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Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 10:55:47 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1346
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: online
An ASLholic went to rehab:

https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com/2020/07/farewell-advanced-squad-leader.html

The interesting part is how he realised that ASL is not a good simulation of tactical WWII warfare at all. The surprise! I barely scratched it and I could see many of the things "discovered" here: no platoons, no chain of command, leaders able to roam around the battlefield and support everybody ("Who is this guy who just showed up?" doesn't exists in ASL) and so on.

(Let's not get me started about the obsession of counting factors or the one for "balance" - because it totally simulates the chaos of low-level engagements in WWII... )

I always felt that ASL's beauty is its being "a world in a box": the simulation of an alternate reality where WWII was fought by our little men and vehicles under different rules, paired with the challenge of planning vs. the unexpected. No wonder that the pendulum of how ASLer judge the game swings so broadly. "This is not realistic!" can be the answer to a rules-variant proposal, but when you point out the unrealistic elements woven in the very fabric of the rules then it becomes "just a game!"

How this guy (from what he wrote) A) Never realised the above in years, and B) Now that he did he can't still enjoy ASL just fine is beyond me.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
Post #: 1
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 11:22:24 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13140
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
Welcome to real life.

All of these are games. To some extent, they may be realistic but nothing actually is as good as putting boots on the ground and playing.

A lot of the leader's value should have been the rapport with their men, they should get a bonus or malus depending upon the leader. A second lieutenant (butter bar) should never get a bonus.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 4/1/2021 1:19:30 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 2
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 11:54:03 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1346
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Welcome to real life.

All of these are games. To some extent, they may be realistic but nothing actually is as good as putting boots on the ground and playing.

A lot of the leaders value should have been the rapport with their men, they should get a bonus or malus depending upon the leader. A second lieutenant (butter bar) should never get a bonus.

I always wondered why a game that agonises about the impact of snowy ground on molotov cocktails never developed rules for a correct chain of command.

Now it is impossible, of course. Or, at the very least, you would need to start a separate chain of scenarios for "ASL OOB" - since the old ones would be unplayable. But why, at the very least, "platoon coherence" rules weren't considered when SL switched to ASL?

But of course we are talking about a game where you can organise and launch a "human wave" in a few minutes of game time - and resolve it in one hour and half of real time, so...

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 3
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 12:49:02 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1658
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

An ASLholic went to rehab:

https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com/2020/07/farewell-advanced-squad-leader.html

The interesting part is how he realised that ASL is not a good simulation of tactical WWII warfare at all. The surprise! I barely scratched it and I could see many of the things "discovered" here: no platoons, no chain of command, leaders able to roam around the battlefield and support everybody ("Who is this guy who just showed up?" doesn't exists in ASL) and so on.

(Let's not get me started about the obsession of counting factors or the one for "balance" - because it totally simulates the chaos of low-level engagements in WWII... )

I always felt that ASL's beauty is its being "a world in a box": the simulation of an alternate reality where WWII was fought by our little men and vehicles under different rules, paired with the challenge of planning vs. the unexpected. No wonder that the pendulum of how ASLer judge the game swings so broadly. "This is not realistic!" can be the answer to a rules-variant proposal, but when you point out the unrealistic elements woven in the very fabric of the rules then it becomes "just a game!"

How this guy (from what he wrote) A) Never realised the above in years, and B) Now that he did he can't still enjoy ASL just fine is beyond me.


Aaaaawesome read. Thanks for providing that. The veteran ASLer frankly has no defense for the observations :)

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 4
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 1:31:32 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4659
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
I always wondered why a game that agonises about the impact of snowy ground on molotov cocktails never developed rules for a correct chain of command.

My personal favorite are the rules about how to treat artillery fire against infantry which is climbing cliffs (depending on where the fire is coming from). Because that happens a lot, LOL.

But actually I like ASL and am trying to get back into it. Not because I consider it particularly realistic, but because it can portray such a huge variety of situations and units (cavalry, motorcycles, motor-torpedo boats, every possible Allied/Axis minor ally, etc etc). You can literally do anything with it.

