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Help with manual air recon - 4/8/2021 11:18:38 PM   
squatter

 

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Trying to get the best out of my air recon:

Is there a way to keep all AD zones marked on the map while you a placing a new AD - whenever I am placing a new recon zone, all other AOG zones disappear (despite the show AD button selected). Its a pain in the for determining recon overlap

What represents an intense recon mission, I mean if you want to seriously recon a zone prior to an offensive;

What min/req AC and esc should you determine? How does this relate to the size of the zone you want to recon? How do I saturate a 6x6 area?

Presumably you have to select no escorts if the zone is too far away from your fighter bases?

Should you go for high intensity if you really want to know what's there?

How many days - go for all seven or is that a death trap?

And I still cant get my head around the difference between 'minimum aircraft' and 'required aircraft' - the words suggest the same thing? "You need a minimum of 2 aircraft to fly this mission" means the same to me as "you require 2 aircraft to fly this mission". Obviously I am not understanding the nuance here.

PS: it would be really great if you could set a recon AD, and then copy and paste it across your front. Something like hold control and drag to duplicate an AD. Perhaps this is possible and I've missed that?



< Message edited by squatter -- 4/8/2021 11:20:43 PM >
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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/8/2021 11:37:45 PM   
FriedrichII

 

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As far as I know, if you set required aircraft to 8 and minimum aircraft to 4 it means:
I want 8 planes for that mission and if there are not enough planes able to fulfill this task then do not run the mission if there are less than 4 available.

What I still did not figure out is how to avoid this massive losses while doing recon? Does anyone know which altitude is recommended for recon. Some recon planes have low altitude cameras and some have cameras for high altitude. Should I treat them differently regarding the flight plan altitude?

< Message edited by FriedrichII -- 4/8/2021 11:38:45 PM >

(in reply to squatter)
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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/8/2021 11:42:17 PM   
squatter

 

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quote:

As far as I know, if you set required aircraft to 8 and minimum aircraft to 4 it means:
I want 8 planes for that mission and if there are not enough planes able to fulfill this task then do not run the mission if there are less than 4 available.


If that is correct then it's an abuse of the word 'required'

You are inferring they mean 'preferred'?

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/8/2021 11:55:20 PM   
FriedrichII

 

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I just took a look into the game and saw req does not mean required but instead requested, so that everything should now make sense.

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 12:09:26 AM   
squatter

 

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If you hover the mouse over 'Min AC' it says 'change minimum aircraft'.

If you hover the mouse over 'Req AC' it says 'change required aircraft'.

I don't understand the difference between "this mission has a minimum of 4 aircraft" and "this mission requires 4 aircraft"

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 12:50:38 AM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

What represents an intense recon mission, I mean if you want to seriously recon a zone prior to an offensive;

What min/req AC and esc should you determine? How does this relate to the size of the zone you want to recon? How do I saturate a 6x6 area?

Presumably you have to select no escorts if the zone is too far away from your fighter bases?

Should you go for high intensity if you really want to know what's there?

How many days - go for all seven or is that a death trap?

PS: it would be really great if you could set a recon AD, and then copy and paste it across your front. Something like hold control and drag to duplicate an AD. Perhaps this is possible and I've missed that?


It will depend on terrain and if you just want to know that's something is there or if you want more information on the units you find.

Your long range units are scarce in beginning, only the Ju88 and to a lesser extent the Do17 qualify, so forget going on intense recon in 41.

Medium intensity setting, for a AOG of 40-50 planes with a 5 hex box 4 times a week is about the max I think you can sustain before ops losses really start to bite. Only focus on you pocket target, that's all you really need to know in 41.

No escort has the range, and you need the ones you have forward for intercepting enemy GS. I get seldomly get intercepted if I go in at 25000ft.

I never have more than 2 Recon directives per Army Group, I just drag them to the new position when I need them

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 8:19:15 AM   
FriedrichII

 

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The tool tip says change required aircraft, but after clicking it it says Enter requested number of planes in strike.

I think that the tooltip text should be changed to "change requested aircraft".

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 9:49:43 AM   
squatter

 

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Thanks Friedrich, yes clearly the tooltip uses the wrong word.

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 10:09:16 AM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter



It will depend on terrain and if you just want to know that's something is there or if you want more information on the units you find.

Your long range units are scarce in beginning, only the Ju88 and to a lesser extent the Do17 qualify, so forget going on intense recon in 41.

