Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Axis Struggles

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Axis Struggles Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Axis Struggles - 4/12/2021 2:50:48 PM   
Scarz


Posts: 195
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Dallas Texas
Status: offline
I have played a couple games now as Axis v. AI and looking for some guidance.

In the first two games the advance started really bogging down around turn 7-9 (AGN around Pscov; AGC at Smolensk; and AGS short of Dnepr). My third try I have gotten to the mud turns around T20, with AGN just short Leningrad, AGC just outside Vyazma, and AGS capturing Kiev and across the Dnepr north of Cherkassy.

I am not sure if this is caused by failing to isolate enough Soviet divisions, my supply depot management, or a combo of both.

It seemed like I made reasonable pockets, averaging around 10-15+ divisions a turn, with a couple big turns (32 div turn 9 and 21 on turn 10). Of course these big pockets take several turns to reduce which is causing further delays.

Any thoughts on how many divisions need to be isolated per turn to get reasonably historic results?

I have been manually placing depots and letting AI handle air, will the AI do a better job with depots?

Thanks.






Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/12/2021 3:03:51 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 927
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
This game is a real joy and I can tell you from own experiences and others that this isn't abnormal. It seems hard to replicate historical Axis success, even on normal difficulty (unless you're experienced with the game). Here's some threads that might help:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4996029 Winning and losing metrics

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4997053 T1 and T2 Axis Strategy

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5000622 Axis winter advice

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4988477 Axis players guide

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4989226 Carlkays axis AAR vs 110 morale AI. Make sure to download his saves for analysis

I can tell you the AI will not better with depot. Do what I've been doing: just keep every new depot on 4. Don't touch anything else until you get closer to winter. I get enough supply every turn until late November using this method. Carlkay documents it in his AAR (and he uploads save games so you can see, as well. It's fifth link above. He also has some really good detail posts in pages 9 through 11).

When I get the time I will consolidate all these tips and make a PDF like I did for War in the West: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3778468



< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/12/2021 3:06:56 PM >


_____________________________

Paradox Interactive Forum Refugee

(in reply to Scarz)
Post #: 2
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/12/2021 3:50:21 PM   
Thogode


Posts: 1
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: North Germany
Status: offline
Thank you very much for the useful links.
As I am not an experienced player I read most advice given and some AAR. But I am never able to recreate the success described by you or others.
My problem so far is not the supply system but constantly running out of steam: CPP are down and fatigue gets very high. Therefore, the units become unfit for any further fighting. The Panzer divisions loose too many tanks, especially around Smolensk.
I guess I have to wait for your guide before continuing. Or I am simply to dull for this masterpiece.


(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 3
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/12/2021 3:56:57 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 927
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thogode

Thank you very much for the useful links.
As I am not an experienced player I read most advice given and some AAR. But I am never able to recreate the success described by you or others.
My problem so far is not the supply system but constantly running out of steam: CPP are down and fatigue gets very high. Therefore, the units become unfit for any further fighting. The Panzer divisions loose too many tanks, especially around Smolensk.
I guess I have to wait for your guide before continuing. Or I am simply to dull for this masterpiece.




Yep, I think there's a lot to learn from when to rest divisions and when to push on. That will probably come with experience. I think in my next game the big thing to focus on AI is I'm going to try do to more unit level recon (vs interdiction). The AI leaves weak holes in all of its front lines, and if you can identify those holes for breakthroughs then that's super important. I've never done unit level recon, before, but I think finding those weak spots is critical to make more pockets and be able to move faster.

There's also a balance between trying to pocket everything and also just moving enough to push AI back. The AI, even on normal 100 morale, will recognize when you're trying to form a pocket and will fall back. For purposes of speed to reach VP locations, it's very good to get them to move back their entire line, but you also have to make sure you destroy enough of them.

One last tip I've really focused on: look at terrain for movement. You can really increase the distance your panzers and motorized divisions take if you move over clear terrain. And the impact of taking over enemy hexes (which reduces MP costs by converting into pending) then makes the next unit move even further. I've gotten much deeper advances on T1 using this knowledge than I did in the past.

All I can say is: it's very good that this game is a challenge vs the AI (for me and many others, anyways) with seemingly lots of replayability.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/12/2021 4:03:30 PM >


_____________________________

Paradox Interactive Forum Refugee

(in reply to Thogode)
Post #: 4
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 12:57:32 AM   
Scarz


Posts: 195
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Dallas Texas
Status: offline
Thanks Bamilus, the links were great.

