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German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 3:15:58 AM   
DorianGray

 

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According to https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Ger-1st-Wave-Inf-Divs.pdf, the WiTE2 German 41 1st Wave TOE appears to be missing 74 Motorcycle Squads.

At 1st glance, there is a Motorcycle Squad (Ger 5/40) ground element that may be used for this.

But short-changing all German 1st Wave Infantry Divisions 74 squads is not trivial.
Post #: 1
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 5:54:58 AM   
56ajax


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I think we could argue forever and a day about the combat effectiveness of motorcycle squads. In the old game the Soviet Motorcycle Regiments were next to useless and used to be disbanded on the spot. Now the game does it for you.

Now the game only models those elements that would directly participate in combat operations, and those that do not participate are called Support - this includes medical services, signals, bakery, divisional band, transport, searchlight etc. Now I am not an expert at reading sideways but according to Askey it appears that the Inf Regiments have 24 motorcycle squads and the rest I could argue are classified as Support.

So IMO the German ID (1st Wave) is missing 24 mc squads. These do not appear in the TOE but whether they are compensated in another way I cannot say. And there may be a physical design limitation that has been met, which may explain their absence.

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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 6:52:23 AM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

According to https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Ger-1st-Wave-Inf-Divs.pdf, the WiTE2 German 41 1st Wave TOE appears to be missing 74 Motorcycle Squads.

At 1st glance, there is a Motorcycle Squad (Ger 5/40) ground element that may be used for this.

But short-changing all German 1st Wave Infantry Divisions 74 squads is not trivial.

quote:

German 41 1st Wave TOE


The pre war Waves, and late war contained authorised TOE Mc, here they are by Wave and amount, so its closer to 80 pre war Divs missing the elements.
Wave 1 530
Wave 2 497
Wave 3 425
Wave 4 529
Nada
Wave 21 168
wave 28 138

< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/22/2021 6:55:41 AM >


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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 11:39:53 AM   
Great_Ajax


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Those motorcycle squads are support elements and are not represented by combat motorcycle squads. Most of what you are seeing in this chart are couriers or some other non-combat related support function. Motorcycle squads will only show up in WitE 2 OBs if they are active combat maneuver elements in reconnaissance and motorcycle infantry platoons and companies. The ones one this chart are represented by support squads.

Trey

< Message edited by Great_Ajax -- 4/22/2021 11:40:17 AM >


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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 12:34:59 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Those motorcycle squads are support elements and are not represented by combat motorcycle squads. Most of what you are seeing in this chart are couriers or some other non-combat related support function. Motorcycle squads will only show up in WitE 2 OBs if they are active combat maneuver elements in reconnaissance and motorcycle infantry platoons and companies. The ones one this chart are represented by support squads.

Trey


https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-2.html
Figure 7.--Infantry Division, Old Type

So most of the above are support, but the combat troops are combat elements?.


Section VI. COMBAT TROOPS (FECHTENDE TRUPPEN),




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Post #: 5
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 12:51:39 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Sorry but I'm not understanding your question.

The design intent here is that only elements that would reasonably engage in combat are represented in the OBs. Motorcycle Squads belonging to regimental recon platoons and Motorcycle Companies in the reconnaissance battalions or motorcycle divisional battalions would be represented as combat elements. All other elements such as self-defense LMGs and "light rifle squads" that make up the various support elements such as signal elements, logistical elements are amalgamated into Support Squads even though technically these elements were armed with light weapons.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Those motorcycle squads are support elements and are not represented by combat motorcycle squads. Most of what you are seeing in this chart are couriers or some other non-combat related support function. Motorcycle squads will only show up in WitE 2 OBs if they are active combat maneuver elements in reconnaissance and motorcycle infantry platoons and companies. The ones one this chart are represented by support squads.

Trey


https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-2.html
Figure 7.--Infantry Division, Old Type

So most of the above are support, but the combat troops are combat elements?.


Section VI. COMBAT TROOPS (FECHTENDE TRUPPEN),






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Post #: 6
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 1:06:44 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Sorry but I'm not understanding your question.

The design intent here is that only elements that would reasonably engage in combat are represented in the OBs. Motorcycle Squads belonging to regimental recon platoons and Motorcycle Companies in the reconnaissance battalions or motorcycle divisional battalions would be represented as combat elements. All other elements such as self-defense LMGs and "light rifle squads" that make up the various support elements such as signal elements, logistical elements are amalgamated into Support Squads even though technically these elements were armed with light weapons.




The Germans assigned 20 MC to each Inf Reg as combat elements in sec VI, they also assign MC to Recon Bttn etc in figure 7, you indicated that those deemed to be combat elements ought to be in game and the rest as support elements, i was asking if you were following how the manual terms combat troops, since in one figure itsa 40 odd number value, but only half that classed as combat troops in the next section.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/22/2021 1:10:14 PM >


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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 1:16:19 PM   
DorianGray

 

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Interesting that these elements are included in Nigel Askey's total combat strength calculations and were not discarded.

