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Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 11:18:43 AM   
tm1


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I have read the manual on the winter weather rules but haves some queries.

Now the author of the manual states there is some debate and or argument whether the Germans were prepared for the First Winter
I wont argue, they got there nose bloodied pretty bad.

In the manual it states how winter rules are modified for the 43 / 44 winter period as it was mild however its my understanding form various pieces of information and some older games based on the Russian campaign that the winter of 42 / 43 was mild also and the Germans were winter prepared, so the question is why to the Axis cop it in 42 /43.


Another thing I bring up is from the WITE1 game German Mountain DIVS were broken down to regiments and placed on regular DIVS to strengthen them as the MTN DIVS were given some protection with regards to first winter rules and winter rules in general.

I cant see anything yet in the manual suggesting this is the case for WITE2, now I know there is nowhere enough MTN DIVS to cover the entire front line but some is better than none.

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 11:39:22 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tm1

I have read the manual on the winter weather rules but haves some queries.

Now the author of the manual states there is some debate and or argument whether the Germans were prepared for the First Winter
I wont argue, they got there nose bloodied pretty bad.

In the manual it states how winter rules are modified for the 43 / 44 winter period as it was mild however its my understanding form various pieces of information and some older games based on the Russian campaign that the winter of 42 / 43 was mild also and the Germans were winter prepared, so the question is why to the Axis cop it in 42 /43.


Another thing I bring up is from the WITE1 game German Mountain DIVS were broken down to regiments and placed on regular DIVS to strengthen them as the MTN DIVS were given some protection with regards to first winter rules and winter rules in general.

I cant see anything yet in the manual suggesting this is the case for WITE2, now I know there is nowhere enough MTN DIVS to cover the entire front line but some is better than none.




well as the 'author':

43/44 is mild as we spent ages digging into the climatic data, and took account of the Korsun battles in the Ukraine. On average it was 10c higher than the usual temperatures (& that is consistent across Europe). The axis don't 'cop it' in 42/3, they play by the same rules where deep snow is a barrier to movement and resupply. The debate was whether 44/45 was mild due to the regular Soviet reports of open water crossings - in the end the view was this was more related to the geography of the fighting not a climatic variance.

the living manual picks up a rule we missed re ski units - 23.1.1

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 11:44:26 AM   
Hanny


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First winter rules end in March 42, around the same time large scale effects of frostbite etc drop, http://dracobooks.com/Effects-of-Climate-on-Combat-in-European-Russia.html

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 12:52:21 PM   
tm1


Posts: 87
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: tm1

I have read the manual on the winter weather rules but haves some queries.

Now the author of the manual states there is some debate and or argument whether the Germans were prepared for the First Winter
I wont argue, they got there nose bloodied pretty bad.

In the manual it states how winter rules are modified for the 43 / 44 winter period as it was mild however its my understanding form various pieces of information and some older games based on the Russian campaign that the winter of 42 / 43 was mild also and the Germans were winter prepared, so the question is why to the Axis cop it in 42 /43.


Another thing I bring up is from the WITE1 game German Mountain DIVS were broken down to regiments and placed on regular DIVS to strengthen them as the MTN DIVS were given some protection with regards to first winter rules and winter rules in general.

I cant see anything yet in the manual suggesting this is the case for WITE2, now I know there is nowhere enough MTN DIVS to cover the entire front line but some is better than none.




well as the 'author':

43/44 is mild as we spent ages digging into the climatic data, and took account of the Korsun battles in the Ukraine. On average it was 10c higher than the usual temperatures (& that is consistent across Europe). The axis don't 'cop it' in 42/3, they play by the same rules where deep snow is a barrier to movement and resupply. The debate was whether 44/45 was mild due to the regular Soviet reports of open water crossings - in the end the view was this was more related to the geography of the fighting not a climatic variance.

the living manual picks up a rule we missed re ski units - 23.1.1


Loki100 I was unaware you were the author and I meant know disrespect , I am using the downloaded PDF version of the manual and zipping back and forth from game to manual which is not easy i cant tell you when your playing the game and reading on the run.
I am just skirting through info I need for the there and then, I will be a lot happier and it will be a lot easier for me when I get my Hard copy to read.

Again "cop it " is just figure of speech, while on the 42/43 winter I don't doubt your research and understand the view of movement and supply but I gather designers including yourself obviously felt that despite a better German unit preparedness ( winter clothing etc ) it was not enough for some leniency.