Medium intensity setting, for a AOG of 40-50 planes with a 5 hex box 4 times a week is about the max I think you can sustain before ops losses really start to bite. Only focus on you pocket target, that's all you really need to know in 41.

No escort has the range, and you need the ones you have forward for intercepting enemy GS. I get seldomly get intercepted if I go in at 25000ft.

I never have more than 2 Recon directives per Army Group, I just drag them to the new position when I need them

quote:

I never have more than 2 Recon directives per Army Group, I just drag them to the new position when I need them


Thanks Mech - appreciate the input.

I'm still confused over what makes a recon mission 'routine' or 'intense', for example.

What is the interrelation between the size of a recon area, and the quality/intensity of recon? Do you get better recon with a 2x2 box compared to a 4x4 box?

What size AOG (how many planes) represents quality return on your recon in, say a 4x4 box? What should be the min ac value for best results? What should be the requested ac value?

Can I rely on auto AOG selection, or do I have to manually select the AOG every time in order to ensure that the right size AOG is allocated?

How are players realistically expected to know these things?

The manual goes to great length telling you how to put an AD together, but what help does the game and/or manual give players in understanding how to achieve simple real world goals in the air war, other than painstaking trial and error? Or constantly coming on this forum to annoy others into spelling it out?



(in reply to MechFO)
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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 10:55:52 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter


quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

...

It will depend on terrain and if you just want to know that's something is there or if you want more information on the units you find.

...

..

I'm still confused over what makes a recon mission 'routine' or 'intense', for example.

What is the interrelation between the size of a recon area, and the quality/intensity of recon? Do you get better recon with a 2x2 box compared to a 4x4 box?

What size AOG (how many planes) represents quality return on your recon in, say a 4x4 box? What should be the min ac value for best results? What should be the requested ac value?

Can I rely on auto AOG selection, or do I have to manually select the AOG every time in order to ensure that the right size AOG is allocated?

How are players realistically expected to know these things?

The manual goes to great length telling you how to put an AD together, but what help does the game and/or manual give players in understanding how to achieve simple real world goals in the air war, other than painstaking trial and error? Or constantly coming on this forum to annoy others into spelling it out?



this is a wee bit like the supply system, there are building blocks but a lot of ways to get to a desired end point. So in some cases the manual has to stick to the technical how to rather than an outcome based discussion - in part as the input rules could change and in part as different people come up with a solution that works for them.

I don't think you are at risk of annoying anyone by asking - the questions are fair and that starts to pull out a range of opinions from which you (and others) can craft your own approach.

so some answers, - there is a close correlation between mission intensity. number of planes and a small box. Dump 100 recon planes on a single hex and you will know all about it.

Now recon planes are a scarce resource (here and in WiTW) and this never eases (unlike some early game plane shortages) which raises a question that can only be answered situationally. How much of that scarce (& practically - finite) resource are you prepared to spend for the outcome you desire?

Now here's my view, I usually am in one of two situations. I'm poking around just to check or I am planning a significant offensive and I want to know what is there. So a typical 1941 turn as the axis has to be the first, so I tend to use the bi-planes of the short range stuff, a 4*4 matrix, 'interdiction' (I want to know if something is there not really what it is) and say 20-30 planes. In the second, I'll commit the Ju-88s in a box that fits and as much as I can spare. I'll still only recon 2-3 days a week. Its 'as much as I can spare' because I've decided this matters.

As an eg in the last turn of my current game, it looked like the Soviets had pulled back radically but I wasn't sure. So I did an intense mission as that made a difference to how I saw the ground moves working out, in the end I probably got a better set of moves knowing the answer than if I'd had to rely on ground recon as I moved. But I knew he was holding the land bridge, so I ran a really low intensity 3*3 block with a single bi-plane formation just to confirm what I suspected, - that he had lots of reserves behind what was quite a strong front line.

Now that was my reading of the situation - here is what I was looking at:



No I decided that was worth risking my Ju-88 recon. I know he doesn't have much, if there is a lot east of my Dnepr bridgehead then there cannot be much behind the land-bridge, if he is pulled back east of Smolensk can I get in behind the city?

Recon helps me refine that decision - key is its a tool to purpose not an abstract idea. As it was I lost 41 recon planes that turn -21 were Ju88D or Bf110 (so stuff I'll miss - since my combined production of the 2 is 14 a week)

So this is what I found (apols for all the white but this is a PBEM game), the area south of Smolensk was clear, there were strong reserves behind the land bridge.



