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SS Units - 3/27/2021 11:43:05 PM   
Templer_12


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• How were they modeled?
• What are their strengths?
• What makes them different from regular troops?
• ???
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RE: SS Units - 3/27/2021 11:54:50 PM   
fritzfarlig


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try start to read the historic background

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS



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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 12:22:48 AM   
Templer_12


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I am interested in how they are modeled in the game.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 12:27:27 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

• How were they modeled?
• What are their strengths?
• What makes them different from regular troops?
• ???


As per the manual they get a morale boost which increases as time goes on (+5 in 41; +10 in 42; +15 from 43 onwards)

I think they tend to have stronger TOEs also - just as an example a '43a PzGren Div' has 73 Stugs/Marders and 14.8k men in total whereas a "43e SS PzGren Div" has 18 Wespe/Hummels; 33 Stugs/Marders; 51 Panther tanks and 17k men in total

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 3/28/2021 12:28:10 AM >

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 12:30:20 AM   
Searry

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

I am interested in how they are modeled in the game.


The elite SS have a higher than normal NM so they really are the elite since they can get more easily into the 90 morale mark which is significant.

Later you get SS Hqs which use SS generals, some of which are good.

Late war, as was in history, you get more and more worse and worse SS divisions which were mostly conscripts or foreigners.
But also, many of the elite SS divisions have really powerful TOEs and there are a lot of these divisions. None rival the GD though.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 3:04:15 AM   
Steelers708

 

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I was disappointed to see that the late SS Panzer and Pzgrenadier divisions all use the same respective SS Pz & SS Pzgr model, as far as I can tell, which means that the Totenkopf doesn't get to keep her Tiger Is and the Nordland doesn't have her Panthers, as they historically did.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 4:05:51 AM   
Great_Ajax


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It would be extremely difficult to have a separate OB entry for every division in the German Army during the entire war. Some compromises have to be made.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

I was disappointed to see that the late SS Panzer and Pzgrenadier divisions all use the same respective SS Pz & SS Pzgr model, as far as I can tell, which means that the Totenkopf doesn't get to keep her Tiger Is and the Nordland doesn't have her Panthers, as they historically did.



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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 4:57:37 AM   
Steelers708

 

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I wouldn't expect it for every division but for the odd one it wouldn't take much doing, and would add a bit of historical flavour, much as I suspect that the GD doesn't become a generic Pzgr/Panzer division.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 5:32:32 AM   
Sardaukar


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What's with fascination about Waffen-SS?

Read book of Otto Carius Tigers in Mud, for perspective.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 11:00:15 AM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

What's with fascination about Waffen-SS?

Read book of Otto Carius Tigers in Mud, for perspective.



What's not to be fasinated with about the SS? A pesudo army within an army with its orgins in the bodyguard of Adolf Hitler, designed as a party political warmachine, expanding first to include fantical Nazihardliners, to concentration camp guards and regular policemen, given special treatment [And causing huge logistical problems as a result] that faught with fantatism in some cases, [Including for example, Elements of the 12th SS fighting to the last bullet against white candian soliders] and slowly morphing over the war under the power hungry grasp of Himmerler as he saught to take any means to expand and size control of the army, until the party elite was forign volunteers, conscripts and convicted criminals.

An organisation that had a strong reputation within Germany at the time [Although strong good or strong bad depending on whom you ask] that participated in some of the key battles of the war [Barberossa/Normandy/Kursk/Berlin] and huge implications for its members post war.

I'm curious as to why for 'Perspective' you'd recommend the post war memoirs of a German soldier - Someone whom like everyone else, had the desire to dump all the dirt on the SS, much like Gudarian or Mainstine 'It wasn't the regular army, it was the SS!' Given that many members of the regular army rotated through the Waffen SS, and regular formations [and even Luffwaffe formations] were just as capable of committing war crimes.

Everything about the SS is fasinating.

That said, I disagree with the upscaling of the moral post 1941 - While earlier SS formations did tend to have a higher espirit de corps [Though I would question this so much with Tokenkof, whose earlier performances were not exactly great] by 1941 already this is pretty blurred. The SS's excellent combat performance typically came down to their substantially better ToEs, and the fact they [That is the SS Panzer formations] were a priority for replacements.