74 squads? I will have to lookup what his combat stats were for these units as compared to a regular rifle squad to get a better feel for how their absence would be felt. But, at the least, they would have a defensive presence and be there to potentially absorb losses.

I honestly find his published work more credible and worthy of historical reference.

The reason why this is so important for the Germans in this simulation is that the German TOE plays a much more significant factor for the overall military power because they cannot create units out of their butt like their Soviet counterparts.

So, if there are any inaccuracies of Soviet TOEs presents, no big deal because Soviets create more units latter to absorb these unaccounted for elements... Whereas the Germans do not have that luxury.

As a result, the German TOEs stand as a far more limiting factor.

EDIT:

This is what Nigel has as "Overall Attack and Defense" rating for various Infantry Squads. For reference I am including others to help establish a comparable strength ratio.

Hvy Rifle Squad(w lmg): 35.26
Lt Rifle Squad(no lmg): 29.93
Bicycle Squad(no lmg): 22.86
Cav Squad(no lmg): 18.50
Motorcycle Squad(no lmg): 18.70
Pioneer Squad(w lmg): 39.40
Lt Pioneer Squad(no lmg): 29.37

Based on these figures, the missing motorcycle squads were at least as effective as Cav Squads, which are included in the TOE. Additionally, WiTE2 has Motorcycle Squad elements included in the 41 Panzer Divisions, but not in the 41 1st Wave Infantry Divisions?

Makes no sense.

< Message edited by DorianGray -- 4/22/2021 11:22:56 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 1:26:31 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Okay. I see that but just having 20 assigned motorcycles does not mean that the infantry regiment organized them as fighting squads. Those motorcycles could be used in just a courier capacity which is my assumption since each Infantry Regiment had an assigned Reconnaissance Platoon which was typically either a cavalry or bicycle infantry platoon (ie not a motorcycle combat unit). Now, I could be wrong and if you have the KSTNs (or other references) that show these were organized as some kind of reconnaissance or combat troop, then I would definitely take a look at that.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Sorry but I'm not understanding your question.

The design intent here is that only elements that would reasonably engage in combat are represented in the OBs. Motorcycle Squads belonging to regimental recon platoons and Motorcycle Companies in the reconnaissance battalions or motorcycle divisional battalions would be represented as combat elements. All other elements such as self-defense LMGs and "light rifle squads" that make up the various support elements such as signal elements, logistical elements are amalgamated into Support Squads even though technically these elements were armed with light weapons.




The Germans assigned 20 MC to each Inf Reg as combat elements in sec VI, they also assign MC to Recon Bttn etc in figure 7, you indicated that those deemed to be combat elements ought to be in game and the rest as support elements, i was asking if you were following how the manual terms combat troops, since in one figure itsa 40 odd number value, but only half that classed as combat troops in the next section.




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Post #: 9
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 1:35:23 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Just because Askey organized them as squads for the purposes of easily inputting them into a table, does not mean that they were combat squads. I used Askey heavily in all of my work but I couldn't find KSTNs or other organizational data that supported that these motorcycles were combat units. I suspect that he combined a bunch of courier motorcycle sections into "Motorcycle Squads". As part of the design, these support elements do not get a combat presence. Having over half of a division's manpower count towards the combat results would skew the results as they would also count as combat power on the attack and not just in emergency defensive situations. I agree that these support elements could (and were) thrust into combat situations but that is a design choice made by folks much higher up on the development team.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

Interesting that these elements are included in Nigel Askey's total combat strength calculations and were not discarded.

74 squads? I will have to lookup what his combat stats were for these units as compared to a regular rifle squad to get a better feel for how their absence would be felt. But, at the least, they would have a defensive presence and be there to potentially absorb losses.

I honestly find his published work more credible and worthy of historical reference.

The reason why this is so important for the Germans in this simulation is that the German TOE plays a much more significant factor for the overall military power because they cannot create units out of their butt like their Soviet counterparts.

So, if there are any inaccuracies of Soviet TOEs presents, no big deal because Soviets create more units latter to absorb these unaccounted for elements... Whereas the Germans do not have that luxury.

As a result, the German TOEs stand as a far more limiting factor.



