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[Logged] ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/11/2021 1:39:35 PM   
DWReese

 

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I am using v20, with db 488.

This is a new issue dealing with the SM-3 and a DF-21 attack.

I have spread out TPY-2 radar units everywhere, and I have placed the USS LORENZEN halfway in between the shooters and the target (a TICO CG). Everything works perfect, until......

The SM-3 Blk IIA has a range of 1350 nm. It successfully launches almost immediately, as it should. The SM-3 missiles fly toward the DF-21s, but never hit them. The message says that they "OVERSHOOT" them, but if you play it out they actually UNDERSHOOT them. The SM-3 missiles fly UNDER the DF-21s by about 30 km, which is almost 100,000 feet. No wonder why they never hit them.

I have tried this over 30 times and the results are always exactly the same.

So, while everything else about this seems to work, the intercept calculation does not. A tweak may be in needed.

Doug



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< Message edited by Rory Noonan -- 4/12/2021 2:08:42 PM >
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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/11/2021 7:36:35 PM   
DWReese

 

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Here's another example.

I'm using v20 and db 488.

I playing the same scenario and situation that I described in the other thread whereby the SM-3 IB would not fire, although it tracked the incoming DF-21s 700+ miles before they fell below the deck and could not be fired at.

In my first message, the long-range version of the SM-3 (the IIA) fired and OVERSHOT its target.

In this example, using a different scenario and the USS LORENZEN to spot, the DF-21s were spotted, tracked, and easily destroyed by the SM-3 IIA exactly how it is supposed to work.

So, on one occasion (repeatedly) it overshoots its target, and in this one it repeatedly destroys its target.

Doug

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/12/2021 10:05:39 AM   
guanotwozero

 

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I tried running your save a few times, and I found the results varied quite a bit. On some occasions they knocked out all the vampires but more commonly they all missed. Some examples of a subset being intercepted.

One of the interesting factors was that the SM-3s were often a little off-axis to the vampires' trajectory - pic enclosed.

I noticed that the intercept area was after the high point (apogee) of the SM-3s, which seemed to struggle to descend as rapidly as needed. So I then manually launched another salvo after 2 minutes, at 380nm range. These were still in their ascent phase at point of interception and there seemed to be a higher rate of kills, though that's just from a small sample of attempts.

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< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 4/12/2021 10:06:57 AM >

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/12/2021 10:48:36 AM   
DWReese

 

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Yes, it's puzzling, to say the least.

Usually, it doesn't work right. Yet, you can change things up just slightly (a different trajectory) and it works so well that you think that it's fixed.

Then, you can play the next scenario and every ship in your group gets killed without any incoming missiles being shot down at all. It's totally inconsistent.

The "fix" just may be a small tweak, or so, but who knows?

Doug

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/12/2021 1:34:12 PM   
WSBot

 

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0014498

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/14/2021 12:21:34 PM   
DWReese

 

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......................Revised message below



< Message edited by DWReese -- 4/15/2021 7:13:19 PM >

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 4:14:07 PM   
DWReese

 

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Okay, this is puzzling.

Here is a very simple situation and it won't take more than a minute or two for you to look at.

The SAG has fired some SM-3 IIA missiles (already in the air) at some incoming DF-21s. thanks to lots of radar units, the missiles were detected far away. The intercept is going to occur about 600 miles away from the SAG. The incoming missiles will be almost at 300 km above earth when they are intercepted.

The SM-3s missiles climb and climb and will intercept them something like 4 times in a row with no problem. Then, on maybe the fifth time, they will not reach the altitude, and every missile will "UNDERSHOOT" (it will say "OVERSHOOT") their targets and everyone will miss. Start the battle again, and the next time they will all hit. Try it a few more times and they will likely all hit, until you get another result where they all UNDERSHOOT the targets again.

This is the SAME scenario, and the same missiles, and the same calculations. I can't see a reason for this.

