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Should France be able to resist Germany?

 
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Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 10:36:52 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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France arguably could have won in 1939 - or at least dealt the Germans a heavy set-back - if they committed to a full offensive when the Germans attacked Poland. Should this scenario be represented in this game by making the French stronger initially? Or would that un-balance the game too much?
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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 10:45:25 AM   
EarlyDoors


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I believe that French National Morale is correctly modelled

Although the motivations of De Gaulle, Giraud and Darlan are not

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 11:16:57 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

I believe that French National Morale is correctly modelled



ROFL!

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 11:46:10 AM   
ForzaA

 

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June 1940, the French are in Berlin with British help.

Now what. Where's your game?

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 11:54:51 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ForzaA

June 1940, the French are in Berlin with British help.

Now what. Where's your game?


Yeah, that's the obvious concern. So perhaps find a middle ground - maybe give France a few more units initially and also let de Gaulle's government exile a bit stronger? (I don't even know what happens on the Allies side once France capitulates.)

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 2:48:05 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

France arguably could have won in 1939 - or at least dealt the Germans a heavy set-back - if they committed to a full offensive when the Germans attacked Poland. Should this scenario be represented in this game by making the French stronger initially? Or would that un-balance the game too much?


I have also raised this issue. I played a game as France because I have never understood why they folded so quickly when they had the biggest army in Europe.

In the game, they only have a small force to counter the Germans. It's been explained to me that this has been done to accurately reflect just how rubbish they were. It makes the fall of France historically accurate because there is nothing France can do.

A good what-if scenario would be to use the editor to give the French additional units you think they should have. However, do you really want the French to defy history? A victorious France would force everyone on the continent to buy bread that goes stale after 2 hours, eat snails/frogs/stop washing and use perfume.

I think the games modelling of France is flawed, but it works for humanity in the long run.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 3:02:10 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts

I have also raised this issue. I played a game as France because I have never understood why they folded so quickly when they had the biggest army in Europe.

In the game, they only have a small force to counter the Germans. It's been explained to me that this has been done to accurately reflect just how rubbish they were. It makes the fall of France historically accurate because there is nothing France can do.

A good what-if scenario would be to use the editor to give the French additional units you think they should have. However, do you really want the French to defy history? A victorious France would force everyone on the continent to buy bread that goes stale after 2 hours, eat snails/frogs/stop washing and use perfume.

I think the games modelling of France is flawed, but it works for humanity in the long run.


I wouldn't say the French military were "rubbish" in 1940. They were comparable to the Germans in terms of manpower; and they actually had more tanks - and better equipment in some respects. Germans obviously had better leadership, doctrine, and morale. But the Germans left some 20 divisions in the Western front when they went into Poland, and it strains credulity to believe that the French would not have done serious damage with five times the personnel that the Germans had defending. Of course, I guess Gamelin could not have gone all-out with the French civilian leadership wanting to avoid - or at least postpone - a full-scale war; but what if the French were led by someone like Churchill, someone who recognized the true threat that Hitler posed?

The game-play repercussions of approximating the real French strength in 1939 are serious, I agree, and I guess that's the crux of the problem.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 3:05:02 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


A good what-if scenario would be to use the editor to give the French additional units you think they should have.


By the way, have you tried this yourself? I tried it with another nation, and I get this message "some scripts need to be updated" when I try to save.

Do you know if I can just ignore this message?

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 3:10:04 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts

I have also raised this issue. I played a game as France because I have never understood why they folded so quickly when they had the biggest army in Europe.

In the game, they only have a small force to counter the Germans. It's been explained to me that this has been done to accurately reflect just how rubbish they were. It makes the fall of France historically accurate because there is nothing France can do.

A good what-if scenario would be to use the editor to give the French additional units you think they should have. However, do you really want the French to defy history? A victorious France would force everyone on the continent to buy bread that goes stale after 2 hours, eat snails/frogs/stop washing and use perfume.

I think the games modelling of France is flawed, but it works for humanity in the long run.


I wouldn't say the French military were "rubbish" in 1940. They were comparable to the Germans in terms of manpower; and they actually had more tanks - and better equipment in some respects. Germans obviously had better leadership, doctrine, and morale. But the Germans left some 20 divisions in the Western front when they went into Poland, and it strains credulity to believe that the French would not have done serious damage with five times the personnel that the Germans had defending. Of course, I guess Gamelin could not have gone all-out with the French civilian leadership wanting to avoid - or at least postpone - a full-scale war; but what if the French were led by someone like Churchill, someone who recognized the true threat that Hitler posed?

The game-play repercussions of approximating the real French strength in 1939 are serious, I agree, and I guess that's the crux of the problem.



The GAME dictates the french are weak. You cannot succeed as France. The best you can do is add a month or two before surrendering.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 3:13:33 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


The GAME dictates the french are weak. You cannot succeed as France. The best you can do is add a month or two before surrendering.