_____________________________

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Post #: 10
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 1:46:02 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Was just looking at this KSTN from Nov 1941 and it does show that the Regimental Recon Platoon could be equipped as a combat motorcycle unit. Having looked at the Gliederungs and KSTNs of multiple infantry divisions throughout the war, the regimental recon platoon could be either a mounted cavalry platoon, a bicycle mounted recon platoon or possibly a motorcycle recon platoon. The reality is that these platoons were equipped with whatever and there was no standardization in how they were equipped. The Germans were very loose about they actually filled their authorizations. Currently, the Infantry Regimental Recon Platoons are represented at the start of Barbarossa by either a cavalry or bicycle mounted recon platoon. I will have to see if I can find any more information on how prevalent these platoons were equipped with motorcycles. I don't think they were very common.

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1291nov41.htm

< Message edited by Great_Ajax -- 4/22/2021 1:49:16 PM >


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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 2:06:30 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Disregard. This KSTN was for the Motorized Infantry Regiments which were authorized a motorcycle recon platoon and they are in the OB.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Was just looking at this KSTN from Nov 1941 and it does show that the Regimental Recon Platoon could be equipped as a combat motorcycle unit. Having looked at the Gliederungs and KSTNs of multiple infantry divisions throughout the war, the regimental recon platoon could be either a mounted cavalry platoon, a bicycle mounted recon platoon or possibly a motorcycle recon platoon. The reality is that these platoons were equipped with whatever and there was no standardization in how they were equipped. The Germans were very loose about they actually filled their authorizations. Currently, the Infantry Regimental Recon Platoons are represented at the start of Barbarossa by either a cavalry or bicycle mounted recon platoon. I will have to see if I can find any more information on how prevalent these platoons were equipped with motorcycles. I don't think they were very common.

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1291nov41.htm



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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 2:31:04 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Okay. I see that but just having 20 assigned motorcycles does not mean that the infantry regiment organized them as fighting squads. Those motorcycles could be used in just a courier capacity which is my assumption since each Infantry Regiment had an assigned Reconnaissance Platoon which was typically either a cavalry or bicycle infantry platoon (ie not a motorcycle combat unit). Now, I could be wrong and if you have the KSTNs (or other references) that show these were organized as some kind of reconnaissance or combat troop, then I would definitely take a look at that.




Agree its not easy to see what is a combat command and what is a courier role.
Found this on the role MC in the Recon Bttn.


https://www.feldgrau.com/ww2-german-offensive-attack-tactics/

The reconnaissance battalion commander normally sends out patrols that advance by bounds. Their distance in front of the battalion depends on the situation, the terrain, and the range of the signal equipment, but as a rule, they are not more than an hour’s traveling distance (about 25 miles) ahead of the battalion. The battalion serves as the reserve for the patrols and as an advance message center (Meldekopf), collecting the messages and relaying them to the rear. Armored reconnaissance cars, armored half-tracks, or motorcycles compose the motorized reconnaissance patrols, whose exact composition depends on their mission and on the situation. Motorcycles are used to fill in gaps and intervals, thereby thickening the reconnaissance net.

German Army
1937 Motorcycle Rifle Company
KRADSCHÜTZENKOMPANIE
KStN 1111 dated 01.10.1937
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/39_organ_army/kstn_1111.htm

Ditto 1938
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/39_organ_army/kstn_1111a.htm

German Army
Organization
Motorcycle Reconnaissance Company
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/41_organ_army/Aukl/Kp_Krad-1112.html

German Army
Motorcycle Battalion 1939
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/39_organ_army/Aufkl/Abt_Krad.html


< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/22/2021 2:53:33 PM >


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Post #: 13
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 2:48:40 PM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

Interesting that these elements are included in Nigel Askey's total combat strength calculations and were not discarded.

74 squads? I will have to lookup what his combat stats were for these units as compared to a regular rifle squad to get a better feel for how their absence would be felt. But, at the least, they would have a defensive presence and be there to potentially absorb losses.

I honestly find his published work more credible and worthy of historical reference.



Unless a Kradschützen platoon/company shows up specifically as such in a KSTN the various motorcycles would not have been used as concentrated fighting squads. There is no reason to do so, as their intended function of courier/traffic management would be much more valuable than moving a few guys around on the battlefield.

If you are just counting rifles that is something different, but that is like counting the members of a battalion staff or the baking company as infantry. Happened often by necessity but not their intended function if it could be avoided.

Some (only found one so far) Kradschützen battalions were briefly part of Infantry divisions in the mid 30's before they started getting assigned to the newly forming Motorized Infantry and Panzer Divisions, but most seem to have been formed in 1938-1940 and were never part of an Infantry formation.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 4/22/2021 3:00:36 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 3:03:02 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Right on point.

What I typically see for combat organization of motorcycle units:

Infantry Regimental Recon Platoon - Mounted Cavalry or Bicycle Infantry Platoon.

Motorized Infantry and Panzer Divisions - Regimental Motorcycle Recon Platoon and a divisional motorcycle battalion or a motorized recon battalion that has a number of motorcycle companies.