The biggest issue is there is no time for any further shooting, and a miss is as good as a death sentence. So, it is a concern.

Please, to everyone, try it out five times or so. See if you have the same results. It really won't take but about five or six minutes of your time.

Doug


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(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 6:24:10 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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OK, I've just run this 12 times in a row, and didn't get a single miss.

Out of curiosity, what CPU are you using? I've just run this on my main PC with a fairly meaty CPU, and I'll try it later on my laptop which I've mostly been using recently. Just in case it's an issue with a thread needing enough CPU/time to work as intended.

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 6:37:13 PM   
DWReese

 

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I have a desktop, Dell Intel (R) Core (TM) i5-4440 CPU 3.10 GHz, with 12.0 RAM, and a 64-bit Operating system, using Windows 8.1

I consistently get just about 1 out of 5 where the SM-3 missiles don't ever reach the 300 km altitude, thus flying UNDER the DF-21s. On the others, it climbs high enough to eliminate the missiles each time without issue.

I did leave the program, and go back each time to have a new refreshed system when I tried it. If each time was the same starting point (already in the air), then each time nothing was ever changed. So, a previous successful flight of missiles will always yield successful flight of missiles fr the next scenario if you started the scenario and the SM-3s were already in-flight.

Doug

< Message edited by DWReese -- 4/15/2021 7:25:12 PM >

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 7:00:51 PM   
DWReese

 

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Okay,

I believe that this was properly captured, and you should plainly see on the screen that the message indicates that the SM-3s "OVERSHOT" their target, and if you play it on out, then all that should happen for all 8 SM-3 missiles. (Four have already missed.) The one that is closest at the time of the save is roughly 25 km BELOW the DF-21.

If one UNDERSHOOTS, then they will all UNDERSHOOT.

MAKE CERTAIN TO OPEN THE WEAPON LOGIC MESSAGE IN ORDER TO SEE the OVERSHOOT messages.

Now, if you restart the scenario from the point BEFORE the attack and it had worked that time, then when you restart it again then it will likely work again.

But, if you start from scratch each time, then one out of five will likely fail (OVERSHOOT/UNDERSHOOT). In other words, to get it to fail, you have to begin by actually launching the DF-21s at the Essex, and then you have a one in five chance that it will fail. If you merely repeat a scenario where that HAD been tested and was previously a success, then all of the rest will be a success as well.

You have to start fresh.

Puzzling to say the least.

Doug

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< Message edited by DWReese -- 4/15/2021 7:21:06 PM >

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 7:22:38 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
MAKE CERTAIN TO OPEN THE WEAPON LOGIC MESSAGE IN ORDER TO SEE the OVERSHOOT messages.


Yep, I can clearly see that. This is interesting that different people are getting different results, which makes me suspect it's hardware related, e.g. CPU performance. As I say, I'll try later on my laptop - not a gaming one - so maybe it'll reveal that difference.

Edit:
Oh, can you post a pre-launch save please, so I can try it from the start?

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 4/15/2021 7:25:57 PM >

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 7:28:12 PM   
DWReese

 

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Thanks again. And, remember to start each one fresh, from the beginning. Re-start the program to ensure test integrity. (But, you already know that. <lol>)

Doug


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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 7:36:52 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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Doug, where do I find the scenario? The only saves I can find are those two after launch.

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 8:01:18 PM   
thewood1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
MAKE CERTAIN TO OPEN THE WEAPON LOGIC MESSAGE IN ORDER TO SEE the OVERSHOOT messages.


Yep, I can clearly see that. This is interesting that different people are getting different results, which makes me suspect it's hardware related, e.g. CPU performance. As I say, I'll try later on my laptop - not a gaming one - so maybe it'll reveal that difference.

Edit:
Oh, can you post a pre-launch save please, so I can try it from the start?


I mentioned this in another thread that sometimes we see different results in these highspeed encounters. I have thought it had to do with how quickly all the units orders/actions can be processed. But I have nothing but anecdotal information.