Given ToE and replacements are already seperately factored into the CV value, I'm not sold we need to improve them again.

I'm also not sure why the poor 4th SS gets left out of the moral boost - My understanding is that they had a better moral than concentration camp guards, but there performance early way isn't spectular because they wern't motorized.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 12:19:03 PM   
ObeseMonkey

 

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They are interesting, if rather depressing and dark, to read about. It was my understanding that there formations varied wildly in abilities? I can’t remember the name but one unit involved in the attempt to take Murmansk was particularly poor I believe. The SS tended to take higher casualties than their army counterparts too, which Von Bock had predicted as a result of their training being inadequate.
One can’t ignore an account by the army just because of historical grievances. It’s certainly true the SS (especially those non-combat police units) consistently made it difficult for those trying to govern occupied territories, and irritated the regular army. Kube had many complaints, that are a bit too graphic to mention here. They are mentioned in Alan Clark’s ‘Barbarossa’. As far as I’m aware Tigers in the Mud is as accurate as any primary account. So long as one understands where bias might exist. It is important to be careful where one reads about the SS, to get a balanced view. Especially since some works glorify them and ignore the fact that most (if not all) their formations carried out the worst crimes against civilians.

I agree though that from the little I’ve read there performance seems linked to the equipment they received, and possibly the fact they are volunteer based and not conscripted.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 1:20:05 PM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ObeseMonkey


I agree though that from the little I’ve read there performance seems linked to the equipment they received, and possibly the fact they are volunteer based and not conscripted.



The volunteer basis was only relatively early in the war. By the end of the war they were as conscripted as the regular army, is my understanding. Hence why I am slightly quizzical about the moral bonus they recieve steadily going up as the war goes on.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 1:52:20 PM   
Hanny


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SS fans will be interested in the latest research in 2 SS Panzer losses during citadel to Kharkov by B Wheatley, online for free for a short time at tandfonline before it becomes a book you have to pay for.He found a new rather important document.

In game you should see the extra equipment and manpower they have imbedded in the TOE, editor may be the best place to look to see where all the extra stuff went, more Machine guns, more AFV in equivalent platoon etc.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/28/2021 2:03:30 PM >


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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 2:38:30 PM   
Denniss

 

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Having more or bigger tanks than comparable units should be worth a specific OB path. I did so for Totenkopf in WitE1 but probably not for Nordland.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 5:44:01 PM   
Steelers708

 

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The Waffen SS didn't have priority for replacements it was allowed around 2% of the annual draft plus any volunteers, this is why they had to resort to recruiting large numbers of Volksdeutsche who were either volunteers(sometimes forced), draftees or in some cases forced transfers from e.g. the Hungarian Army. Later in the war just like other Heer Pz divisions the 'elite' SS Pz divisions received large numbers of untrained excess Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine replacements which partly explains their poor performances in places like the Ardennes and Hungary.

As to equipment yes Waffen SS units were generally bigger than their Heer counterparts but that is due to the fact that they were under the SSFHA for organisation and training etc. As to the actual equipment they received they didn't generally receive anything that the Heer units didn't receive and in most cases e.g. StG44s, Tigers, Panthers etc they more often than not received them after Heer units received them.

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 6:34:35 PM   
amatteucci

 

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In Chris Lawrence's monumental (1600+ pages) book "Kursk", there's an appendix devoted to the comparison of the relative performance of the SS Panzerkorps (Waffen-SS) and the XLVIII Panzerkorps (Heer).

Lawrence applied Dupuy Institute's TNDM model for quantitative prediction of the results of combat and, comparing the model's results with historical data, found that the XLVIII Panzerkorps advanced further than the model predicted it should, while suffering less casualties than predicted, while the SS Panzerkorps advanced less, while suffering more casualties. The two scored equally on their capability to inflict casualties.

So, at least in this case, it seems that élite Waffen-SS armoured units didn't perform significantly better that their regular army equivalents (they actually performed slightly worse).

