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[rule clarification] Command Efficiency

 
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[rule clarification] Command Efficiency - 4/1/2021 11:33:47 PM   
Bamilus


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This is maybe a nit, but I really like the UI and want to understand it fully. 36.5.2 in manual states that units are in green using Command Efficiency button if they are in immediate command range and dark green if the HQ they report to is also in command range. Additionally, the colors can be impacted by HQ's that are over command capacity. In the attached photo you can see on the right there's one 17th army corp that is highlighted dark green, but the one on the left of the pocket is just green (bright green but manual describes it as "green"). Yet both HQ's (circled in blue on photo) are 8:9 command capacity, in the same hex, all units under them are within 5 hexes, and both corp HQ's are within 17th army command range (9 hexes away) and all other HQ's down the chain are in range.

The only difference is one commander of the dark green efficiency corp is 4.4 average rating and the other is 4. But based on the manual I assumed the command efficiency button didn't take into account leader ratings (however, command quality does).

Am I interpreting this right and can anyone explain why one of these corps would be dark green and the other wouldn't?

Thanks




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 5/13/2021 8:26:36 PM >


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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 12:06:51 AM   
Joel Billings


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Attaching a save would make it easier to try to figure out.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 12:11:37 AM   
Bamilus


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My save is just above 2MB and .zip and .rar'ing it doesn't get it below 2MB to upload. I can share you a dropbox or something else but let me know

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 6:15:56 AM   
Nix77

 

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I think there's something weird going on with the Command Efficiency overlay. It is clearly not working as the manual suggests. Seems like it's taking some factors into account that should be only considered in Command Quality view?

Efficiency should be a clear cut map view of command structure:

-Bright Green: Command Structure OK and in range
-Green: Closest command ok, range to higher HQs lacking or overloaded (only showing for HQs)
-Yellow: Range to closest OK, wrong level HQ (in this case the range in higher structure or overload is probably not worth noting)
-Orange: Range to closest not OK, command structure OK
-Red: Range to closest not OK, wrong command structure or overloaded

Don't mix anything random here and this will be a useful tool. It's less informative if we throw in too many variables. With above it'd be easy to see in range units (BGreen/Green/Yellow), out of range units (Orange/Red) and finally units with command structure problem (Yellow/Red).

Command quality can give a mix of different parameters and be more vague what it's representing.

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/2/2021 6:52:14 AM >

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 6:49:04 AM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

My save is just above 2MB and .zip and .rar'ing it doesn't get it below 2MB to upload. I can share you a dropbox or something else but let me know


Bamilus I think I know what causes those dark greens, try moving the HQs higher in the chain a bit closer.

It's also a bit weird that you can have a corps operating out of army range and still have bright green Command Efficiency...

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/2/2021 6:56:10 AM >

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 6:56:04 AM   
jlbhung

 

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I think units in bright green means they are both within 5 hexes of it Corps HQ and 12 hexes of its Army HQ. Those in dark green are within 5 hexes of Corps HQ but more than 12 hexes from the Army HQ. You may count the number of hexes to verify.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 7:44:10 AM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

I think units in bright green means they are both within 5 hexes of it Corps HQ and 12 hexes of its Army HQ. Those in dark green are within 5 hexes of Corps HQ but more than 12 hexes from the Army HQ. You may count the number of hexes to verify.


That is correct for units, but for HQ level this doesn't seem to be the case. I have bright green HQs operating out of range. It would good to have this view represent something concrete, not just a measure of several different things. The HQ colors could change with overloading and range to commanding HQ, but I think the unit overlay color could be clearly defined.

Also there's a slight issue with updating the efficiency. If I overload an HQ by breaking down a unit to regiments, the HQ color status is updated only when I click on it.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 12:33:04 PM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

My save is just above 2MB and .zip and .rar'ing it doesn't get it below 2MB to upload. I can share you a dropbox or something else but let me know


Bamilus I think I know what causes those dark greens, try moving the HQs higher in the chain a bit closer.

It's also a bit weird that you can have a corps operating out of army range and still have bright green Command Efficiency...


Both corps are within 9 hexes. Command range is 15, so they are well within range. Besides, both are on the same hex, so if they were out of range why would one corp's divisions be dark green and the other wouldnt be? (neither are overloaded with command capacity). Moving them did nothing. I did move 17th army closer and it made the dark green divisions bright green, which makes zero sense to me (it's still within range of Army Group South and AGS is within range of OKH).

I definitely agree with you that something else not mentioned in the manual is coming into play, here. Or so it seems.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/2/2021 12:38:15 PM >


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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 12:33:25 PM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

I think units in bright green means they are both within 5 hexes of it Corps HQ and 12 hexes of its Army HQ. Those in dark green are within 5 hexes of Corps HQ but more than 12 hexes from the Army HQ. You may count the number of hexes to verify.


This is incorrect. It should be 5 and 15 hexes, based on command range listed in chapter 21.11.4.

"The different types of HQs each have a different range over
which they can supply leadership modifications and assign
support squads.
High Command – 90 hexes
Army Group/Front – 45 hexes
Army – 15 hexes
Corps/Soviet Army after July 1941 – 5 hexes
Air Command – 90 hexes (note that if an air command is
within 90 hexes the modification for range (15.5.4) will not
take place and the air base will be treated as being 0 hexes
from the HQ)."

Also, you are wrong about the colors.

