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Motor Gun Boats - 4/6/2021 5:49:34 AM   
Tanaka


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You can convert Torpedo Boats to Motor Gun Boats with depth charges. But how can you use a PT boat against subs if they cannot be in an ASW fleet? Or any other kind of fleet for that matter?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 4/6/2021 5:51:17 AM >


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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/6/2021 6:12:58 AM   
BBfanboy


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I think they use cormorants to find the subs for them. Don't worry about it. If they detect the sub they will attack it, same as a DD on a Surface Combat mission will still attack a sub it detects.

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/6/2021 12:36:08 PM   
HansBolter


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I have not seen a PT or an MTB that will convert to an MGB.

I HAVE seen plenty of MLs that will convert to MGBs.

The advantage an MGB has over an ML is that the MGB is a pool craft while the ML is not.

Being a pool craft provides far greater flexibility for use over a far greater area for these very short legged boats.

I'm also pretty sure the MGBs can be used in ASW TFs.



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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/6/2021 7:33:01 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I have not seen a PT or an MTB that will convert to an MGB.

I HAVE seen plenty of MLs that will convert to MGBs.

The advantage an MGB has over an ML is that the MGB is a pool craft while the ML is not.

Being a pool craft provides far greater flexibility for use over a far greater area for these very short legged boats.

I'm also pretty sure the MGBs can be used in ASW TFs.




Not sure about allied but as Japanese you can convert your MTB boats to MGB. Tried to make ASW with them but PT only possible...


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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 1:10:56 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

but as Japanese you can convert your MTB boats to MGB.


+1

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 1:19:44 AM   
HansBolter


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Can't think of a single reason for wanting to convert a PT, or MTB to an MGB or use a PT in an ASW TF.


< Message edited by HansBolter -- 4/7/2021 1:20:04 AM >


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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 1:41:07 AM   
rustysi


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Japan gets some MGB's, I convert them to MTB's.

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 1:49:14 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Can't think of a single reason for wanting to convert a PT, or MTB to an MGB or use a PT in an ASW TF.



Not much use for Torpedo boats around Japan so I figured they would have more use against submarines since the MGB have depth charges instead of torpedoes...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 4/7/2021 1:50:43 AM >


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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 2:04:03 AM   
rustysi


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Until late '43 (in scen1) you only get six. Then a stream begins to come, put them into the pool and create them at a base that's being bombarded/invaded, just as the Allies would use their PT's.

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 2:18:36 AM   
jdsrae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Can't think of a single reason for wanting to convert a PT, or MTB to an MGB or use a PT in an ASW TF.



Not much use for Torpedo boats around Japan so I figured they would have more use against submarines since the MGB have depth charges instead of torpedoes...


I converted the ones that start the war to MGB for this reason.
In PT task force set to patrol close to base hexes they’ve made contact with Allied subs a few times.
I can’t remember if they’ve ever dropped depth charges, but I can remember seeing the message that says something like “Sub can’t acquire firing solution” on the MGBs.
The MGBs rack up system damage quickly even on short range local patrols so they are at best a nuisance to Allied subs.

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 4:14:16 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Can't think of a single reason for wanting to convert a PT, or MTB to an MGB or use a PT in an ASW TF.



Not much use for Torpedo boats around Japan so I figured they would have more use against submarines since the MGB have depth charges instead of torpedoes...


I converted the ones that start the war to MGB for this reason.
In PT task force set to patrol close to base hexes they’ve made contact with Allied subs a few times.
I can’t remember if they’ve ever dropped depth charges, but I can remember seeing the message that says something like “Sub can’t acquire firing solution” on the MGBs.
The MGBs rack up system damage quickly even on short range local patrols so they are at best a nuisance to Allied subs.


Thanks for this!

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 4:50:36 AM   
spence

 

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IIRC American PTs torpedoed two IJN submarines during WW2. I suppose they were patrolling a hex when they encountered the sub.

Along another line if the IJN gets either MLs or MGBs they ought to convert them to MTBs as soon as they can...although IRL they did not carry any spares in Witp:AE they get to reload torpedoes and fire a second time. As an Allied player I have had a (very) occasional torpedo hit on an IJN warship...at least the Japanese get to double that (to an unusual torpedo hit I suppose) on an Allied warship.

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 6:22:20 PM   
fcooke

 

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I cannot recall any PT boats torping an IJN sub? Any more info on that? Curious. I'm pretty sure some PTs took out an IJN sub near/on Guadalcanal but I thought it was with depth charges.

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/7/2021 11:56:06 PM   
spence

 

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PT-59 sank the I-3 with a torpedo near Guadalcanal on 9 December 1942. It seems to me that the other IJN submarine sunk by torpedoes was near New Guinea sometime in 1943 but I'm too lazy to go through the IJN subs one by one to figure out which sub was sunk by PTs.

