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Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (Submitted)

 
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Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (Submitted) - 4/5/2021 12:09:27 AM   
BeirutDude


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Updated Below

So calling all submarine commanders. This is an extension of the two previous PLAN vs. JMSDF/USN in the Ryukyu's conflict, 2022 scenarios (the conflict has expanded to Korea). Your PLAN SSN must sink as many of the vessels of a forming convoy as possible and escape to win.

Saw an interesting discussion on Submarines and if they are modeled correctly on the forum, well for those who feel they are modeled correctly, this one should be simple. Only a few MPAs and ASW patrols to get past, a few are only Japanese Coast Guard, lots of heavy rain & moderate waves for ambient noise and lots of shipping noise in the water to boot! You have 24 hours so you can take your time!!!!!

Sounds like a good submarine commander's dream to me!!!!!!

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/29/2021 11:40:02 PM >


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Post #: 1
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/5/2021 10:42:11 PM   
BeirutDude


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Going to remove the bottom arrays. In 10 test runs the best I was able to do is reach the straits between the island and peninsula. So looked at what was detecting the SSN and it was mainly the bottom arrays. So they tilt the balance too much to the JMSDF. I suspect they ARE there, but game wise...

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
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(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 2
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 12:22:21 AM   
KungPao


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Hi BeirutDude . Good to know bottom arrays are going to be removed.

Just finished the first try. At first I went to periscope depth, ESM didn't pickup anything. I decided to get into the layer, running at 15kt for one hour, then reduced to 5 kts. One hour later. "boom".

After checking the log I know I don't stand a chance here.

4/29/2022 9:00:21 PM - Switched side to: PLAN

4/29/2022 9:00:26 PM - [West] Contact: GOBLIN #93 has been type-classified as: SSN (Classification by: Bottom Fixed Array (J/LQO-6 SOSUS) [Sensor: J/LQO-6 SOSUS] at Estimated 431 nm)




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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 1:01:22 AM   
stww2

 

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That was pretty much the exact same tactic I employed...it worked just as well.

I looked at the log. The bottom fixed array detected me pretty much as soon as the scenario started, although, unlike in KungPao's playthrough, the SSN classification didn't come for another 44 minutes.

IIRC, Dimitris mentioned in another thread that ambient noise doesn't currently affect sonar performance...that could explain the Bottom Fixed Array's effectiveness here. Or maybe it really is that effective...which would be a somewhat reassuring thought, except it strikes me as too good be true. Regardless, for scenario design purposes you can just claim the SOSUS control station was destroyed in a cruise missile strike at the beginning of the war...or maybe a daring Chinese spec ops raid sabotaged it? I'll definitely try this one again once you update it!

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 3:20:35 AM   
SunlitZelkova

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stww2

That was pretty much the exact same tactic I employed...it worked just as well.

I looked at the log. The bottom fixed array detected me pretty much as soon as the scenario started, although, unlike in KungPao's playthrough, the SSN classification didn't come for another 44 minutes.

IIRC, Dimitris mentioned in another thread that ambient noise doesn't currently affect sonar performance...that could explain the Bottom Fixed Array's effectiveness here. Or maybe it really is that effective...which would be a somewhat reassuring thought, except it strikes me as too good be true. Regardless, for scenario design purposes you can just claim the SOSUS control station was destroyed in a cruise missile strike at the beginning of the war...or maybe a daring Chinese spec ops raid sabotaged it? I'll definitely try this one again once you update it!


I too was destroyed before getting too far.

I think a cyber attack is the best choice for the explanation of no SOSUS. The SDF has few cyber warfare units, while the real life SOSUS station that controls the sensors off Tokyo is located near Yokosuka Naval Base, so SpecOps would be too dangerous and the station would fall within the Patriot battery that protects the naval base, making a cruise missile strike likely to fail.

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 5:32:37 AM   
Randomizer


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First try, slow and deep, killed at time 1-hour 7-minutes in. Next attempt 58-minutes and 23-seconds into the mission and I was killed by a P1, which dropped a single torpedo right on top of my boat. Saved at that point and opened the save in the editor and it seems likely that the Japanese SOSUS array provided the detection, classification and localization of the boat. I would submit that the SOSUS net makes the scenario unwinnable for the player. SunlitZelkova's suggestion to remove the fixed array might give the Player a chance.

Defensive minefields could replace the SOSUS to make life "interesting" or not.