"Units that are in command range of their
immediate HQ and report to the level of HQ that is
expected (so an Army for the Soviets and Corps for the
Axis) are shown in green. If in turn that HQ is in range of its
next HQ in the chain this becomes a dark green."

It says "green" but I assume it means bright green since dark green is defined after. However, in the section on supply priority 36.5.3, "bright green" is the best and dark green is the second best. So I'm unsure if the manual is incorrect for command efficiency. And if the manual isn't incorrect, I recommend they change it so it's not confusing when switching between maps modes (i.e one colors should be used consistently).

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/2/2021 12:42:42 PM >


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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 12:47:20 PM   
jlbhung

 

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Bamilus, you are right about the number of hexes. My poor eye-sight often read 15 as 12 when looking at the screen.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 12:51:41 PM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

Bamilus, you are right about the number of hexes. My poor eye-sight often read 15 as 12 when looking at the screen.



No problem, just wanted to make sure I was correct as well. There's a different ranges for different things so I had to go back to check.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 12:54:23 PM   
jlbhung

 

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However, actually the counting of 15 hexes range is from the unit to the Army HQ, not from the Corps HQ.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 12:56:07 PM   
jlbhung

 

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... which appears to be different from the manual quoted

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 1:02:08 PM   
jlbhung

 

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I found the problem now. Previously, I opened a save file and tested by moving a Army HQ hex by hex, and the furthest unit turned dark green when the Army HQ moved to the 13th hex. I think this may be a bug.

Sorry for the confusion caused.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 2:00:25 PM   
joelmar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

However, actually the counting of 15 hexes range is from the unit to the Army HQ, not from the Corps HQ.

quote:

However, actually the counting of 15 hexes range is from the unit to the Army HQ, not from the Corps HQ.

(in reply to Bamilus)


For both WitE1 and WitE2, that's not how I read it.

If you select a corps HQ, you will see over the icon on the right hand pane the number of hexes to the Army HQ and if the range is respected (ex: 10/15)

So unless somebody more knowledgeable than me can correct me, I take it the 15 hexes is from Corps to Army HQs, and unit distance to Army is not relevent for the availability of Army support.


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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 2:12:35 PM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

However, actually the counting of 15 hexes range is from the unit to the Army HQ, not from the Corps HQ.

quote:

However, actually the counting of 15 hexes range is from the unit to the Army HQ, not from the Corps HQ.

(in reply to Bamilus)


For both WitE1 and WitE2, that's not how I read it.

If you select a corps HQ, you will see over the icon on the right hand pane the number of hexes to the Army HQ and if the range is respected (ex: 10/15)

So unless somebody more knowledgeable than me can correct me, I take it the 15 hexes is from Corps to Army HQs, and unit distance to Army is not relevent for the availability of Army support.



This is my understanding as well.

Here's my .sav if anyone smarter than me can help figure this out https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqs2cpise4b0dn1/t12%20post%20air.sav?dl=0

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/2/2021 2:19:37 PM >


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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 10:29:22 PM   
Joel Billings


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Thanks, got the save and with everyone's comments I was able to see that I had to move the army HQ within 12 hexes of each unit in order for it to flip to bright green. I can't explain this, so I'm going to bug it and ask Gary to look into it. There does look to be some kind of modifier having to do with the distance to the army HQ. Looks like we've given all of you a new tool to uncover our undocumented rules.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/2/2021 11:03:20 PM   
Joel Billings


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BTW, Gary is pretty sure that the trace is from the unit to the Army HQ when the unit is doing a command check, not the distance from the corps to the Army HQ. So you should keep your Army HQ within 15 of any units under it's command to max out. As for why the color changes at 12 hexes in this case, we'll have to wait for Gary to run it through the debugger to find out what's going on.

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RE: Command Efficiency - 4/3/2021 12:07:29 AM   
Bamilus


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Thanks Joel! I look forward to hearing what more you and Gary find out

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[rule clarification] RE: Command Efficiency - 5/13/2021 8:26:04 PM   
Joel Billings


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I finally got the clarification on the rules that I think explains what was being seen here. It is as follows:

The Command Range Modifier is slightly different than as explained in the manual. When determining the modifier, instead of subtracting 5 from the range before determining the modifier, you subtract the following:
Corps HQ – 5
Army – 10
Army Group/Front – 15
High command - 20


This explains how you can move the army HQ closer to those dark green units, and they will turn bright green. Basically when the Army is 14 hexes away, they suffer a 2 penalty ((14-4)/2), and once down to 12 hexes it's only a 1 penalty. Hope this helps.

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RE: [rule clarification] RE: Command Efficiency - 5/14/2021 5:01:34 PM   
Bamilus


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Thanks Joel. I appreciate you following up on this and clarification. So is this map mode basically to highlight where units are getting distance penalties for command checks?

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 5/14/2021 5:02:11 PM >


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RE: [rule clarification] RE: Command Efficiency - 9/8/2021 6:58:30 PM   
loudscott

 

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This is pretty confusing with respect to the verbiage in the manual. I searched the forum for a thread related to "Command Efficiency" because I had the exact same quandary as the OP here. I would like to suggest that the Living Manual be updated to reflect this better explanation of the overlay (at a minimum). The living manual was my first stop but I see no difference from the original manual.

My 2 cents

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RE: [rule clarification] RE: Command Efficiency - 9/8/2021 9:07:03 PM   
Joel Billings


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Thanks, I've sent this to Roger so he can be sure to get it into the next living manual.

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