I know! The issue is whether something should be done about it, and what, if yes.

Perhaps China should be weaker as a compensation? And I know Italy's performance was terrible, but they should have more units in the field - so maybe they can be slightly buffed, too...

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 5:30:23 PM   
Platoonist


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Against the Axis AI, there is nothing to keep the French from grabbing the empty Saar mining area hex with an army. That unit might find itself out on a limb later though.

French mobilization was slow and bureaucratic and took weeks to complete. I think the game reflects that well, in that so many French units are at half strength and need to be filled out. And a French offensive certainly would not have saved Poland from being squeezed out by the Wehrmacht and the Red Army.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 5:58:36 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

French mobilization was slow and bureaucratic and took weeks to complete.


Agreed. There was a problem at the level of leadership and doctrine.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

I think the game reflects that well, in that so many French units are at half strength and need to be filled out.


I am not sure. Can France even mobilize to reflect its true strength in April/May of 1940 in this game? I have yet to play Allies, but I doubt this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist
And a French offensive certainly would not have saved Poland from being squeezed out by the Wehrmacht and the Red Army.


Too many variables. It may have forced a wholesale withdrawal of the Germans prematurely - leaving the field between the Poles and the Soviets. And if France attacks early enough - and penetrate deeply early - perhaps the Soviets do not enter the field. (They took their time entering Poland - just as they took their time entering Manchuria.) Stalin was a cautious man.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 6:49:08 PM   
Bo Rearguard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

I am not sure. Can France even mobilize to reflect its true strength in April/May of 1940 in this game? I have yet to play Allies, but I doubt this.



You can get the starting French units up to strength before the Germans attack. Your biggest headache as the French is the tech and leadership disadvantage you face against the Germans. German infantry usually have infantry weapons level one by this point and their HQs have far better leadership ratings and there are more of them. All this in addition to dedicated tank units on their side. And the one French fighter unit usually gets overwhelmed and blown out of the sky rather quick.

When playing the French I usually scrap the one tactical bomber unit for some spare MPPs. It's rather useless. Also, try to bring a corps over from Algeria even if it does increase Italian mobilization. Every little bit helps

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/6/2021 8:30:38 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard


You can get the starting French units up to strength before the Germans attack. Your biggest headache as the French is the tech and leadership disadvantage you face against the Germans. German infantry usually have infantry weapons level one by this point and their HQs have far better leadership ratings and there are more of them. All this in addition to dedicated tank units on their side. And the one French fighter unit usually gets overwhelmed and blown out of the sky rather quick.

When playing the French I usually scrap the one tactical bomber unit for some spare MPPs. It's rather useless. Also, try to bring a corps over from Algeria even if it does increase Italian mobilization. Every little bit helps


Thanks for all the useful info!

So what is my objective as Allies when it comes to France ultimately then? Just hold up the Germans and bleed them for as long as possible? Is this wise investment in the end?

Also, what about recruiting more air and possibly ground assets as Britain and then sending them over before the Germans start attacking?

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/7/2021 10:58:20 AM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

Thanks for all the useful info!

So what is my objective as Allies when it comes to France ultimately then? Just hold up the Germans and bleed them for as long as possible? Is this wise investment in the end?


That seems to be the general consensus here. Just hold out for as long as possible....

quote:

Also, what about recruiting more air and possibly ground assets as Britain and then sending them over before the Germans start attacking?


Playing as CW, I did the opposite. Yes, I sent the expeditionary force over to keep up French morale but nothing more. In history (and the game) France is a lost cause. When France started to crumble, I evacuated the EF ASAP and re-based them to where they could actually make a difference - N Africa and Malaya. This worked for me in the long term.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/7/2021 2:13:08 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


Playing as CW, I did the opposite. Yes, I sent the expeditionary force over to keep up French morale but nothing more. In history (and the game) France is a lost cause. When France started to crumble, I evacuated the EF ASAP and re-based them to where they could actually make a difference - N Africa and Malaya. This worked for me in the long term.


I will try that then - when I do get to playing the Allies!

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/7/2021 2:26:08 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


Playing as CW, I did the opposite. Yes, I sent the expeditionary force over to keep up French morale but nothing more. In history (and the game) France is a lost cause. When France started to crumble, I evacuated the EF ASAP and re-based them to where they could actually make a difference - N Africa and Malaya. This worked for me in the long term.


I will try that then - when I do get to playing the Allies!


One tip you will probably ignore. Play as an allied power, not the allies as a whole. Much more fun.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/7/2021 2:27:07 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts

One tip you will probably ignore. Play as an allied power, not the allies as a whole. Much more fun.


Yeah, I don't trust the AI! ;) Perhaps once I get better at this game...

