think where I’m confused is when the upkeep number updates. If I move the port fleet to sea, the number doesn’t change, for example.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/8/2021 8:08:45 PM   
Peek101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

I think where I’m confused is when the upkeep number updates. If I move the port fleet to sea, the number doesn’t change, for example.


It gets subtracted from your next turn's starting total, if the naval unit starts the turn out of port. Actually it gets deduced if the naval unit is in port too, it's just less as mentioned above.

< Message edited by Peek101 -- 5/8/2021 9:56:15 PM >

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/8/2021 10:02:12 PM   
ago1000


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The number that appears on the bottom is the total oil used by the group when it's at sea. Every naval group in port uses 1/3 oil. That is, 3 groups in port would use up 1 oil resource. In your production screen, that oil use will show up on a turns upkeep value. Note: There are other oil using units that will also appear in that total.

For example, the pic given shows 26 oil used at sea for upkeep by this naval task force. In port, it would use 3 oil (9/3 naval grps)for upkeep that turn.




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< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/8/2021 10:24:04 PM >


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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 2:48:42 AM   
eskuche

 

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Thanks. This sentence from the manual definitely needs a rewrite, which is why I'm confused.
Any land, air, or naval unit in port not on a map level 9 supply consumes 1/3rd an oil to transport supplies to it by land. Naval units at sea consume their full oil use value as upkeep.


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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 9:44:48 AM   
Friedrich3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

The number that appears on the bottom is the total oil used by the group when it's at sea. Every naval group in port uses 1/3 oil. That is, 3 groups in port would use up 1 oil resource. In your production screen, that oil use will show up on a turns upkeep value. Note: There are other oil using units that will also appear in that total.

For example, the pic given shows 26 oil used at sea for upkeep by this naval task force. In port, it would use 3 oil (9/3 naval grps)for upkeep that turn.




I am not a genius in mathematics but you have to count the total number of oil not the number of naval groups. So a fleet with 26 oil use will use a 1/3 of 26 for upkeep in port = 9 (I think the game rounds up from 8,6). But what is confusing me is the fact that your example is using the rules from the manual. But they are no longer valid for WPP. My Kido Butai has 6 CV, 1 CA, 1 BC, 1 DD and is consuming only 9 oil at sea. But the manual says a CV has an oil use of 3, a BB 4 etc. I guess that's the rule from WPE.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 12:19:09 PM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Friedrich3


quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

The number that appears on the bottom is the total oil used by the group when it's at sea. Every naval group in port uses 1/3 oil. That is, 3 groups in port would use up 1 oil resource. In your production screen, that oil use will show up on a turns upkeep value. Note: There are other oil using units that will also appear in that total.

For example, the pic given shows 26 oil used at sea for upkeep by this naval task force. In port, it would use 3 oil (9/3 naval grps)for upkeep that turn.




I am not a genius in mathematics but you have to count the total number of oil not the number of naval groups. So a fleet with 26 oil use will use a 1/3 of 26 for upkeep in port = 9 (I think the game rounds up from 8,6). But what is confusing me is the fact that your example is using the rules from the manual. But they are no longer valid for WPP. My Kido Butai has 6 CV, 1 CA, 1 BC, 1 DD and is consuming only 9 oil at sea. But the manual says a CV has an oil use of 3, a BB 4 etc. I guess that's the rule from WPE.

This is the upkeep value I get when I take the same task force above and dock it.






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< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/9/2021 12:25:51 PM >


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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 12:20:52 PM   
ago1000


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Sorry for the double post but...this is the upkeep cost at sea with the same task force shown in my original post. I'm using WP Pacific editor to check. The engine is the same for both games.




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< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/9/2021 12:24:32 PM >


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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 5:20:43 PM   
Friedrich3

 

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Hello ago1000, in your calculation is presupposed that 1 naval group is 1 oil (1/3 of 9 = 3). But the oil use of your fleet is in fact 26 (CV = 3, BB =4, CA + DD = 2). And that´s strange. In the grand campaign there is 1 oil per naval group (only modern BB are using 2 oil) so the rules had really changed here. You are playing a smaller scenario right? As I said: In the Axis Campaign my carrier fleet has an oil use of 9 (= 9 naval groups). In the Allies grand campaign 41-45 there were left 15 naval groups in PH after the attack and the oil use was 15.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 7:16:31 PM   
eskuche

 

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Yeah, this looks to be broken currently. Booted up a new '41 game. The full US stack of 2 CV, 5 DD, and 11 (old) BB has a oil use of 18.
Edit: sitting there multiple turns.
Edit 2: this probably explains why my opponent has been able to keep the entire Japanese fleet at sea since turn 1.