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 5
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 2:08:06 AM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: online
I'm not the best axis player, but this might help:

1) Super depots are essential. At some point you'll need to pause a FBD and major HQ on a decent railyard. You'll notice in a week or two you can build up 30,000 tons of supply. Combined with a short rest, that will let you re-gas, re-arm, and most importantly bring some replacements in to cover your losses and wear and tear. While it's always painful to leave track unconverted, sometimes one week of track is not as valuable as a week where you have real supply. That pile of supplies can often fuel another week or two after the top off as well. You don't need to do this immediately, but if you're slwoing down it's a good idea. You might consider "bounding" your FBDs either with one moving while the other depots in your rich army group, or by using a build up to cover the movement to the next super depot in your 1x FBD AGs.

2) Start rotating units in for rest early. Yeah, you're going to drive the heer hard, and there's no avoiding that, but units recover from being 80% spent way faster than form being taken to the limit.

3) Consider an operational pause for a week once resistance firms up. There's an almost geometric return on MPs over 30, because getting "through" a line is a 10-20 MP expenditure...but then everything after that is hexes on the cheap, meaning the difference between a paltry gain and a massive pocket is the difference between 30 MP and 39.

4) Killing. Assuming even steven resources, you want to put down at least 3.7M russians. How you do that is up to you, but if you go the pocket route (and I do endorse it as generally easier on the hee rin the long run) you just need ot keep moving forward while cleaning pockets. If you stop forward movement to clean, there will just be a new line in fornt of you when you get moving again.


(in reply to Scarz)
Post #: 6
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 3:39:24 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3199
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline
If you want a "historical" result, put the AI at 90. After all Stalin was probably the Wehrmacht's biggest ally in 1941.

(in reply to GloriousRuse)
Post #: 7
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 12:44:53 PM   
Scarz


Posts: 195
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Dallas Texas
Status: offline
Thanks for the tips, GloriousRose.

However, I am unclear on the "Super Depos." Is that something I am creating (clicking) or just happens when the FBD and HQ stop together?


(in reply to GloriousRuse)
Post #: 8
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 12:49:44 PM   
loki100


Posts: 9268
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scarz

Thanks for the tips, GloriousRose.

However, I am unclear on the "Super Depos." Is that something I am creating (clicking) or just happens when the FBD and HQ stop together?




its the combination.

So a FBD that doesn't move (at all) distorts the rail network so more supply are sent to the depot. The HQ then increases the capacity of that depot to process freight, the combination is ideal as it can really pull freight into a given location

_____________________________


(in reply to Scarz)
Post #: 9
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 1:39:41 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 927
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

If you want a "historical" result, put the AI at 90. After all Stalin was probably the Wehrmacht's biggest ally in 1941.


Lol, this is actually true. I get better each game but I also keep moving morale down by 5 each game until I find a good balance. Right now at 100/100 (started at 110).

I'm actually really glad this game's AI is a complete joke. I'm sure for experienced players it is, but I can already tell the AI is way more competent than previous versions of Grigsby games and vs other strategic/operational level games it's quite good.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/13/2021 1:40:29 PM >


_____________________________

Paradox Interactive Forum Refugee

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 10
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 3:05:10 PM   
malyhin1517


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scarz

Thanks for the tips, GloriousRose.

However, I am unclear on the "Super Depos." Is that something I am creating (clicking) or just happens when the FBD and HQ stop together?




its the combination.

So a FBD that doesn't move (at all) distorts the rail network so more supply are sent to the depot. The HQ then increases the capacity of that depot to process freight, the combination is ideal as it can really pull freight into a given location

In my opinion, this is cheating, but this is the decision of the developers! :)

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 11
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 3:41:31 PM   
loki100


Posts: 9268
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517
...
In my opinion, this is cheating, but this is the decision of the developers! :)


actually think that is rather over the top - its a deliberate design feature to allow the logistics system to function as desired.

Its a trade off, esp in 1941, in having to keep your FBD static.

its set out in considerable detail in the manual so that every player is aware of how it works

_____________________________


(in reply to malyhin1517)
Post #: 12
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 3:54:45 PM   
First_Contact_Gamer


Posts: 50
Joined: 4/12/2021
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517
...
In my opinion, this is cheating, but this is the decision of the developers! :)


actually think that is rather over the top - its a deliberate design feature to allow the logistics system to function as desired.