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/7/2021 5:01:43 PM   
Bo Rearguard


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I had one game against the AI where I managed to keep France propped up until November 1940. I had the sacrifice the whole B.E.F. to do it. By that point there wasn't much left of the Third Republic, but I'm sure it put a crimp in Der Führer's future plans.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/7/2021 8:07:56 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard

I had one game against the AI where I managed to keep France propped up until November 1940. I had the sacrifice the whole B.E.F. to do it. By that point there wasn't much left of the Third Republic, but I'm sure it put a crimp in Der Führer's future plans.



Was it worth it? More specifically, did it give you better end game result as Allies than if you pulled out early?

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/7/2021 8:14:12 PM   
Tanaka


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One thing I've noticed is that the "Germans approach Paris event and French morale falls" seems to occur way too early. Like while the French still have a good defense up near the border. I think this event should occur when the Germans are actually closer to Paris and it would allow the French to put up a better fight without having to change much at all...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 5/7/2021 8:19:19 PM >


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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/7/2021 8:55:56 PM   
Bo Rearguard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

Was it worth it? More specifically, did it give you better end game result as Allies than if you pulled out early?


Hard to say as I can't interrogate the AI as I might a human player. But having to forgo for months the plunder you reap from the fall of France probably didn't help the AI Axis cause any. I did notice the invasion of the Soviet Union started later than usual. In June instead of the first decent weather months in the spring, and some units arrived into action under-strength. The Axis AI also had to conduct its Yugoslavia campaign in some really bad winter weather.


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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/8/2021 12:31:03 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard


Hard to say as I can't interrogate the AI as I might a human player. But having to forgo for months the plunder you reap from the fall of France probably didn't help the AI Axis cause any. I did notice the invasion of the Soviet Union started later than usual. In June instead of the first decent weather months in the spring, and some units arrived into action under-strength. The Axis AI also had to conduct its Yugoslavia campaign in some really bad winter weather.



I guess I will try both methods and find out - I will likely play this game for a long time anyways! ;)

By the way, thanks for again for the dreadnought tip. No way I would've figured it out on my own!

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/8/2021 2:11:03 AM   
Bo Rearguard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


By the way, thanks for again for the dreadnought tip. No way I would've figured it out on my own!


Actually it was Elessar2 that gave you that dreadnought slot tip. You may have seen him previously in The Lord of the Rings.



I can't take credit for what another forum member did.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/8/2021 12:25:57 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard


Actually it was Elessar2 that gave you that dreadnought slot tip. You may have seen him previously in The Lord of the Rings.



I can't take credit for what another forum member did.


Oops, mea culpa. I am an old man with a faulty memory! ;)

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/9/2021 9:04:34 AM   
Myrddin

 

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Hello Alcibiades

A Strategic Command gamer and Youtuber called To the Last Bullet has uploaded a couple of his efforts to save France against the Axis AI. Look up the Vive la France playlist, if you have time - might be of interest.

( I can't seem to post the link for some reason ).


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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/9/2021 9:56:40 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddin

Hello Alcibiades

A Strategic Command gamer and Youtuber called To the Last Bullet has uploaded a couple of his efforts to save France against the Axis AI. Look up the Vive la France playlist, if you have time - might be of interest.

( I can't seem to post the link for some reason ).




Thanks! - I will try to look.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/11/2021 1:08:25 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddin

Hello Alcibiades

A Strategic Command gamer and Youtuber called To the Last Bullet has uploaded a couple of his efforts to save France against the Axis AI. Look up the Vive la France playlist, if you have time - might be of interest.

( I can't seem to post the link for some reason ).




Thanks! - I will try to look.


Has anyone found this? I would like to see it.

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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/11/2021 1:32:50 PM   
EarlyDoors


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddin

Hello Alcibiades

A Strategic Command gamer and Youtuber called To the Last Bullet has uploaded a couple of his efforts to save France against the Axis AI. Look up the Vive la France playlist, if you have time - might be of interest.

( I can't seem to post the link for some reason ).




Thanks! - I will try to look.


Has anyone found this? I would like to see it.



http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4892971

it may just change your life

< Message edited by EarlyDoors -- 5/11/2021 1:33:58 PM >


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RE: Should France be able to resist Germany? - 5/11/2021 9:08:44 PM   
Wahhim

 

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Hey there, it's Bullet. I've made two series in regard to the defense of France.

Below you've got a link to an outdated playthrough on normal difficulty that ended with the Barbarossa.

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcnp4DrJtZF0gW9Q2UJr-PIiVzfnvjRjL

And here you've got a link to the most recent full playthrough on expert difficulty, excluding bonus experience points.

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcnp4DrJtZF1qhisMBGqsoYl2ygIaRiwk

Hope that helps!


< Message edited by Wahhim -- 5/11/2021 9:09:07 PM >

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