-C

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 12:00:26 PM   
SunlitZelkova

 

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The problem with defensive minefields is that the JSDF does not possess any naval mines or minelaying equipment. The US would have to lay mines with B-52s, but that would probably mean endangering Japanese shipping.

They might accede to such a suggestion from the US, but it would definitely give Japanese leadership some pause.

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 4:32:40 PM   
Randomizer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SunlitZelkova

The problem with defensive minefields is that the JSDF does not possess any naval mines or minelaying equipment...

I did not know that, thanks.

-C

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Post #: 8
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 4:48:13 PM   
Gunner98

 

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quote:

for scenario design purposes you can just claim the SOSUS control station was destroyed in a cruise missile strike at the beginning of the war.


Or hit by a cyber strike.

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 10:14:53 PM   
BeirutDude


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quote:

IIRC, Dimitris mentioned in another thread that ambient noise doesn't currently affect sonar performance


That is unfortunate and something I have long thought from my early submarine scenarios (Merry Christmas, 1985 and Halloween Horror, 1991). I mentioned it years ago when I did those and was told that ambient noise is modeled. Both were based on ambient noise masking the sub and I stated the subs were too easily detected.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
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I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 10:21:59 PM   
BeirutDude


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Latest Update Below

That said my playtest was much better, I wasn't killed until I was running on the convoy when an Alert ASW Strike Helio got me!

1. I went wide to the south in a sprint
2. played cat and mouse with the K-1 which I think I barely escape, an active buoy splashed about 1.5 miles away from me but I turned perpendicular to it and slipped away.
3. then sprinted and drifted until I reached the shipping lanes
4. Tucked up right under a tanker and used her as a mask to enter the bay
and just as I was about to leave the tanker and start my run on the convoy, BOOM!

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/25/2021 9:21:59 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 10:25:31 PM   
BeirutDude


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Tucked Under the Tanker




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 10:26:20 PM   
BeirutDude


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Zoomed in under the Tanker...




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 10:27:47 PM   
BeirutDude


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Sneaking past the Japanese Coast Guard Cutter patrolling the entrance...




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 14
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/6/2021 10:29:09 PM   
BeirutDude


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BOOM





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_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/7/2021 12:04:56 AM   
SunlitZelkova

 

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It looks like it is 11:00 AM local time. I am not sure if you have checked what the other side detected to find the problem, but both the P-1 and SH-60 are capable of detecting submerged subs from the air if it is shallow enough.

I know this from two tests I did awhile back-

1. Trying to sneak a Type 093B into the Seto Inland Sea to attack shipping off Osaka
2. Trying to sneak SDVs up to the coast of Okinawa. The P-1s detected them pretty far out

It might not be a major problem for this scenario, but if that does prove to be the case, you might want to consider changing the time to ensure the player will end up reaching the port at night (or at least has an opportunity to).

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/7/2021 11:00:09 AM   
SunlitZelkova

 

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Action Report-

I went to the right of the island in front of the bay (Oshima) and the transit to the bay was largely uneventful apart from a couple close sonobuoys. As I approached the bay I detected to Asagiri class destroyers. I saved, attempted to sneak past them, and was destroyed, so I went back and engaged them.

Also at that time I detected a few ships from the convoy and observed them running away from the torpedoes. I continued onwards after sinking the destroyers, but despite detecting civilian vessels out to the shore, I could not find the convoy. I stopped the boat completely, with still no sign of it. Only after surfacing and using the periscope did I realize I was only a few kilometers behind it, completely undetected.

I went after the USS Blue Ridge as the first target, followed by a dry bulk carrier and the USNS Alan Shepard. I also launched a missile at the USS Barry (Arleigh Burke class). I then quickly submerged and moved to avoid getting killed by an ASROC fired at the flaming datum contact the enemy presumably had. After the first torpedoes impacted and the lone missile had been shot down by the Burke, I went to periscope depth to make the second attack. None of the targets had been fully sunk, and although they had suffered heavy damage, there appeared to be little fire and flooding.

The next attack had torpedoes targeted at the three ships from before, but this time I used the missiles too. The torpedoes were fired off, while the missiles quickly slammed in their targets. It only took 1 missile to kill each ship, and as a result of firing multiple in case it took more than one (I forgot to check how much DP the missiles do) the missiles that had their targets already destroyed found new ones. One convoy vessel was hit, but the other two missiles ended up sinking civilian ships. The torpedoes did more damage, although I was destroyed before I could confirm whether I actually sank any of the targets or not.