Its a trade off, esp in 1941, in having to keep your FBD static.

its set out in considerable detail in the manual so that every player is aware of how it works


I kind of understand what Malyhin is going after with his comment and I think, if Malyhin is indeed using a translator a different way to say it would be it feels a bit like "gaming the system". I don't see it as cheating, and it is in the manual, but sometimes some game mechanics just feel a little, well, too much like a game when you're immersing yourself so deeply into the world. Its a difficult balance with any game and something as a whole I think WITE2 does an excellent job with.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 13
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 7:22:42 PM   
malyhin1517


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: First_Contact_Gamer
I kind of understand what Malyhin is going after with his comment and I think, if Malyhin is indeed using a translator a different way to say it would be it feels a bit like "gaming the system". I don't see it as cheating, and it is in the manual, but sometimes some game mechanics just feel a little, well, too much like a game when you're immersing yourself so deeply into the world. Its a difficult balance with any game and something as a whole I think WITE2 does an excellent job with.

The point is that super depots ignore the railway's capacity! I understand that this is in the tutorial, but I am generally unhappy with how the railway works in the game and especially how it is being repaired! I'm just a military railroad worker myself and I know perfectly well how it really works! :)

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to First_Contact_Gamer)
Post #: 14
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/13/2021 11:19:29 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 617
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517
The point is that super depots ignore the railway's capacity! I understand that this is in the tutorial, but I am generally unhappy with how the railway works in the game and especially how it is being repaired! I'm just a military railroad worker myself and I know perfectly well how it really works! :)


That's not how it works as far as I understand it. It does not generate new railyard capacity (rolling stock) or track capacity, it only prioritises and redirects existing resources in the system. What it does add is unloading capacity at the place where it is stationed but can be explained by the added labour resources.

(in reply to malyhin1517)
Post #: 15
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/14/2021 6:26:05 AM   
malyhin1517


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO


quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517
The point is that super depots ignore the railway's capacity! I understand that this is in the tutorial, but I am generally unhappy with how the railway works in the game and especially how it is being repaired! I'm just a military railroad worker myself and I know perfectly well how it really works! :)


That's not how it works as far as I understand it. It does not generate new railyard capacity (rolling stock) or track capacity, it only prioritises and redirects existing resources in the system. What it does add is unloading capacity at the place where it is stationed but can be explained by the added labour resources.

Not! The bandwidth is being ignored! During the beta test, I remember someone wrote about this! In general, the very idea of such a super warehouse seems to me absolutely fantastic in a war! Historically, this has not happened! This feature in the game clearly violates historicity.

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 16
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/14/2021 7:48:05 AM   
loki100


Posts: 9268
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

....
Not! The bandwidth is being ignored! During the beta test, I remember someone wrote about this! In general, the very idea of such a super warehouse seems to me absolutely fantastic in a war! Historically, this has not happened! This feature in the game clearly violates historicity.


it doesn't increase railway capacity one bit, if you set one up at the end of a single track rail it won't work very well.

are you really saying that armies in WW2 didn't designate a location where they built up supplies for a coming offensive, or a key hub in their logistics system that then supplied smaller depots closer to the front?

is the precise mechanism to create this unrealistic - yes of course, but it has the merit of creating a tension between rail repair and depot functionality (so its not a free choice), but the mechanism/outcome is perfectly realistic and a vast improvement on WiTE1's HQBU?

_____________________________


(in reply to malyhin1517)
Post #: 17
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/14/2021 9:38:10 AM   
Stephan61

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 3/3/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

....
Not! The bandwidth is being ignored! During the beta test, I remember someone wrote about this! In general, the very idea of such a super warehouse seems to me absolutely fantastic in a war! Historically, this has not happened! This feature in the game clearly violates historicity.


it doesn't increase railway capacity one bit, if you set one up at the end of a single track rail it won't work very well.

are you really saying that armies in WW2 didn't designate a location where they built up supplies for a coming offensive, or a key hub in their logistics system that then supplied smaller depots closer to the front?

is the precise mechanism to create this unrealistic - yes of course, but it has the merit of creating a tension between rail repair and depot functionality (so its not a free choice), but the mechanism/outcome is perfectly realistic and a vast improvement on WiTE1's HQBU?


