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Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile?

 
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Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 4/29/2021 7:27:20 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Hi All - this Forum seems to have gone a little quiet since the weeks of frenzy earlier this year over the Montenegro Gambit. So I thought I would toss out a new question for others to opine upon.

When is it worthwhile to upgrade a unit with elite reinforcements? Sometimes? Always? Never? I find myself usually ignoring this option, since the elite reinforcements cost double, experienced units have to be withdrawn from the line to be upgraded this way and because in my experience, they don't achieve very much. Their superiority over regular 10 strength units does not seem to last past the first combat in which they take casualties. But I suspect I am missing something. Views?

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RE: Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 4/29/2021 8:00:45 PM   
Bavre

 

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Unlike normal reinforcements, who cost also 10% xp per point, elite ones cost only MPPs. So as long as you can keep an elite unit over 10 it only gains xp through the fights. This comes especially into play if you have some very experienced units to start with, like the BEF in Call to Arms or the Sturmtruppen of the Ludendorff campaign. Overstrength points give exactely the same additional readiness as each normal strength point, so a str 11 and an otherwise identical str 10 unit that are both shot down to 8 will end with the same readiness. The str 11 one just had better stats while at str 11 (and also more buffer).
Gameplay wise I see overstrength as a useful luxury. The unit initially fights better and has more staying power in an extended fight, making it ideal for spearheads. But I would for example not go out of my way to get the initial german units in call to arms to 11, because I need them to get going asap and the money is better spent on cannons, cannons and cannons.
The units that I always give elite reinforcements if funds are available are (big surprise) cannons and also planes.

(in reply to mdsmall)
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RE: Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 4/29/2021 8:56:50 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Hi - that makes sense and is really interesting. I used elite reinforcements once for the Italian submarine, which was very helpful because (as I recall) an 11 strength sub won't trigger a surprise attack if it bumps into a 10 strength destroyer.

BTW: Does artillery have a greater combat effect if it is at elite strength? I thought that their combat effects are purely due to the number of shells they fire and their tech level, and but I have not tested this out.

(in reply to Bavre)
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RE: Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 4/30/2021 3:28:57 PM   
Bavre

 

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Every point of strength (elite or normal) increases readiness. I forgot the exact formula, but it's in the manual. The higher a cannons readiness the higher it's actual attack value (readiness is a straight up multiplier) and therefore it's chance to do damage. Not sure if readiness effects demoralization, though.

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RE: Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 5/1/2021 7:01:33 AM   
ThisEndUp

 

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Not sure if it affects demoralisation either, but artillery-caused casualties are immensely useful for both softening up your target and improving you HQ experience, since it also counts as a successful attack. The exp gain is actually quite significant, especially for the Entente in the earlier stages of the war, since conducting infantry attacks where you cause more damage than you inflict is quite unlikely in 1914-15 when going against Germany.

As an aside, I really dislike the mechanic where taking more casualties than the enemy actually reduces your HQ's experience. Learning from failure is a pretty integral part of doctrinal improvement. In fact, losers tend to study the causes of their failure more comprehensively, leading to greater improvements in ability than the winners, who have a tendency to suffer from 'victory disease', so HQs getting worse despite combat experience irks me quite a bit.

< Message edited by ThisEndUp -- 5/1/2021 7:02:22 AM >

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RE: Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 5/1/2021 4:18:33 PM   
Bavre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThisEndUp

Not sure if it affects demoralisation either, but artillery-caused casualties are immensely useful for both softening up your target and improving you HQ experience, since it also counts as a successful attack. The exp gain is actually quite significant, especially for the Entente in the earlier stages of the war, since conducting infantry attacks where you cause more damage than you inflict is quite unlikely in 1914-15 when going against Germany.

As an aside, I really dislike the mechanic where taking more casualties than the enemy actually reduces your HQ's experience. Learning from failure is a pretty integral part of doctrinal improvement. In fact, losers tend to study the causes of their failure more comprehensively, leading to greater improvements in ability than the winners, who have a tendency to suffer from 'victory disease', so HQs getting worse despite combat experience irks me quite a bit.