I then got a bit greedy and decided to launch another salvo of missiles at the Alan Shepard before moving. After firing off the salvo, I then proceeded to submerge and move, but I was too late- the Barry had presumably already fired an ASROC. My boat was then promptly sunk.

I did not find any problems with the gameplay.

Attempting to go to the left of the island in front of the bay and sneak beneath the shipping (what BeirutDude did) results in destruction seemingly every time, as I tried that three times, and was destroyed three times. It would be interesting to know if anyone succeeded in using that route and/or tactic.

Given that the SOSUS sensors technically exist, I suggest adding something in the briefing about how the sensors have been disabled by a cyber attack, while also mentioning their potency. To give the 24 hour time limit more meaning and add suspense, you could have it mention that the PLA cyber units expect the SDF to recover from the cyber attack and have the sensors back on line when that deadline ends. Obviously the scenario just ends when the 24 hour limit is hit, and there would be no need to have the sensors teleport in or something, but for the player/sub commander it could add suspense, as failing to achieve the objectives by the end of the 24 hour limit would basically mean "they will find you and you will be destroyed no matter what you try do after that point". Such an outcome has been confirmed by people's tests of the earlier version of the scenario

< Message edited by SunlitZelkova -- 4/7/2021 11:03:31 AM >


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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/7/2021 3:33:58 PM   
Randomizer


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One way to do this might be to create Side SOSUS as neutral and then have it change posture to Friendly to Japan by event. A random time trigger with no notification puts the Player under a clock with an unknown duration. An estimate of the possible down time of the sensor array could be included in the brief.

-C

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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/7/2021 11:37:27 PM   
BeirutDude


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quote:

Given that the SOSUS sensors technically exist, I suggest adding something in the briefing about how the sensors have been disabled by a cyber attack, while also mentioning their potency. To give the 24 hour time limit more meaning and add suspense, you could have it mention that the PLA cyber units expect the SDF to recover from the cyber attack and have the sensors back on line when that deadline ends. Obviously the scenario just ends when the 24 hour limit is hit, and there would be no need to have the sensors teleport in or something, but for the player/sub commander it could add suspense, as failing to achieve the objectives by the end of the 24 hour limit would basically mean "they will find you and you will be destroyed no matter what you try do after that point". Such an outcome has been confirmed by people's tests of the earlier version of the scenario


Thanks for the Play test and a great report.

As to the quote above I love it and will add to the briefing!!!!!

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to SunlitZelkova)
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RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/7/2021 11:38:12 PM   
BeirutDude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

One way to do this might be to create Side SOSUS as neutral and then have it change posture to Friendly to Japan by event. A random time trigger with no notification puts the Player under a clock with an unknown duration. An estimate of the possible down time of the sensor array could be included in the brief.

-C


Cool idea!

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 20
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/8/2021 2:10:51 AM   
DESRON420

 

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While reading up on fixed sonar for my Baltic question elsewhere I discovered that the Russian Northern Fleet MGK-608M system was damaged by fishing trawlers in 2016 and remains out of commission because the Ministry of Defense refuses to spend the money to fix it. No hackers needed!

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mgk-608e.htm
https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/1098728385822580736

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Post #: 21
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/11/2021 12:53:42 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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Is anyone else finding that this scenario has trouble running at high speeds? It has a low AU count, but for me it barely seems to accelerate at the highest settings, with pulse times bouncing up over 500ms. Puzzling.

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Post #: 22
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/11/2021 4:04:13 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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PLAN

The east coast of the rugged Izu Peninsula is very steep, so I intend to head east between Niijima and Kozushima island, reach the coast of the peninsula, and turn north along the coast in the deep water there. Hopefully that will get me into the bay. I will then hunt across the bay from west to east. I’m contemplating a blind salvo of missiles to maybe clear out some lesser patrol craft, but that’s a complete gamble, so I’ll probably not do that except in emergency cases.


ACTION

At first there are a number of active sonobuoy contacts, but they seem to be too far away to detect us.

Around 11:30 we start picking up merchant traffic going in and out of the bay, and then occasional fishermen. These aren’t the merchants we’re looking for, so we continue.

First hostile contact comes with a coast-guard cutter at 15:30, but it has no sonar, so is no threat, and we pass it by.