(if you'd like to do it check out: http://www.combinedfleet.com/sensuikan.htm )

< Message edited by spence -- 4/7/2021 11:58:59 PM >

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/9/2021 10:45:44 PM   
fcooke

 

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So US PTs got more subs that IJN subs got US subs ? IIRC the IJN subs only got 1 US sub in the entire war. Though I cannot remember the name of the boat that was lost off the top off my head.

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/9/2021 11:54:26 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

So US PTs got more subs that IJN subs got US subs ? IIRC the IJN subs only got 1 US sub in the entire war. Though I cannot remember the name of the boat that was lost off the top off my head.


USS Corvina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Corvina

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/11/2021 12:11:19 AM   
spence

 

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Having actually gone through the TROMs of the IJN subs it seems that the only confirmed kill of an IJN sub was the I-3 by PT-59. PT-150 and another PT (different in each case) fired torpedoes at both I-17 and I-6 in 1943 and in the case of I-17 sank several barges which were being towed by the sub using their guns and their shallow set depth charges. The sub later surfaced and rescued some of the soldiers on the barges (they had already been sunk before during the Battle of the Bismarck Sea and were being rescued by the sub).

RO-102 and RO-103 both disappeared near Guadalcanal in 1943. Their fate is unknown but one or both may have been attacked by a PT boat (unknown) or hit a mine.

Another IJN sub, I-181, was lost when attacked by an unknown DD and unknown PT while on a supply run to Gali, New Guinea in Jan 1944. The action was witnessed by Japanese troops ashore but the ID of the destroyer and/or PT boat remains unknown.

< Message edited by spence -- 4/11/2021 12:14:25 AM >

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/11/2021 1:07:11 AM   
Lowpe


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You can put PT boats or MGB boats into escort task forces, and the MGB will attack located subs. Not a bad use for them early on for Japan.


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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/11/2021 10:13:14 AM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

You can put PT boats or MGB boats into escort task forces, and the MGB will attack located subs. Not a bad use for them early on for Japan.




Just to clarify.

Anything in Escort TF will try to avoid combat. It is for escorting crippled ships.

»» Escort. These are general purpose “ship movement” TFs. They are used to
evacuate damaged ships from the battle area, and to move ships between
bases. They cannot load or unload, or perform any other function, and will
flee all enemy forces. They may include any type of surface ship, including
those too badly damaged to fight. Maximum TF size is 100 ships.


Surface Combat etc. work fine.

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/12/2021 2:31:55 AM   
spence

 

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Although the Japanese never suffered the loss of any major combatants to PT boats they were very reluctant to commit major combatants in the restricted waters in which they were likely to encounter PT boats. The "Big Gun Club" in the IJN seems to have been allergic to a totally expendable plywood toy boat slipping a torpedo into one of their major ships.

So the question that comes to mind is why do PT boats always retreat to an adjacent hex even though they often have torpedoes remaining, are set to absolute threat tolerance, and are set to whatever port they're in with do not retire also set?
?

BTW do the Japanese MTBs which to my knowledge accomplished nothing at all IRL also retreat following combat?

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/12/2021 5:38:03 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

You can put PT boats or MGB boats into escort task forces, and the MGB will attack located subs. Not a bad use for them early on for Japan.




Just to clarify.

Anything in Escort TF will try to avoid combat. It is for escorting crippled ships.

»» Escort. These are general purpose “ship movement” TFs. They are used to
evacuate damaged ships from the battle area, and to move ships between
bases. They cannot load or unload, or perform any other function, and will
flee all enemy forces. They may include any type of surface ship, including
those too badly damaged to fight. Maximum TF size is 100 ships.


Surface Combat etc. work fine.


Good to know with both thanks for the tips!

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RE: Motor Gun Boats - 4/13/2021 6:14:24 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Although the Japanese never suffered the loss of any major combatants to PT boats they were very reluctant to commit major combatants in the restricted waters in which they were likely to encounter PT boats. The "Big Gun Club" in the IJN seems to have been allergic to a totally expendable plywood toy boat slipping a torpedo into one of their major ships.

So the question that comes to mind is why do PT boats always retreat to an adjacent hex even though they often have torpedoes remaining, are set to absolute threat tolerance, and are set to whatever port they're in with do not retire also set?
?

BTW do the Japanese MTBs which to my knowledge accomplished nothing at all IRL also retreat following combat?

The inspiration for the Japanese fear of MTBs? Two words: Svent Istvan.

I experienced the same retreat behaviour when I had Force Z defending Singapore. A series of IJN TFs arrived and Force Z hammered the first ones pretty good but got low on ammo. It had only to get back into port to reload and disband some heavily damaged DDs but it retreated to the Strait of Malacca and would not return to Singers while the IJN was still there - Direct and Absolute routing notwithstanding. I ended up sending the Force Z survivors to Colombo to rearm.
For your PT boat situation, it is the same - some of your PTs were out of ammo and the AI retreats when any ship in the TF is short on ammo of fuel.

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