I must say I'm not really a fan of the "HQ looses xp for its units poor performance" mechanic, too. Apart from agreeing with ThisEndUps point there's also the purely gameplay wise problem that this reinforces the already very strong principle in the game that if one side starts winning, it quickly becomes more and more unstoppable.

(in reply to ThisEndUp)
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RE: Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 5/1/2021 4:31:07 PM   
mdsmall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bavre

I must say I'm not really a fan of the "HQ looses xp for its units poor performance" mechanic, too. Apart from agreeing with ThisEndUps point there's also the purely gameplay wise problem that this reinforces the already very strong principle in the game that if one side starts winning, it quickly becomes more and more unstoppable.



This aspect of the game is easily fixed in the Game Editor. Just go to Experience Point Allotment under Combat Data and change the setting from -0.5 to 0.0 for Defender HQ losses greater than Attacker losses.

One of the many great things about this game is that if something bugs you, you can often change it yourself in the Game Editor!


(in reply to Bavre)
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RE: Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 5/5/2021 1:59:29 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Hi All - this Forum seems to have gone a little quiet since the weeks of frenzy earlier this year over the Montenegro Gambit. So I thought I would toss out a new question for others to opine upon.

When is it worthwhile to upgrade a unit with elite reinforcements? Sometimes? Always? Never? I find myself usually ignoring this option, since the elite reinforcements cost double, experienced units have to be withdrawn from the line to be upgraded this way and because in my experience, they don't achieve very much. Their superiority over regular 10 strength units does not seem to last past the first combat in which they take casualties. But I suspect I am missing something. Views?




Ah the German question. Immediately and always attack because you have no time to dawdle or upgrade all of your elite units. And for me there is just rarely any time to do so. Which is a shame since Germany is not given any elite units at game start you have to upgrade all of them...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 5/5/2021 2:01:09 AM >


_____________________________


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RE: Elite reinforcements - are they worthwhile? - 5/5/2021 6:46:00 AM   
shri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Hi All - this Forum seems to have gone a little quiet since the weeks of frenzy earlier this year over the Montenegro Gambit. So I thought I would toss out a new question for others to opine upon.

When is it worthwhile to upgrade a unit with elite reinforcements? Sometimes? Always? Never? I find myself usually ignoring this option, since the elite reinforcements cost double, experienced units have to be withdrawn from the line to be upgraded this way and because in my experience, they don't achieve very much. Their superiority over regular 10 strength units does not seem to last past the first combat in which they take casualties. But I suspect I am missing something. Views?





Ideally all the armies should have had 2 types of Units if not 4. 2 are easily moddable i guess.
Your starting infantry esp for the British and Germans should be elite level, British at 12, Germans at 11 (all units) and they should have the usual attack/defense values. French units need to be elite but at strength 10.
All other units should be reservists (any purchased units or mobilised ones including those mobilised in August and September 1914; re-purchases of dead elite units be an exception); so basically you cannot buy elites, only keep and use them judiciously.
They are the only spearheads you have for attacks, use them for attacks and attack only places where you have plenty of them for multiple attacks thus limiting advances.

Reserve units need to have 1 attack less but equal defense and maybe 10% less morale/readiness.

---
The Austrian, Italians, Turks, Minors shouldn't have any elite units at all. Russians need to have 2/3 units maybe the Guards, Guard reserves and that's it, rest all reservists. Austria similarly should have 1/2 elite units at 11 and rest all reservists.

Another thing, cavalry shouldn't be buildable, only what is present and it should all start elite (strength 11, cavalry pre WW1 was a prestigious aristocratic thing) except Russian Cossack cavalry which should start reserve (less 1 attack thing).

This will make the game more historical.
The elite units represent pre war training, also special units like Guards, Alpen Korps, Arditi etc.

(in reply to mdsmall)
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