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French escorts - 4/23/2021 4:36:58 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi Alvaro,

A while ago I asked about if the transfer of French escorts was limited to three and you said you were going to look into it IIRC. Well, it is not even in one of in my game, but I was shocked to hear that a UK player had 40 escorts on map by December 1940 because he made the French build… 7 and got all 10 as transfer.

To be honest I find it almost as bad as the all-in France because it seriously breaks the BOA. For the value of an infantry corps, France can give 5 escorts to the UK. One corps less might not even speed up the fall of France but will give a huge advantage to the UK in escorts. It also circumvents the rule that France can not send PPs (so for all practical purpose it breaks that rule since the PPs are actually given, just as hardware instead of PPs in the end) to the UK and also circumvent the important shipyard limit that was implemented to avoid things like that (BOA more or less won or almost won in 1940). In game, rules are not made to be circumvented since they are there for balance purposes.

It seems to me that a simple fix would be to limit the transfer to 3 escorts (as I assumed it was). If France wants to build more no problem (it might guarantee at least that 3 would be left, why not?). But to purposefully build 5-7 as a post-mortem gift for the UK, should not be allowed. It is quite silly, I think. Unless a way can be found to force the UK to pay for them and just borrow the shipyards? Then less of a problem, but still one since it might still unbalance the BOA. Not sure…

And of course, for role-player wargamers like me, it breaks the mood to see the unrealistic French massive naval program when they are about to face a huge land war and they know it! And I know that WarPlan does take historical context realistically for things like that (hence rules for shipyards, limited lend-lease etc.).


< Message edited by Nirosi -- 4/23/2021 4:42:37 PM >
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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 5:17:30 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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The correct solution would be to reduce their shipyards.

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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 5:32:12 PM   
stjeand


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So they built all naval rather than any defense in France?

Did it collapse fasters?

It is unrealistic. I don't think the French even need shipyards to be honest. But this is interesting. It does cause BOA issues...

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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 5:45:57 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi stjeand,

It could at best make France fall a turn early (or maybe even not, randomness does play a role). For the price of a single corps, they can give 5 escorts (200 PP) to the UK as a gift (so up to 8 counting the 3 from start) for maybe no effect on fall of France. And the rule that France can not lend-lease was obviously there to stop players from siphoning France's PP in favor of the UK Since the UK does need escorts and would have build them if necessary, then this rule is as good as erased and France can therefore now leand-lease to the UK.

Was so hard to balance the BOA, and it is, I thing, more or less ok now, but this, I have no doubt, breaks it again.

But yes, the shipyards fix could be perfect. Add a submarine coming in January or something like that. It will take 10 of the 11 shipyards left. One French escort extra going to the UK is ok, not BOA breaker, and not illogical for the French to have build... Options should still be there, just not the overly unrealistic ones or game breaking ones.

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 4/23/2021 5:48:01 PM >

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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 5:59:29 PM   
Flaviusx


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Sigh. More stupid cheese. I wish people would stop being so creative.

One more house rule for me then: no French naval builds before 1941.

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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 6:32:52 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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It happens in all games. Hubert has the same issues with SC as players got creative.

In World in Flames they have been fighting this battle from the start. Currently the Big BEF is an issue in that game as well. But it is far worse than here. You need to build and play perfect as the Germans to beat the French in 1940 AND get fair weather rolls.

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
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- Assault on Communism SC2
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- Map Image Importer SC3

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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 7:43:22 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Well creativity is ok to find new strategies or even maximise effectiveness. But if a newfound tactic "cancels" a limitation/rule, then it is not ok and we should mention it here in the perspective to keep the integrity/balance of the game. Right now, this tactic cancels the rule of France not been able to leend-lease to the UK. I believe most legal systems forbid someone to do indirectly what is forbidden directly. The French and Soviet PPs where separated from the rest of the Allies (who can trade among themselves at will, not problem with that, it is the same pool anyway) for good reasons. Let's try not to "cancel" that!

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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 8:10:25 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Ha... another one I was told from the same game : another way to indirectly give French PPs to the UK, beside building escorts for them, is to builds AAs for them. Probably not as bad but still annoying in its principle...

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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 8:29:09 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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That I can't stop unless I make them immobile. Which at this point reversing a rule isn't good.

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RE: French escorts - 4/23/2021 8:42:34 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Fair enough!.. This one is not as bad, we can simply imagine it is more Free French. Not a BOA breaker like the escorts.

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RE: French escorts - 4/24/2021 10:17:29 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

That I can't stop unless I make them immobile. Which at this point reversing a rule isn't good.


Alvaro, is it not possible to code it so that AA can only be built in a hex controlled by that nation?

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RE: French escorts - 4/24/2021 11:48:57 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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That creates another set of problems.

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- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 12
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