As an Armed Forces Logistic Co-ordinator I think it replicates real life logistic co-ordination pretty well. Once you understand the mechanics of the PULL system coded within the game, it pretty simple to run.

Personally I have several SUPER Depots in strategic positions (railyards 3 +) and each turn as the front moves I disband and create new depots on priority 4 as required. So far no shortage of Freight for the front line, but then I am only in T5 on the axis and am expecting logistic problems as the game moves in the winter period.


(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 18
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/14/2021 1:53:22 PM   
malyhin1517


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephan61


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

....
Not! The bandwidth is being ignored! During the beta test, I remember someone wrote about this! In general, the very idea of such a super warehouse seems to me absolutely fantastic in a war! Historically, this has not happened! This feature in the game clearly violates historicity.


it doesn't increase railway capacity one bit, if you set one up at the end of a single track rail it won't work very well.

are you really saying that armies in WW2 didn't designate a location where they built up supplies for a coming offensive, or a key hub in their logistics system that then supplied smaller depots closer to the front?

is the precise mechanism to create this unrealistic - yes of course, but it has the merit of creating a tension between rail repair and depot functionality (so its not a free choice), but the mechanism/outcome is perfectly realistic and a vast improvement on WiTE1's HQBU?


As an Armed Forces Logistic Co-ordinator I think it replicates real life logistic co-ordination pretty well. Once you understand the mechanics of the PULL system coded within the game, it pretty simple to run.

Personally I have several SUPER Depots in strategic positions (railyards 3 +) and each turn as the front moves I disband and create new depots on priority 4 as required. So far no shortage of Freight for the front line, but then I am only in T5 on the axis and am expecting logistic problems as the game moves in the winter period.



However, I don't use super depots in my games! At the same time, the supply of the troops is excellent! The main thing is to set the supply priority correctly, because in my last game this was the reason for the poor supply!

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to Stephan61)
Post #: 19
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/15/2021 5:37:24 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 540
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
I am on my 3rd game vs the AI playing the Axis, and frankly, it is tough. I can exceed historical advance rates the first 2 turns, then slowly by turn the turn 4-6 you are maybe even with the historical advance rate, then by the fall, you start falling behind. I think the only way this game is going to be an "even" match between real people is if the Axis player is very good and experienced and the Soviet one is "ok", or even inexperienced. I have only killed 3.7 million Russians once and that was in November and I was not ready for the winter at all.
I mean....how do I say this and not piss everyone off, it is starting to feel a little too scripted.

Also, did the 1.07 beta patch do something to the combat resolution. I seem to be getting a lot more Russian units "Holding" than I was.

_____________________________

"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
"Pass the salt, please"

(in reply to malyhin1517)
Post #: 20
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/15/2021 7:20:37 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 36176
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
I'll say that the campaign has been tested many times before release and I expect as time goes on you'll find that it's possible for the Axis to exceed its historical performance even with equal player skill, just comes down to the choices each player makes. I'm assuming both players have learned how to play their side though and from what I've seen there's still a lot of climbing the learning curve going on. However, the historical challenges are all there, which tend to lead to some of the same decisions that historical commanders had to make. If that's what you're saying feels "scripted" then I'd suggest it's more like "realistic" as there is no script for the player (or the AI after Turn 1).

1.07 is no longer beta, it became an official update. As far as I know, it did not make any changes to combat resolution.



< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/15/2021 7:21:57 PM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Zemke)
Post #: 21
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/15/2021 10:43:32 PM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: online
In one of the later beta waves where I came in we witnessed a certain pattern.

At first the axis do poorly. People are learning that while their combat formations are powerful, they aren’t the invincible legions of victory that so many east front games portray them as. The Soviets aren’t playing any better, but the onus is on the axis at first to deliver the big wins so they pay more heavily for being unfamiliar with the increased realism.

Then people start learning to pay attention to the nuance in the engine - roads, logistics, rest and refit, operational pauses, taking more efficient fights rather than fighting everywhere and all the time, understanding that some terrain can’t support offensives while other corridors are high speed approaches. The Axis players typically learn faster by Darwinian default, and soon everybody is nodding that the HWMs are pretty easy to make, and that it’s a fight.

As that proficiency starts really growing, the inherent German advantages - dynamism, mobility, what boils down to a faster OODA loop for everything but the employment of reserves, big explosive potential - really start seeing the Germans impose their will on the Soviets, even between good players.