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 8:09:34 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I mentioned this in another thread that sometimes we see different results in these highspeed encounters. I have thought it had to do with how quickly all the units orders/actions can be processed. But I have nothing but anecdotal information.

For those with more than one PC it's a good opportunity to see if there's a difference in outcomes.

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 8:15:45 PM   
DWReese

 

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Yes, I guess that you would need the scenario, wouldn't you?

Here is a new scenario. Hopefully, I have made all of the necessary changes to make this work as I had described.

Use DF-21 (Unit #2) and fire all 4 missiles at the Essex.

The LORENZEN should detect the incoming missiles.

The Essex group should fire 8 SM-3s at the incoming missiles.

One out of 5 times they should miss like I described. For some reason, it tends to be the first.

If not, back all the way out of the program and re-start it. Try it again, and again, using the same method.

You should eventually get one like I described.

If there is an issue, let me know. I have misplaced the other saves, so I had to reload this again to test it. LMK what happens.

Doug



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(in reply to guanotwozero)
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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 8:30:46 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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Thanks, will give it a shot later and report back.

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/15/2021 8:34:28 PM   
thewood1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I mentioned this in another thread that sometimes we see different results in these highspeed encounters. I have thought it had to do with how quickly all the units orders/actions can be processed. But I have nothing but anecdotal information.

For those with more than one PC it's a good opportunity to see if there's a difference in outcomes.


I did that on another issue and showed I was getting different results. I think it got lost in the long discussion. I'll try this one later. I also found that time accelleration made a difference in that particular issue.

_____________________________

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/16/2021 2:26:21 AM   
DWReese

 

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I have so many scenarios floating around that I am losing track of what is what.

Try this one. The first time that you run it, fire four DF-21 Unit 2 missiles at the Essex. The Essex group will return fire as I hoped that it would. But, due to calculations, the first time that you try this the SM-3 missiles will never reach the proper altitude to hit the DF-21s.

If you start the scenario again, without completely leaving the program, then the second time (and so on) the SM-3 missiles WILL intercept the DF-21s and destroy the DF-21s , and usually destroy all of them.

Doug

EDIT: And, just in case you are interested, I tried the whole engagement using the x1 time increment. I theorized that by using the x2 or x5 that that might have been the problem. The x1 increment didn't work any differently than the x3 or x5. All three ended up about 25 km below the target, and all were listed as "OVERSHOT" the target.

Doug

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< Message edited by DWReese -- 4/16/2021 2:46:03 AM >

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/18/2021 3:28:04 AM   
DWReese

 

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To the devs,

For what it is worth, I ran the same scenario on my desktop (Windows 8.1) and my laptop (Windows 10) and had the exact same results. The Essex Group detects, and fires at the incoming DF-21s with their SM-3 IIA. This is exactly what was hoped for.

In each case, NONE of the SM-3 IIA missiles could not make it up to the proper altitude to attack the DF-21 missiles in time. Instead, they all passed under the DF-21 s by about 25 km. It is only AFTER they have passed each other do the SM-3s finally make it up to an altitude where they could attack and destroy the missiles. Unfortunately, that time has passed, and the attack is not possible.

It would appear that a minor calculation tweak would probably set these missiles on their proper course and trajectory.

Hopefully, others will weigh in with some more feedback.

Doug

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/19/2021 5:45:03 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
Hopefully, others will weigh in with some more feedback.

I'm seeing that too. Every time I start (in the editor) as the Chinese side, launch at the Essex and use God's Eye View to see the SM-3 ABMs, they undershoot every time - usually by about 20-25 km altitude. There's sometimes a noticeable pause where they cross over on the map, as if the game is trying to calculate the interaction, but nothing appears in the log. I'm guessing the distance is too great to trigger a report.

I've tried it on my desktop and laptop in case CPU made any difference, but I'm getting the same results.

