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AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 3:18:28 PM   
squatter

 

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In the attached image you can see V Fliegerkorps has 1st Panzer Group as its FHQ and is set to advance.

Three turns ago 1st PG was in Proskurov. Two turns ago it was where the yellow arrow is. Last turn it moved east in the direction of the red arrow.

Yet V Fliegerkorps remains where it is, and 1st PG has had no air cover for three turns. I'm struggling to explain why it is not moving assets closer to the front where there are plentiful airbases. Can anyone help explain?

I'm playing with manual AI, but using AI air assist button every turn.






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< Message edited by squatter -- 4/7/2021 3:19:07 PM >
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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 3:20:11 PM   
Sardaukar


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Have you assigned it to PG1 ?

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 3:26:07 PM   
MechFO

 

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Yes, you see the FHQ is 1. Panzer Group.

I would guess logistics is the answer. Maybe post a picture of your supply network.

I manually control the AOG's and I find that I can move fighters fairly quickly but the bombers have to stay way back for the supply network to function. My KG's only move when I have Kiev. This make the HE111 very valuable with their much bigger range. Forget using the Stukas until 42, their range is so short, and you advance so rapid, it's not worth moving them forward. They are very good for covering a static front.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 3:29:56 PM   
Sardaukar


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Ah, logistics probably.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 5:13:19 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Yes, the AI is very careful about moving AOGs to where your logistics may not support them properly. Once the logistics is in place the AI will move them forward.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 5:41:56 PM   
squatter

 

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Ok thanks guys that sounds plausible - obviously supplies are a little tight at the front at the moment!

But then you can see from below image that Tarnopol depot is functioning well and storing supplies (currently 10k), so presumably that's enough to support some nearby air units?

Three questions:

1 When manually controlling deployment of air groups, how do players judge when a newly captured airbase is capable of supplying air formations there?

2 is it typical experience even for those who manually operate the air war to be without fighter cover for much of June/July on the SW front while the spear heads are charging forward?

3 When you hit the 'AI assist' button, nothing physical happens, just that the AI makes its decisions, decides on its ADs etc. At this point, can I see what AOG rebase moves the AI is planning? If not, how can you check what rebase moves the AI is intending on carrying out?




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< Message edited by squatter -- 4/7/2021 5:51:42 PM >

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 9:02:06 PM   
MechFO

 

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Only on my first game but considering you seem to be trying to supply most of Army Group South past Kiev out of 2 lvl 2 Railyards as far back as Tarnopol I don't think the supply is reaching your front units due to distance and maybe truck limitations.

Check the lost freight and truck usage in the logisitcs report.

Remember that moving freight needs Railyard 2+ capacity within 30 hexes for rolling stock, so you ignoring Kiev is not going to help you going into Eastern Ukraine.

1. I move a JG more or less with my most forward Railyard 2 depot. Or several Railyard 1's close by. KG's go to medium range lvl 2 airfields within 3 hexes of a depot that's not being used to supply land units. In your case Lvov would be the nearest candidate, but not worth it. The AI will launch strikes on big Railyards so they need to be covered.

2. This is normal.

3. No idea

Don't think it's good practice to go from 4 to 0 in depot priority, maybe graduate it along so Lvov 3, one back 2 etc. If there's not enough rolling stock to move supply to destination they will dump in lower priority depots along the way, but in a depot on 0.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 11:34:43 PM   
Joel Billings


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I think the AI assist will try to move units immediately, but I'll have to ask Gary if it will order moves that will be delayed until after the logistics phase. If a move has been ordered but has been delayed until supplies arrive, you will see a small symbol on the AOG label on the map that indicates a transfer is in the works. I actually think the AOG avoids this and may only move if it can do it immediately, but I'm not sure how things ended up.

A player that manually orders a move can force a move to go ahead even if the initial request plans to stage the ordered move due to a lack of supplies.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/7/2021 11:59:38 PM   
carlkay58

 

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The AI will move either at the end of the Ground Phase or the Logistics Phase depending on when it thinks the target airbases have sufficient supplies to make the move plausible. The AI will never plan a move ahead, they are all immediate transfers when the AI determines the move is possible. I have actually seen the AI move the AOGs forward at the end of the Ground Phase just to move the AOG again (usually backwards) for better supply in the following Air Phase.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 9:59:59 AM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

Only on my first game but considering you seem to be trying to supply most of Army Group South past Kiev out of 2 lvl 2 Railyards as far back as Tarnopol I don't think the supply is reaching your front units due to distance and maybe truck limitations.

Check the lost freight and truck usage in the logisitcs report.

Remember that moving freight needs Railyard 2+ capacity within 30 hexes for rolling stock, so you ignoring Kiev is not going to help you going into Eastern Ukraine.

1. I move a JG more or less with my most forward Railyard 2 depot. Or several Railyard 1's close by. KG's go to medium range lvl 2 airfields within 3 hexes of a depot that's not being used to supply land units. In your case Lvov would be the nearest candidate, but not worth it. The AI will launch strikes on big Railyards so they need to be covered.

2. This is normal.

3. No idea

Don't think it's good practice to go from 4 to 0 in depot priority, maybe graduate it along so Lvov 3, one back 2 etc. If there's not enough rolling stock to move supply to destination they will dump in lower priority depots along the way, but in a depot on 0.


Thanks for the input - good points.

On your final point, I'd invite others to comment also. It's a good question...

So as you see below, I can see that Tarnapol and Proskurov are successfully supplying my front, and Tarnapol is receiving more than is needed, as it has stored 11k tonnes.

I took that to mean I have a supply surplus in the zone, hence turned off the Lvov depot completely. Your point is I should have Lvov on 3 or 2 to have a kind of 'cascade' of depots. I wonder what more experienced players would suggest in this instance? Would having Lvov take supplies help encourage the air AI base further forward?