And since I'll be playing myself, I can can the rules to fit...adding some kind of platoon integrity rule would be a good place to start!

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 5
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 2:23:01 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13140
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
I always wondered why a game that agonises about the impact of snowy ground on molotov cocktails never developed rules for a correct chain of command.

My personal favorite are the rules about how to treat artillery fire against infantry which is climbing cliffs (depending on where the fire is coming from). Because that happens a lot, LOL.

But actually I like ASL and am trying to get back into it. Not because I consider it particularly realistic, but because it can portray such a huge variety of situations and units (cavalry, motorcycles, motor-torpedo boats, every possible Allied/Axis minor ally, etc etc). You can literally do anything with it.

And since I'll be playing myself, I can can the rules to fit...adding some kind of platoon integrity rule would be a good place to start!


So you, here on a public forum, admit that you play with yourself?

But does ASL portray what happens to the water skiers when the mortar shills start landing around them?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 6
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 2:57:37 PM   
rommel222

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 9/21/2015
Status: offline
Greetings RFalvo69,
Very interesting and thanks for posting.
I recently tried the ASL stater kits 1, 2 & 3 after having sold my SL and ASL game collection almost 20 years ago.
After 3 months of playing I gave up and sold them off.

Much prefer Lock n Load Tactical digital (and boardgame versions) on steam and Combat Mission 1st generation and 2nd generation.
Waiting for Valor & Victory and 2nd Front

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 3:22:27 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1346
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

But actually I like ASL and am trying to get back into it. Not because I consider it particularly realistic, but because it can portray such a huge variety of situations and units (cavalry, motorcycles, motor-torpedo boats, every possible Allied/Axis minor ally, etc etc). You can literally do anything with it.


Thanks to the electronic manual I'm finally able to... well... read it, and I can sense the wonder. Having said that, I loved Dungeons & Dragons 3/3.5E. It was full of wonder and options. Many consider it "maybe too much complex" but I ran a lot of memorable adventures using that ruleset. But I never considered D&D as the simulation of a fantasy world - more like a way to "convey" the idea of what was happening, what each character's talents were, and so on, in a heroic setting (if you want realism, in Call of Cthulhu a single gunshot can kill your character - no dark entity from beyond required).

So, yes, I can have fun with ASL as the D&D of WWII - as long as it is clear is not WWII. Because the paradox is that when in D&D the characters meet a Barlog, what happens is not the simulation of real characters meeting a real Balrog...

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 8
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 6:01:13 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1658
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline
I love Squad Leader.

I'm in recovery I think.

I'm not 20 anymore either.

I'd rather play ASL. I wish my son was a wargamer (it's why I had him, well, ok, not really).

But it looks like a lot of my wants are becoming what I'm going to get whether I like it or nots.

Oh well.

At least Tigers on the Hunt looks like Squad Leader. At least LnLtactical digital is a good design. And we have Valor and Victory and Second Front to look forward to.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 9
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 7:25:23 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4659
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
But does ASL portray what happens to the water skiers when the mortar shills start landing around them?

Well, not water-skiers exactly, but IIRC the module which adds torpedo boats does have rather detailed treatment of the effect of various kinds of fire on MTBs' crew and passengers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
Thanks to the electronic manual I'm finally able to... well... read it, and I can sense the wonder.

Yes, the electronic rulebook is very helpful. And a sold all of my remaining ASL paper stuff a couple of years ago and now play VASL only. Although frankly I spend most of my time reading the rules, and very little time playing...

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
...more like a way to "convey" the idea of what was happening, what each character's talents were, and so on, in a heroic setting.