Infantry Divisions did not typically have any motorcycle combat units.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

Interesting that these elements are included in Nigel Askey's total combat strength calculations and were not discarded.

74 squads? I will have to lookup what his combat stats were for these units as compared to a regular rifle squad to get a better feel for how their absence would be felt. But, at the least, they would have a defensive presence and be there to potentially absorb losses.

I honestly find his published work more credible and worthy of historical reference.



Unless a Kradschützen platoon/company shows up specifically as such in a KSTN the various motorcycles would not have been used as concentrated fighting squads. There is no reason to do so, as their intended function of courier/traffic management would be much more valuable than moving a few guys around on the battlefield.

If you are just counting rifles that is something different, but that is like counting the members of a battalion staff or the baking company as infantry. Happened often by necessity but not their intended function if it could be avoided.

The Kradschützen battalions were part of Infantry divisions in the mid 30's before they started getting assigned to the newly forming Motorized Infantry and Panzer Divisions.



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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 3:58:16 PM   
Bamilus


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Getting flashbacks to the Tik video where he completely bodies and destroys Nigel Askey

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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 4:12:58 PM   
MakeeLearn


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REMEMBER LAKE PEIPUS!




Attachment (1)

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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 4:14:51 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Okay. I got a chuckle out of that.

Trey

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Post #: 18
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/22/2021 4:15:41 PM   
MakeeLearn


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I bet Soviet partisans smiled when they heard the sound of a motorcycle.

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RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/23/2021 12:34:54 AM   
DorianGray

 

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FYI - at the opening of Barbarossa, the game lists 1,394 Motorcycle Squads deployed in German units across the Eastern Front.

However, according to Operation Barbarossa [long name] book, Table Total Ger Deployed D-1, pg 74, there were actually 21,046 Motorcycle Squads deployed.

(note - I would copy the table but afraid I would violate some copyright or something....)

OMG!

Noway short changing the German TOEs some 20k squads is trivial or not bound to have an impact.

at even 8-10 men per squad, (lets say 9), that is about 180,000 men.... or about 10 full strength divisions!

The Germans hardly build crap as far as new units through the end of '41. see https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Ger-mob-June-Dec-41.pdf

So missing out on the Motorcycle Squads at the onset is a big deal.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 20
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/23/2021 2:12:07 AM   
Great_Ajax


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I own the entire Askey set and use it heavily. The Germans are not short changed in manpower. The manpower in those non-combat motorcycle support units is accounted for with support squads in all of the OBs. Turning courier messagers and traffic control motorcycle sections into combat units is not the design intent or we would also have to convert the bakery company into light Rifle squads using that same logic. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

FYI - at the opening of Barbarossa, the game lists 1,394 Motorcycle Squads deployed in German units across the Eastern Front.

However, according to Operation Barbarossa [long name] book, Table Total Ger Deployed D-1, pg 74, there were actually 21,046 Motorcycle Squads deployed.

(note - I would copy the table but afraid I would violate some copyright or something....)

OMG!

Noway short changing the German TOEs some 20k squads is trivial or not bound to have an impact.

at even 8-10 men per squad, (lets say 9), that is about 180,000 men.... or about 10 full strength divisions!

The Germans hardly build crap as far as new units through the end of '41. see https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Ger-mob-June-Dec-41.pdf

So missing out on the Motorcycle Squads at the onset is a big deal.



< Message edited by Great_Ajax -- 4/23/2021 7:45:31 AM >


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Post #: 21
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/23/2021 3:35:56 AM   
56ajax


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And I would like to confirm that the data setup by Great_Ajax (no relation) is accurate as cited by Askey to +/- 10 men ie 1 support squad. I should know as I checked hundreds of entries and the errors i found were minor.

Have you ever held an Askey Vol in 1 hand and checked unit entry via the editor? The items are not in the same order. Talk about cross eyed.

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Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

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Post #: 22
RE: German 41 1st Wave TOE missing elements - 4/23/2021 7:53:49 AM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

FYI - at the opening of Barbarossa, the game lists 1,394 Motorcycle Squads deployed in German units across the Eastern Front.

However, according to Operation Barbarossa [long name] book, Table Total Ger Deployed D-1, pg 74, there were actually 21,046 Motorcycle Squads deployed.

(note - I would copy the table but afraid I would violate some copyright or something....)

OMG!

Noway short changing the German TOEs some 20k squads is trivial or not bound to have an impact.

at even 8-10 men per squad, (lets say 9), that is about 180,000 men.... or about 10 full strength divisions!

The Germans hardly build crap as far as new units through the end of '41. see https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Ger-mob-June-Dec-41.pdf

So missing out on the Motorcycle Squads at the onset is a big deal.


Its not so much what you have, its how you use it.https://fas.org/irp/doddir/navy/german.pdf



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