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< Message edited by squatter -- 4/8/2021 10:46:10 AM >

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 10:04:12 AM   
squatter

 

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Thanks Joel and Carlkay - so when the AI is deciding whether forward airbases have enough supplies, what is it basing its decision on? Does it look at the nearest depot to see whether it has surplus capacity? Or is it looking at several depots nearby to make its calculation?

Ie if I want to encourage the AI to base further forward, should I be looking to create a superdepot, or several smaller depots behind the lines?

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 10:31:53 AM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter


quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

Only on my first game but considering you seem to be trying to supply most of Army Group South past Kiev out of 2 lvl 2 Railyards as far back as Tarnopol I don't think the supply is reaching your front units due to distance and maybe truck limitations.

Check the lost freight and truck usage in the logisitcs report.

Remember that moving freight needs Railyard 2+ capacity within 30 hexes for rolling stock, so you ignoring Kiev is not going to help you going into Eastern Ukraine.

1. I move a JG more or less with my most forward Railyard 2 depot. Or several Railyard 1's close by. KG's go to medium range lvl 2 airfields within 3 hexes of a depot that's not being used to supply land units. In your case Lvov would be the nearest candidate, but not worth it. The AI will launch strikes on big Railyards so they need to be covered.

2. This is normal.

3. No idea

Don't think it's good practice to go from 4 to 0 in depot priority, maybe graduate it along so Lvov 3, one back 2 etc. If there's not enough rolling stock to move supply to destination they will dump in lower priority depots along the way, but in a depot on 0.


Thanks for the input - good points.

On your final point, I'd invite others to comment also. It's a good question...

So as you see below, I can see that Tarnapol and Proskurov are successfully supplying my front, and Tarnapol is receiving more than is needed, as it has stored 11k tonnes.

I took that to mean I have a supply surplus in the zone, hence turned off the Lvov depot completely. Your point is I should have Lvov on 3 or 2 to have a kind of 'cascade' of depots. I wonder what more experienced players would suggest in this instance? Would having Lvov take supplies help encourage the air AI base further forward?



Cascade seems to be the way to go but no idea how it influences the AI.

I don't see a screenshot so don't know what you meant to show. What's in the depot doesnt really show much as that is only the first part of the chain.

Check your logistic report, it shows Supply need, Supply delivered and Supply losses by Army, as well as how many trucks are used by depots. High freight losses and high truck usage points to overstretched supply lines.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 10:44:23 AM   
sven6345789

 

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What you could do is test moving them manually. just as a test. save before trying.

1. left klick on the V fliegerkorps AOG
2. hold the control button, then left click and hold to draw a box ( your cursor being the left top corner when you left click).
3 right click the AOG after drawaing the box
4 choose planned transfer of air units ( the other option being immediate transfer ( meaning transfer all without regard to supplies)
5. you will now get a message saying x out of y air units moved.

If none or just a few of the air units move, there are supply issues.


< Message edited by sven6345789 -- 4/8/2021 10:45:26 AM >


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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 10:46:40 AM   
squatter

 

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Edit - Screenshot added to previous post.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 10:57:37 AM   
MechFO

 

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It seems you are supplying quite a few units from the single track in Rumania, some all the way up to Kiev. I don't think that's a good sign.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 11:26:24 AM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

It seems you are supplying quite a few units from the single track in Rumania, some all the way up to Kiev. I don't think that's a good sign.



Well yes of course, but whose supply lines look any good when its July 41 and your panzers are knocking on the door of Dnepropretrovsk! Of course the reduction of the Vinnitsa pocket will help with this.

But we're moving away from the point, which is not "is this a good example of a well functioning supply situation" (of course it isnt), but rather: how to create the supply conditions for the AI to rebase fighters closer to the front?

In the example above, it appears that there is a surplus of supply at Tarnapol (11k), so what is it that the AI doesn't like about the airfields nearby to Tarnapol?

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 12:03:55 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I too strongly suspect logistics as the cause. Typically, you want to make sure you have good airbase locations at or right next to your depot locations on your connected rails. Every instance where the AI Assist AOGs did not move up during testing for me came down to either logistics or stance issues (or just that they didn't need to as they had plenty of range from where they were, but that doesn't look to be the case here and you stated you had them on the Advance stance).

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/8/2021 12:04:27 PM >


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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 1:07:40 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Lvov is a large railyard (6) and as such should be a major depot for drawing supplies from an NSS and ready to distribute forward. This should always be a 1 or higher (I usually use a 2 for these types of depots).

The AI is looking for good supply depots with spare freight. When an AOG is moved supply is shipped to the airbase in order to put the air units in supply. If there is no freight that can go there then the AI will not send anything there.

Remember that a depot level of at least 1 keeps some supply flowing in and out of the depot. If it is not at least a 1 then the AI will not base near it because it can't draw the supply for the airbase when it moves in the AOG.

You also have the size of the airbase to take into consideration. The AI likes to keep to level 2 airbases whenever possible. It will only use level 1 airbases for recon and fighter AOGs but it really does not like using them.

Keep the AI Stance to ADVANCE to move them forward. FLEXIBLE is too random for me - some turns it moves them forward just to move them back the next turn to further back than they started. FLEXIBLE seems to always be moving. Remember that without an HQ to follow or a Port to patrol the AI has no direction on what the AOG should be doing. Once it has either a Follow HQ or a Port it knows where the air directives should be placed.

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RE: AOG not moving forward? - 4/8/2021 3:32:03 PM   
squatter

 

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Thanks guys - I'm gonna beef up my supply net near where I want the airforce to base from now on in...

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