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< Message edited by eskuche -- 5/9/2021 7:18:39 PM >

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 7:40:18 PM   
eskuche

 

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Did another test in '41.
See three sequential turns. According to the rules CVL (3) + 2xoldBB (6) + newBB (4) should be costing 13 a turn out at sea and either 1/3 * 5 = 1.67 or 1/3 * 13 = 4.33 per turn in port.
You can see leaving them out only incurs a 4 additional fuel upkeep, which is wrong in any accounting with what upkeep is in port. This also means that the rest of the navy is burning way, way less fuel than it should be.
This probably leaves the game unplayable in its current state, as my opponent has been zipping around with 3 ship blockades and entire fleets in the first few turns.




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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 8:28:15 PM   
ago1000


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Just wondering in your calculations have you taken into account all land and air units off of rail and included them in your sum? They will use up 1/3 oil to represent trucks delivering supply. That will show up in the upkeep calculation hence the note in my first post. So to calculate the upkeep in the 41 scenario for the allies, you need to also count those land units off rail (ie: not on a supply level 9 hex). That will take a while.. The pics I see above simply show naval units. So in my example, I have removed all land and air units, especially those that are off rail (supply level 9 hex). As a result, I'm looking at only one task force in port and then at sea and the game is doing the calculations for me.

Oil Upkeep is 3 units 1 oil for any land, air unit off rail (supply hex not 9).


In the pic below, you can see 3 units off rail in the 41 scenario, so 1 oil resource would be used for upkeep.




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< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/9/2021 8:29:56 PM >


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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 8:32:42 PM   
eskuche

 

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It doesn’t matter in my calculation there because I put them back in port the third turn to show that the four oil difference is due to those ships being at sea. Regardless of whether in-port 1/3 oil per unit upkeep is working, the out of port upkeep costs are completely wrong. If I had to guess, the current costs are programmed as 2+x per ship, where 2 is the base upkeep cost (for DD CA) and x is the overage for capitals and negative for motorboats and subs. Thus the shown upkeep for CV, BB, 2xbb is 1 + 2 + 1(2) = 5 but should actually be 15 edit:13.

< Message edited by eskuche -- 5/9/2021 8:37:17 PM >

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 9:10:30 PM   
ago1000


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Could be simply that the manual hasn't been updated to reflect the new values. (Manual says Destroyer group should use 2 oil) The mechanics do work as intended. 4 upkeep oil(Your saying 8) when at sea and 1 oil use when in port. Edit: But the individual values for each group are not correct. You can see it in the details screen.

Values seem to be:
BB - 2 oil use or 1(WW1 BBs), CVs - 1 oil use CA - 1 oil use DD - 1 oil use SS - 1 oil use Patrol Grp = 0.

Edit 2:
@Friedrich3
I'm creating my scenario from scratch and the default values of oil for each naval unit is the same as the manual. I believe they were changed for the scenario.








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< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/9/2021 9:48:03 PM >


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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 9:49:29 PM   
eskuche

 

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If creating from scratch works, then there is something either wrong or undefined (or that I somehow missed in the scenario notes) for the ‘41 campaign. This (edit: this = the manual not being correct) doesn’t make any sense at all, since it is the flagship scenario for the game. As the game stands, there’s nothing stopping the Japanese just from running all their CV into Allied stacks before summer ‘42.

< Message edited by eskuche -- 5/9/2021 9:53:13 PM >

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 10:04:31 PM   
ago1000


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I've just started the 41 scenario so I can't say what the impact is. With that said I'd say your spot on with your observation. The values do not match the manual provided. I know with Warplan (Europe) Alvaro was always adjusting values and then the manual would be updated afterwards. Only he can answer the rational for the change in values within the scenarios if intentional.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/9/2021 10:05:16 PM >


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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/9/2021 10:52:14 PM   
eskuche

 

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I posted a bug report. I just tested this out by putting the entire Japanese navy to sea, and upkeep was less than production. I think I am pausing play until this (now obvious) bug is fixed.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/10/2021 2:25:38 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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The reason why you are getting different results is because the default data was set to WarPlan Europe. When I made the scenarios I manually changed the data and forgot to change the hard coded data.

The hard code has been corrected.

Also the manual is wrong. I believe after the manual was made I made oil changes to the units and forgot to update it.

Each naval unit uses 1 oil except battle groups with Heavy Warships which uses 2.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/10/2021 3:29:59 PM   
incbob


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We need a thread, stickied, for rule clarifications and manual changes.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/10/2021 3:51:26 PM   
eskuche

 

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Yes, agreed. Learning the game when half the numbers are wrong is becoming a very frustrating experience.

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RE: Naval oil upkeep - 5/10/2021 3:55:14 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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What is important is that the game is correct and less expensive than the manual. I went over the manual twice and manuals have errors. We are all human.

I am going through the manual today a 3rd time and I will post an updated manual sometimes this week.

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