Just one last thing on the Winter Rules, for a long time I was under the belief the Germans had totally dropped the ball preparing for the 41 /42 winter however have read in a number of articles and again this going back some years to.

That German High command had issued instructions for the Army to be winterised however ( and I know there was still nowhere enough to go round ) what winter weather equipment ( uniforms etc ) in a great many cases never made it to front line units as it ended up being requisitioned to the very rear area units that were suppose send it to forward units.

I mean its not going to change anything for the game and I tried finding the articles I have in books just quickly but know luck I also remember it being mentioned on the old WITE 1 forum one day.

Did your research for the game ever unearth this info, as its always had me wondering " what if " some of the Winter gear got to the front lines.

cheers

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 1:28:35 PM   
loki100


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there are 2 sides to the winter controversy which really doesn't help.

on the axis side, there is the view you advanced that potentially they were prepared but the gap was in delivery to the front as scarce stuff was claimed at the depot level. Against that, was the whole decision framing of Barbarossa that the Red Army had to collapse before October leading to a repeat of the 1917 'railway war' style of advance (where a German unit grabbed a train and advanced to the next rail station).

There certainly is no evidence for the claim that they were surprised by a Russian winter. Many of their mid/senior officers had fought in Russia in WW1 and then took part in the various Soviet-Weimar military exercises (as well, of course, had studied military history as part of their core training)

on the Soviet side there is a complex debate as to whether the winter was actually that harsh - the climatic records are not exactly clear on this. For many years this has become entwined with the differing treatment of Stalin's leadership. So say up to 56 it wasn't officially stressed as harsh (though German under-preparation was), as the victory was down to Stalin's genius. The late Kruschev era saw a degree of emphasis on the weather and this debate shifted ground up the end of the USSR (& subsequently).

I think the game comes down to the harsh reality that the German front line formations were over-extended and under-supplied. It sidesteps why, but clearly a more conservative November can pay off in terms of offsetting some of this. That is why I like the VP system, a reward for a German player who has already hit the HWM score for Jan 42 is that they can be cautious and attack just to do damage, one chasing to avoid defeat is going to have to really commit.

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 2:30:22 PM   
Hanny


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Germany planned for a mild winter in 41, which was in part why it suffered over 5 times the SU frostbite casses in its first winter winter period, and that was SU worst year for frostbite, almost no equipment, over coats,( 3 grades warmth of parkas introduced in 42 to replace the greatcoat,jack boots with iron soles replaced by ankle boots and gaiters in 42, was designed for the temp that the army found itself operating in, AH forbade any pre war planning for a winter campaign, refused in June and july to adopt any plans for it either, and had to appeal for warm clothing from the civilian population when it was to late to manufacture it in time.

https://www.tcc.fl.edu/media/divisions/library/citation-guide/turabianx2fchicago/Turabian-Sample-2012-Endnotes_ADA.pdf
The Treachery of the Climate: How German Meteorological Errors and the Rasputitsa Helped Defeat Hitler‘s Army at Moscow, by David W. Rolf

"In their pre-invasion planning, the German high command placed great stock in the meteorological predictions of one of Germany‘s most successful pre-war weather forecasters, Franz Bauer, who predicted a mild or normal 1941-42 winter in Eastern Europe. Pre-war Germany possessed little information on Russia‘s climate, so Bauer based his long-range ―scientific forecast on a curious bit of deductive reasoning. Since the preceding three winters had been unusually cold, and there had never been four consecutive cold winters in the 150 years such records had been kept, Bauer predicted the 1941-42 winter would be mild. As sometimes happens with such long-range forecasts, he erred, and the resulting winter was one of the earliest and severest to date".

AGC was worse effected than AGN and S, as AH directed POL/munitions trains to the front, instead of winter equipment trains that sat waiting.

Heer monthly sickness numbers.
June 41 - 54,000
July 41 - 17,000
August 41 - 30,258
September 41 - 56,800
October 41 - 65,809
November 41 - 73,092
December 41 - 90,210
January 42 - 127,718
February 42 - 85,086
March 42 - 62,858
April 42 - 48,159
May 42 - 59,530
June 42 - 40,750
July 42 - 60,800
August 42 - 98,700
September 42 - 54,470
October 42 - 61,950
November 42 - 82,000

You can make a good case that 42 was not much better than 41.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/19/2021 2:50:29 PM >


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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 4:07:45 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100



on the Soviet side there is a complex debate as to whether the winter was actually that harsh - the climatic records are not exactly clear on this.