I like to think of the two sides as a bit of a spectrum of return on capability, with the Soviets having a more centered and narrow curve with tighter limits - easier to play in the beginning, harder to get every last drop of as people get better - while the Germans have a much wider distribution, easier to mess up tragically at first, but also with a very high upper limit for what an experienced player can do.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 22
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/16/2021 9:10:05 AM   
jlbhung

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 3/10/2021
Status: offline
The German ground and air forces were the first class in the World at that time. In the game, the players are assuming the role of strategic planning and command for the German military. If the AI performance is acceptable and the game is balanced, then I think it would be normal for the average players to perform poorer than the history in their first few attempts. At least for me, I don’t think I have higher IQ, wisdom, training and experience compared to the German military planners in 1941.

However, this is not to say that the average players cannot perform better than history. Players will eventually benefits from knowing the history, from the fact that the game’s AI is less competent than a human, from experience gained from playing the game several times as well as from experience learnt from fellow players.

For me, it is in fact a good news that the game is challenging when playing against AI. It is also very good that the game allows the players to change the difficulty settings in the middle of a campaign, so that players could fine-tune the settings to a level that they can manage comfortably.




(in reply to GloriousRuse)
Post #: 23
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/16/2021 11:38:20 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8096
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline
It is also easier to gain wide experience as the Axis versus the Soviets. An Axis player can get well based experience in both tactics and strategy playing against the AI. The AI does very well on defense and does a good job putting up a fight and challenge for the Axis. The Axis AI, on the other hand, can cause the same level of casualties to the Soviets as a human player, but it is not as dynamic or fluid in deep penetrations as a human. So it is much harder for a Soviet player to gain more than tactical experience playing against the AI than a human. Also the game has to go much longer to see if the Soviet's play is any good while the Axis can evaluate the first 16 turns in many cases.

(in reply to jlbhung)
Post #: 24
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/16/2021 3:33:33 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 540
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I'll say that the campaign has been tested many times before release and I expect as time goes on you'll find that it's possible for the Axis to exceed its historical performance even with equal player skill, just comes down to the choices each player makes. I'm assuming both players have learned how to play their side though and from what I've seen there's still a lot of climbing the learning curve going on. However, the historical challenges are all there, which tend to lead to some of the same decisions that historical commanders had to make. If that's what you're saying feels "scripted" then I'd suggest it's more like "realistic" as there is no script for the player (or the AI after Turn 1).

1.07 is no longer beta, it became an official update. As far as I know, it did not make any changes to combat resolution.




In reference to the above and the following posts, has the game even been tested between two players trying to do exactly what happened historically? In other words, match the same moves and attacks as happened in the war. Perhaps this is a bit much for the entire operation, but at least on one front like the drive to Leningrad. And if so, did the casualties figures match what happened, did the advance rates match what happened? Because the one and only true measure we have is history, and to make a game based on history, that bills itself as the most accurate, the "game" or "simulation" should roughly match what happened historically. Also, I would say this should be done across the board for all scenarios, do advance rates match history, casualty rates, prisoners were taken, and so on. If this has not been done, then I feel like we the public are the testers, trying to see if the programming matches. Because frankly, I feel like this is "adventure" learning" so far, even with the manual and charts as aids. This is a simple question, has the game been tested using history as the benchmark?

I find it very difficult (impossible) to execute a historical maneuver, and I will use the following example. The 3rd Panzer Group was sent north to aid Army Group North in surrounding Leningrad, after Smolensk falls on 17 July 41. To get the 39th Pz Corps in position to attack and take Novogorod by 25 August 41 rested and with some CCP is well difficult while at the same time maintaining the gains made around Smolensk. The same would apply to the 57 Pz Corps attacking towards Demyansk, which fell on 8 Sept 41. The combination of moving, resting, CCP accumulation, and last the terrible terrain in both axis of advance all combine in this game to make this (for me) an impossible move to replicate. This is why I ask the above question, has the game been tested in this way to see if the programming matches the historical results?

Last I am on my fourth game, to try and replicate this very maneuver in the game, trying to stick as close to historical moves and routes as possible.

Also, let me add, I am loving the game, just trying to learn it, get better and understand what I am missing.