I enclose a save that's just before a crossover.

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 4/19/2021 7:23:41 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
Hopefully, others will weigh in with some more feedback.

I'm seeing that too. Every time I start (in the editor) as the Chinese side, launch at the Essex and use God's Eye View to see the SM-3 ABMs, they undershoot every time - usually by about 20-25 km altitude. There's sometimes a noticeable pause where they cross over on the map, as if the game is trying to calculate the interaction, but nothing appears in the log. I'm guessing the distance is too great to trigger a report.

I've tried it on my desktop and laptop in case CPU made any difference, but I'm getting the same results.

I enclose a save that's just before a crossover.


Very visible with your save. Confirm I'm seeing it here too.

Mike

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 22
RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 5/3/2021 9:15:32 PM   
DWReese

 

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I see that a new version of the game, V 1.03 should be released along with the new DLC in a couple of days. I will definitely be making that purchase.

Aside from that, I was wondering if you might be able to reveal whether this "ABM/ballistic missile overshoot" issue will be one of the items corrected in the new version?

Thanks in advance.

Doug

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 5/8/2021 7:58:37 PM   
alphali

 

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I ran guanotwozero's scenario from post #21 and got the same result as his. But I also ran DWReese's scenario from post #16 and the missiles are hitting every time.
The main difference I see between the two engagements is that in DWReese's scenario the SM3's won't engage the missiles until they are about 550nm because of "Target outside weapon DLZ" when the missile cross around 550nm the SM3's are launched and they are hitting every time.
While in guanotwozero's, if I delete his missiles that are already in the air and launch new BM at Essex, the SM3's are launching as soon as the BM and being detected from over 700nm away and they are missing every time. If I launch another set manually when the BM are 550nm away they are successfully intercepting and destroying the targets always.

I don't know why there is such a difference in the DLZ calculations between the two scenarios. But I think that's the issue, sometime the missiles are firing too early even when they are outside the DLZ limit.



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< Message edited by alphali -- 5/8/2021 8:03:57 PM >

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 5/8/2021 8:06:01 PM   
alphali

 

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Thi picture above shows the launch of the SM3's when the BM are 550nm away, in this engagement they are always hitting.
The image below shows the SM3's launch as soon as the BM are being detected from 700nm away and in this case they are always missing

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 5/8/2021 9:36:23 PM   
DWReese

 

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Make sure that you are using the scenario in either Post 15 or 18 so that we are talking about the same thing. The successful tests weren't from the same distance. The shorter-ranged SM-3 was able to hit its targets, but the calculation being done on the longer version were all UNDER SHOOTING their targets. I have not trued it since the update.

Doug

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Post #: 26
RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 5/9/2021 1:08:10 PM   
alphali

 

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My bad, I didn't notice there are two versions of the SM3 that you are testing .

In the post #16 scenario file "Attack 1" you had SM3 Blk1B (short version) loaded and these are hitting almost every time(also they had the WRA range set to 250nm for some reason which I had to change to automatic)

While in post #19 scenario file "New Scenario" you had SM3 blk2A loaded. And like guanotwozero those are missing every time with the "overshot target" msg.

I repeated the scenario 5 times, all the times all the missiles are not targeting, so I am not getting the weird behavior you describe of that happening only the first time.

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Post #: 27
RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 5/9/2021 3:28:29 PM   
DWReese

 

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So, even with the updated version of the game, the longer-ranged version of SM-3 missiles are still missing their targets, is that correct?

Doug

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Post #: 28
RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 5/10/2021 5:14:23 PM   
alphali

 

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Yes so it seems

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RE: ABM Overshoot Issue - 5/31/2021 12:39:46 AM   
thewood1

 

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/us-warship-fails-to-intercept-ballistic-missile-test-target/ar-AAKxEaN?li=BBnb7Kz

Maybe the devs can fix this in the next release. Obviously something's broken.

Thats sarcasm.

_____________________________

You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

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