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 6:44:23 PM   
Steelers708

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

SS fans will be interested in the latest research in 2 SS Panzer losses during citadel to Kharkov by B Wheatley, online for free for a short time at tandfonline before it becomes a book you have to pay for.He found a new rather important document.

In game you should see the extra equipment and manpower they have imbedded in the TOE, editor may be the best place to look to see where all the extra stuff went, more Machine guns, more AFV in equivalent platoon etc.

quote:

2 SS Panzer losses during citadel to Kharkov by B Wheatley


There is, as far as I can see, absolutely nothing new in Wheatley's article that hasn't appeared in other books over the last 10-20 years or so or in readily available NARA and BA-MA documents.

As to his, and I quote, "For the first time as a result of a recent archival discovery this article is able to reveal the true number of armoured fighting vehicles (AFV – tanks, assault guns and tank destroyers) losses the II SS Panzer Korps sustained during Operation Citadel (5–16.7.1943).4" to which the footnote 4 refers to NARA Roll T312-R1483 AOK 6, 1a, KTB 9, Zustandsberichte, Wochenmeldung über Panzer und Sturmgeschülzlage Stand 1.8.43 (written 6.8.43), well it may be a new archival discovery for him but I've had that NARA roll on my PC for the last 5 years and I know some people who have had it longer than that.


< Message edited by Steelers708 -- 3/28/2021 6:45:25 PM >

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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 6:59:29 PM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

The Waffen SS didn't have priority for replacements it was allowed around 2% of the annual draft plus any volunteers, this is why they had to resort to recruiting large numbers of Volksdeutsche who were either volunteers(sometimes forced), draftees or in some cases forced transfers from e.g. the Hungarian Army. Later in the war just like other Heer Pz divisions the 'elite' SS Pz divisions received large numbers of untrained excess Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine replacements which partly explains their poor performances in places like the Ardennes and Hungary.

As to equipment yes Waffen SS units were generally bigger than their Heer counterparts but that is due to the fact that they were under the SSFHA for organisation and training etc. As to the actual equipment they received they didn't generally receive anything that the Heer units didn't receive and in most cases e.g. StG44s, Tigers, Panthers etc they more often than not received them after Heer units received them.



Given the small inital size of the SS, 2% isn't as bad as it sounds.

I must take issue with your comment regarding equipment then, proportionally the SS had a signifant overstock in Tigers. This is concentrated force. If am remembering correctly the only Heer unit with organic tigers was the GD. We have SS Divisions given equal priority - Not counting the SS Tiger Units, which again given the tiny size of the SS compared to the heer, gives them significant proportionate priority for 'prestige items'.

I don't think any attempt to argue that the SS Panzer divisions were given low priority for replacement equipment holds any water, given the number of times they were rebuilt at the expense of army divisions. There's a reason it was the 6th SS Panzer army at the battle of the buldge - Almost all the SS Formations had basically been destroyed in Normandy, yet they were prioritised to recieve significant numbers of scarce equipment, including King Tigers.

I certainly am not disputing their combat performance however - Indeed my entire point is I think they're treated too generously by the game, being given the historic ToE Boost, but also an excessive moral boost I don't see a justification for late war.


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RE: SS Units - 3/28/2021 10:17:49 PM   
Steelers708

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdmiralHalsey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

The Waffen SS didn't have priority for replacements it was allowed around 2% of the annual draft plus any volunteers, this is why they had to resort to recruiting large numbers of Volksdeutsche who were either volunteers(sometimes forced), draftees or in some cases forced transfers from e.g. the Hungarian Army. Later in the war just like other Heer Pz divisions the 'elite' SS Pz divisions received large numbers of untrained excess Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine replacements which partly explains their poor performances in places like the Ardennes and Hungary.

As to equipment yes Waffen SS units were generally bigger than their Heer counterparts but that is due to the fact that they were under the SSFHA for organisation and training etc. As to the actual equipment they received they didn't generally receive anything that the Heer units didn't receive and in most cases e.g. StG44s, Tigers, Panthers etc they more often than not received them after Heer units received them.



Given the small inital size of the SS, 2% isn't as bad as it sounds.