Except that they are,
https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/bams/70/3/1520-0477_1989_070_0271_tswiet_2_0_co_2.xml#:~:text=The%20winter%20of%201941%E2%80%9342,during%20January%20and%20February%201942.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/19/2021 4:08:40 PM >


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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 4:27:24 PM   
Laits


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Concerning the first winter and attrition rules, I read in the manual that "Units in protected hexes suffer less damage (protected in this sense is one of: a fort level 2 or more, city, urban, heavy urban hexes)".

Does that mean that town hexes no longer offer protection during winter (contrary to WITE 1)?

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 5:10:01 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Laits

Concerning the first winter and attrition rules, I read in the manual that "Units in protected hexes suffer less damage (protected in this sense is one of: a fort level 2 or more, city, urban, heavy urban hexes)".

Does that mean that town hexes no longer offer protection during winter (contrary to WITE 1)?


There are no town hexes, (unlike dense and double dense urban hexes) there is a town feature in a hex, and i read that rule as it not providing not either combat bonus or cold weather advantage, you could fortify the town to get it though i assume.


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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 5:51:06 PM   
Laits


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I know that town a feature and not an hex per se (I should have been more precise in my post).
My point is that it's likely to be a major difference between WITE 1 and WITE 2 for you have much less opportunity to protect your key assets.
But perhaps this rule still exists but remain undocumented (like the one added with the latest patch).


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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 6:06:37 PM   
Joel Billings


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Towns do not protect in WitE2.

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 6:32:56 PM   
MechFO

 

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For tanks protected hexes don't seem to make much difference, in contrast to infantry where you see a noticable benefit. Even sitting in a protected hex they will lose most of their tank inventory over winter. I recommend to put their TOE down to 50% and just let the bleed out happen. This way you save them getting replacements that then get damaged and they will use less transport capacity which makes redeploying them in early 42 much easier. If you can spare the command capacity I would even consider putting them on static.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 4/19/2021 6:33:21 PM >

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/19/2021 7:45:41 PM   
Laits


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Ok. Thanks for the information and the tips!
So many things to learn and unlearn! 🙂

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RE: Winter Warfare Rules - 4/20/2021 9:00:25 AM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Laits

I know that town a feature and not an hex per se (I should have been more precise in my post).
My point is that it's likely to be a major difference between WITE 1 and WITE 2 for you have much less opportunity to protect your key assets.
But perhaps this rule still exists but remain undocumented (like the one added with the latest patch).



mostly from the manual, and what i understand it to mean.

Named Locations: Some hexes on the map contain named locations. These are mostly towns and cities but also include hexes with an airbase or a depot. Urban locations are divided between Towns, Cities, Urban and Heavy Urban depending on the density of buildings. Towns etc. are also rated according to their population and 1 population point represents 50,000 people (note this includes the population in the surrounding countryside).

7.2.4. CITY AND URBAN HEXES Town, city and urban hexes are terrain features or types that are population centres as well as locations for factories, ports and railyards. Each population point is equivalent to 50,000 people (as in 1941). The density of the built up area in the hex is represented by the designations of Heavy Urban, Urban, City or Town. Note that the population reflects both those in the built-up section (i.e. the named location) and in the surrounding countryside.

So a town in a hex of the lowest value of 1 is 50,000 person representing both rural and urban population, Russian rural family size was a little larger than urban in 41, 3 in urban 4 in rural, so with have c14,000 family units in a 100 sq miles, 500 person per sq mile in c145 dwellings, giving no cold weather protection or terrain advantage. To turn it into a fortified location it must have a min pop of 2, so double the above, then it contributes to creation of a fortification, see 20.2.3. by a un depleted unit in the hex. A 15k Divison could take all those dwellings for its winter use, but the game does not allow that, it requires a greater pop density to do so.

So your looking for towns with a min pop of 2 to turn into winter quarters, otoh any unit can create forts in the hex, and 20.1 tells us in 2/3 weeks you can get to fort level 2, but also see this 20.3. FoRtIFICAtIoN LIMItS, DECAY AND DEStRUCtIoN

Fortification Levels 2 or 3: Must either be 1) adjacent to an enemy hex, or 2) a City/Urban/Heavy Urban terrain hex, or 3) contain a port (of any size), or 4) contain a fortified zone unit in the hex. Once the level 3 is reached, the condition does not have to continue to be met to keep the level 3 fortification.

So yes its going to be harder to use towns as winter quarters as compared to wite1 as Towns can become fortified to level 2 only in certain circumstances while ground units can get to fort level 2 without a town.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/20/2021 9:08:23 AM >


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