This is a good description of how I view ASL. But for all of its faults, I'm pretty confident that it will never be matched in terms of scope and flexibility. I have generally used ASL to play out battles occurring in an operational level metagame (with kind of a role-playing angle, with persistent leaders, etc) and for this kind of thing ASL is unmatched. Actually Steel Panthers is a close second, and I am hoping to be able to switch between ASL and Steel Panthers when playing tactical battles. Maybe someday Steel Tigers and Second Front will come close, but not holding my breath. Tigers on the Hunt was a disappointment.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 4/1/2021 7:26:20 PM >

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 10
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 7:46:01 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6144
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online
ASL is and has always been an experience, its a social game, its the only game system that has survived since 1985 and is still being played and enjoyed by thousands. Its not and has never claimed to be the most realistic simulation. It is however a very playable, powerful and fun game. The social aspect is what makes ASL ASL and the way its played is it plays out more like a story, scenario after scenario.

Its not a "realistic simulation" but what ASL does do it does very well.

I have played ASL since either 1986 or 7. On and off over the years. When two fellows (have never met a female ASL'er, even at Octoberfest) sit down to game of ASL its a classic story of a tactical war game social experience that both fellows will remember for a lifetime and in general they become friends for life, even if they don't cross paths for 20 years and then sit down and play again.



_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 11
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 8:37:36 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1658
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline
My claim to fame.

I'm the one that started the idea of using ASL counters for forum avatars. Yep, that was ME. I've played ASL from the beginning. Squad Leader from the begininng.

Alas, I've never been to any form of game convention. I've never been to a concert before either.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 12
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 8:40:49 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4659
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
I've never been to a concert before either.


(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 13
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/1/2021 9:33:07 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 6848
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
One interesting comment found on the above link





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 14
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/2/2021 1:05:40 AM   
Will_L

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: NYC-Queens
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

My claim to fame.

I'm the one that started the idea of using ASL counters for forum avatars. Yep, that was ME. I've played ASL from the beginning. Squad Leader from the begininng.

Alas, I've never been to any form of game convention. I've never been to a concert before either.


I'm surprised that you haven't but that might be a good thing. A few years ago a wargaming friend gave me a birthday card that had a drawing of a bunch of guys wearing too small t-shirts and jeans bending over things and inside he'd crossed out the Plumbers in Plumbers Convention and written Wargamers and "Say no to crack!" It was hilarious and deadly accurate, wargaming conventions are rife with wargamer crack.

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 15
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/2/2021 8:29:42 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1346
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
I always wondered why a game that agonises about the impact of snowy ground on molotov cocktails never developed rules for a correct chain of command.

My personal favorite are the rules about how to treat artillery fire against infantry which is climbing cliffs (depending on where the fire is coming from). Because that happens a lot, LOL.

But actually I like ASL and am trying to get back into it. Not because I consider it particularly realistic, but because it can portray such a huge variety of situations and units (cavalry, motorcycles, motor-torpedo boats, every possible Allied/Axis minor ally, etc etc). You can literally do anything with it.

And since I'll be playing myself, I can can the rules to fit...adding some kind of platoon integrity rule would be a good place to start!


So you, here on a public forum, admit that you play with yourself?


You mean I can post my joke "Why Matrix World in Flames reminds me of my sex life"? I really want to!

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 16
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/2/2021 9:13:07 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 45032
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
I've never been to a concert before either.


warspite1




_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 17
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/2/2021 11:41:36 AM   
ezzler

 

Posts: 862
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
Stopped with ASL a long while back. Sold the lot.
Years later rebought the starter sets. Good fun, but sold them off too. Someone recommended Old School Tactical as an improvement on ASL. A faster playing, easier set up, less rules dense version.

I hate it. Two games played. Two games Sucked, I cannot see the attraction in it at all.
Thinking about it, why is it still on my shelf? I'm not going to ever play it again. It was that bad.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 18
RE: Farewell ASL - 4/6/2021 6:19:43 PM   
RG11B19D

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 4/20/2020
Status: offline
Looking forward to "Second Front" on Steam. Check it out. Slated for release TBA.

Quote from Steam.
"Second Front is an accessible WWII turn-based tactical game with more than 40 infantry units and 200 tanks, vehicles and guns. It has all the depth of a paper wargame and the ease of a computer simulation. Campaign, scenarios and a complete editor make it an infinite tactical sandbox experience."

(in reply to ezzler)
Post #: 19
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