Moving up the coast we find numerous fishermen, and then at 18:30, our operators hear a low-frequency sonar of some sort in the ‘first’ mouth of the bay, only 10 miles away. That’s alarming! A detection at that range is probable.

The captain orders an immediate rise to firing depth for a pair of Clubs, and as we clear the layer, we hear a second sonar adjacent to the first. Four missiles are fired, and we descend back into the layer, hearing explosions and breakup noises as we descend, and hurry away into the shallows between the little island of Hatsushima and the mainland. After a few miles we slow down and creep again, hearts in our throats.

As evening goes on we reach the inner end of the bay and start traversing west, but find nothing. We can hear fishermen from one side of the bay to the other, but nothing else. Is the convoy outside the bay? Puzzled, we turn cautiously southwards towards the area where we engaged the warships. Maybe they are closer to there?

Then, at 23:48, as we are creeping in the layer, there is a violent explosion without any warning, and our brave sub and noble sailors are destroyed.




AFTERMATH

Spies in the Japanese ministry of defence late reveal that the Barry had hear our creeping sub 7.5 miles away, and promptly dropped an ASROC on it. We had sunk two Asagiri destroyers earlier on, but the convoy was completely unharmed.

This is a tough one. The stationary Barry can hear a 5 knot creeper in the layer at 7.5 miles, and even a 2 knot creeper at 6.3 miles, before your sub can detect it in return. Surprisingly, the best tactic is a night-time periscope attack. Testing shows that if I had stuck up the scope shortly before they heard me I would have seen the convoy, and been able to engage. Unfortunately, I was afraid that I would be immediately detected by airborne radar in such close quarters, so I didn’t use the scope.

Fun all the same!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 23
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/11/2021 4:55:46 PM   
BeirutDude


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Nice report! Thank you!!!!

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 24
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/11/2021 11:07:38 PM   
schweggy

 

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So... here's how my attempt went with this scenario.

I'll note that I read Andrew's AAR and took the coast hugging approach. The layer was mostly between 250 and 500 feet. I stayed at 400 or so feet for the duration... basically "in the layer." It's a long slog up the coast at 5 kts, but more or less undetected. The pop-up periscope recons were quick... maybe 30 seconds or less. The "convoy" was displayed as a semi-regular formation that was not moving... so I decided to put some fish and missiles up their ass. Seemed to work...


Final score: 9000


SIDE: West
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x SH-60K Seahawk
1x Commercial Container Vessel - Feedermax [3,000 TEU, 30,000t DWT]
1x Commercial Container Vessel - Small Feeder [100 TEU, 5,750t DWT]
1x Commercial Dry-Bulk Carrier - Handysize [35,000t DWT]
1x Commercial Dry-Bulk Carrier - Small Handysize [25,000t DWT, Helo Deck]
1x Commercial LNG/LPG Tanker [18,000t DWT]
1x Commercial Tanker - Large Range 2 [150,000t DWT]
1x Commercial Tanker - Medium Range [40,000t DWT]
2x DD 151 Asagiri
1x T-AKE 1 Lewis and Clark
1x T-AKR 5051 Cape Ducato [Tombarra Class]


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
80x J/HQS-33B DICASS [AN/SSQ-62]
63x J/HQS-12 DIFAR
5x RIM-162A ESSM



SIDE: Biologics
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------



SIDE: Merchants
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------



SIDE: Fishing Fleet
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Commercial Fishing Boat [35m]


EXPENDITURES:
------------------



SIDE: PLAN





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 25
RE: PT: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-04-2021) - 4/14/2021 10:08:41 PM   
BeirutDude


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NICE!!!!!!!!

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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

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Post #: 26
RE: Updated: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-25-2021) - 4/25/2021 9:20:08 PM   
BeirutDude


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Updated 04-25-2021
Submitted 04-29-2021


1. Rebuilt to the latest C:MO Beta Version 1147.21 & Database: DB3000 v488 to take advantage of the new ASW algorithms
2. Added the Cyber-attack idea (Thanks) and the longer it takes to complete your mission the greater the chance the SOSUS comes back online.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/29/2021 11:36:22 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 27
RE: Updated: Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (04-25-2021) - 4/29/2021 11:35:53 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 2446
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
Just got a Major Victory on this one and think it is ready. One tweak I did make today was to turn off "Collective Responsibility" for the sub.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 28
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Mods and Scenarios >> Sagami Bay Convoy Raid, 2022 (Submitted) Page: [1]
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