< Message edited by Zemke -- 4/16/2021 3:51:59 PM >


_____________________________

"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
"Pass the salt, please"

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 25
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/16/2021 3:53:23 PM   
loki100


Posts: 9268
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
what you are asking for is pretty much impossible to be honest.

Did a lot of the testers stick pretty close to the historic German plan in 1941 - yes. Early on this produced some pretty wild outcomes as the game came together, over time we started to see relatively predictable variations around the historical outcome. Metrics in this respect mostly being front line location, army size and loss rates.

Remember the nature of beta (& even more alpha) testing - weekly or more ,exes, every now and then save breaking.

I had one HtH, we reran the first winter with a different exe to test that, we found a huge problem with level 1 depots giving railyards that meant we reran the 1942 summer offensive (I had week after week of 45-50 MP pzrs). In the end the game was abandoned in Sept 42 when the AOG functionality came into the .exe (save breaking).

We had to rely on AI-AI and then individuals pulling apart the mid-late game saves for most testing. We had a few completed vs AI games that came out reasonably historical. I actually had two complete games as the Soviets, one with a win in May 45, the other in March 45 (the AAR that has been posted). There was another in late testing that ended in late 44.

We also substantively used StB and VtB to test the mid/late game and in particular if the big set piece Soviet offensive could be modelled.

So yes, tested with a close eye on the historical record. Tested by two players emulating every historical move? No, of course not, first battle is going to set a new game on a unique track. Tested by players sticking fairly close to the historical choices - yes; tested by players constructing their own strategy - yes of course

_____________________________


(in reply to Zemke)
Post #: 26
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/16/2021 3:54:38 PM   
Karri

 

Posts: 1029
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke

In reference to the above and the following posts, has the game even been tested between two players trying to do exactly what happened historically? In other words, match the same moves and attacks as happened in the war. Perhaps this is a bit much for the entire operation, but at least on one front like the drive to Leningrad. And if so, did the casualties figures match what happened, did the advance rates match what happened? Because the one and only true measure we have is history, and to make a game based on history, that bills itself as the most accurate, the "game" or "simulation" should roughly match what happened historically. Also, I would say this should be done across the board for all scenarios, do advance rates match history, casualty rates, prisoners were taken, and so on. If this has not been done, then I feel like we the public are the testers, trying to see if the programming matches. Because frankly, I feel like this is "adventure" learning" so far, even with the manual and charts as aids. This is a simple question, has the game been tested using history as the benchmark?


The problem is that the game is never going to play historically. No Axis player would let the 6th army be destroyed, and no Soviet player would allow the massive encirclements. Thus the aim is not to re-create history as it happened, but to create results that mimick history. So things will play out so that the Axis player should be able to reach the outskirts of Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov.



(in reply to Zemke)
Post #: 27
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/16/2021 4:14:21 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 540
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
Well, it cannot be a real historical game if it cannot match what happened in history. I am not talking about what real players will or will not do. I am asking IF the game has been tested this way, and do advance rates match as well as the other factors like casualties.

< Message edited by Zemke -- 4/16/2021 4:15:13 PM >


_____________________________

"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
"Pass the salt, please"

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 28
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/16/2021 4:18:46 PM   
loki100


Posts: 9268
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke

Well, it cannot be a real historical game if it cannot match what happened in history. I am not talking about what real players will or will not do. I am asking IF the game has been tested this way, and do advance rates match as well as the other factors like casualties.


for the metrics we used - yes its a good match, above I told you the ones we mostly relied on.

Has anyone sat with a divisional history and modelled every move exactly as it happened - not as far as I am aware.

But I don't think that is a valid criticism of the game?

_____________________________


(in reply to Zemke)
Post #: 29
RE: Axis Struggles - 4/16/2021 4:32:54 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 30717
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
We had some testers decide that going for Leningrad wasn't worth it. Only to have the next AAR have the German player take Leningrad. There is no doubt that the game system makes advancing in clear terrain much easier than advancing in bad terrain. It's very easy to be tempted into heading south because of this. But so much of the game, as in the war, is about doing the unexpected and making your main drive where the enemy isn't strong and doesn't expect it (see Battle of the Bulge for a West Front example of both surprise allowing for big advances, and importance of terrain in countering them). I'm sure we will learn a lot about the game as we watch AARs and get to see more games. So far we feel good about the ability of players to make a difference, but within historical constraints, but we'll keep an eye on this and are open to adjusting in the future.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Axis Struggles Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.379