Now I think that was worth spending irreplaceable assets, someone else could well disagree with me and think you could get the same results via ground recon.

In the main with recon I manually assign, usually because I don't want the fighters running escorts when I have other uses for them. It also helps keep the longer ranged better assets out of use till I want them.


_____________________________


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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 11:44:11 AM   
squatter

 

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As ever Loki I salute your patience and willingness to help!

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 11:53:13 AM   
squatter

 

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I have to say the manual is fantastic, as are the one page guides.

But they are - as they should be - focused on the technical aspects of the game.

I feel what the game lacks as a package are a set of practical guides (such as the info you set out above Loki) on how to achieve real-world goals, especially in the systems which dont exist as counters on the map - in particular air war and logistics, which are extremely opaque systems to the new player.

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Post #: 12
RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 12:38:00 PM   
Arthurius

 

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I have very low OP losses when I cut down number of strikes to 2-3 per Day (All 7 days in schedule but only 2-3 missions per day). I try avoid Airfield reconesans also (high flak losses and Air Combat losses).

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 3:16:27 PM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

I feel what the game lacks as a package are a set of practical guides (such as the info you set out above Loki) on how to achieve real-world goals, especially in the systems which dont exist as counters on the map - in particular air war and logistics, which are extremely opaque systems to the new player.
I

Isn't half the fun of things learning it yourself and sharing your triumphs and disasters with the community?I

Much of the detail you ask for is difficult to describe as the game has so many choices and trade offs. The manual couldn't be any bigger as the publisher and posties said no.


_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 3:25:22 PM   
Laits


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

I feel what the game lacks as a package are a set of practical guides (such as the info you set out above Loki) on how to achieve real-world goals, especially in the systems which dont exist as counters on the map - in particular air war and logistics, which are extremely opaque systems to the new player.
I

Isn't half the fun of things learning it yourself and sharing your triumphs and disasters with the community?I

Much of the detail you ask for is difficult to describe as the game has so many choices and trade offs. The manual couldn't be any bigger as the publisher and posties said no.



I completely agree.
The manual is bigger enough and I prefer discovering tips, tactics and strategies while playing or chatting with the community than having everything written in a billion pages book.


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More majorum

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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 3:51:58 PM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Trying to get the best out of my air recon:

Is there a way to keep all AD zones marked on the map while you a placing a new AD - whenever I am placing a new recon zone, all other AOG zones disappear (despite the show AD button selected). Its a pain in the for determining recon overlap



SHIFT + Y

(in reply to squatter)
Post #: 16
RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 4:07:02 PM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

I feel what the game lacks as a package are a set of practical guides (such as the info you set out above Loki) on how to achieve real-world goals, especially in the systems which dont exist as counters on the map - in particular air war and logistics, which are extremely opaque systems to the new player.
I

Isn't half the fun of things learning it yourself and sharing your triumphs and disasters with the community?I

Much of the detail you ask for is difficult to describe as the game has so many choices and trade offs. The manual couldn't be any bigger as the publisher and posties said no.



Yes I agree when it comes to strategies etc, but not so much when it comes to carrying out basic tactical operations such as an effective recon mission!

I don't think me sharing my struggles getting the air war functioning on a basic level makes for much excitement for the community to read!

Each to their own however.




(in reply to RedLancer)
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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 4:19:34 PM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Trying to get the best out of my air recon:

Is there a way to keep all AD zones marked on the map while you a placing a new AD - whenever I am placing a new recon zone, all other AOG zones disappear (despite the show AD button selected). Its a pain in the for determining recon overlap



SHIFT + Y


Thanks - I'm aware of this function but what I'm talking about is when you are placing an AD box, all the others disappear so you can't judge overlaps etc.

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 18
RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 4:42:53 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

...

Thanks - I'm aware of this function but what I'm talking about is when you are placing an AD box, all the others disappear so you can't judge overlaps etc.


unfortunately not, seems that only the AD you are working on can be shown at any time. Having said that, if all you are doing is amending, there is a quite a lot of functionality from the AD box and then you can keep an eye on the wider pattern

_____________________________


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RE: Help with manual air recon - 4/9/2021 7:02:20 PM   
dudefan

 

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Seeing the ADs all the time like squatter suggested would be indeed very nice

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Post #: 20
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