I must take issue with your comment regarding equipment then, proportionally the SS had a signifant overstock in Tigers. This is concentrated force. If am remembering correctly the only Heer unit with organic tigers was the GD. We have SS Divisions given equal priority - Not counting the SS Tiger Units, which again given the tiny size of the SS compared to the heer, gives them significant proportionate priority for 'prestige items'.

I don't think any attempt to argue that the SS Panzer divisions were given low priority for replacement equipment holds any water, given the number of times they were rebuilt at the expense of army divisions. There's a reason it was the 6th SS Panzer army at the battle of the buldge - Almost all the SS Formations had basically been destroyed in Normandy, yet they were prioritised to recieve significant numbers of scarce equipment, including King Tigers.

I certainly am not disputing their combat performance however - Indeed my entire point is I think they're treated too generously by the game, being given the historic ToE Boost, but also an excessive moral boost I don't see a justification for late war.




Whilst in 1943 it is true that the 3 'premier' SS divisions received a Tiger Kompanie and only the GD of the Heer received one that doesn't mean that the SS had priority over replacements and don't forget the Heer had several SPz Abteilungen by then, it should also be remembered that the very first Tiger Is went to the Heer and not the Waffen SS.

You also have to remember that the LSSAH and DR would eventually lose their Tiger Kompanie as the 3 sSS Pz Abteilungen were formed as Korps assets, whilst the GD would not only keep her own organic Tiger Komp. but it would be expanded into a full Abteilung eventually becoming the III./Pz Regt. GD. The GD would keep this III./Abt until December 1944 when the PzKorps GD was formed and it was removed to become a Korps asset of the Pzkorps GD.

The Totenkopf was the only division of the four named above to keep her Tiger Kompanie until the end of the war, but even then, they were not officially authorised to have them after September 1944 and as such received no further replacements.

As to the Tiger II the very first unit to receive any, actually the first 5 of the production line, was the 1./schwere Panzerjaeger Kompanie(FKL) of the Pz Lehr division which received them in March 1944, whilst the second unit to receive any was the Heer's sPz Abt.503 who received 12 in June 1944 and 14 in July 1944. The next unit to receive Tiger IIs was sPz Abt.501 who received 31 during the first two weeks of July 1944 followed by sPz Abt.505 who had 6 shipped to them on the 26th July. The first Waffen SS unit to receive any Tiger IIs was sSS Pz Abt.101 who received 14 in August 1944.

A similar story can be found with the Panther where the first ones were given to the Heer and not the Waffen SS where of course they went into action at Kursk with Pz Abt. 51 & 52. As to the post Kursk Panther Abteilungen at the same time that the LSSAH & DR Panther Abt. were formed 5 Heer divisions also had their Panther Abt formed. When it comes to the divisional Panther Abt by the time that the LSSAH & DR Panthers were in action there were also 4 Heer Panther abt. in action and by September 1944 when the 7 Waffen SS Panther Abt were finally in all in action there were 13 Heer Panther units.

Only one Waffen SS unit had Tiger IIs tactically attached to it during the Ardennes offensive and that was the LSSAH which had sSS Pz Abt.501 tactically attached to it as it's II Abteilung. Now the fact that it was attached as it's II Abt proves that the Waffen SS divisions didn't have priority for replacements.

If indeed the LSSAH had priority for replacements then it would have had a full, or as near to full, complement of tanks for the offensive that is 109 Pzkpfw IV and 79 Panthers that it was authorized, instead on the eve of the offensive it only had 33 Pzkpfw IVs and 33 Panthers.

Now for a division with 'so called' priority for replacements going into a major offensive it should have been fully re-equipped but the LSSAH received just 34 Pzkpfw IVs and 38 Panthers in October 1944 it would not receive any further replacements until January 1945 when it received just 11 Pzkpfw IVs. The division was also short of other equipment from MGs, FlaK guns, artillery pieces, trucks and other vehicles including for example, it only had 36 of it's authorised 64 le.SPWs and only 150 of it's authorised 400 mSPW.

The truth is that it's a myth that the Waffen SS received priority for equipment and replacements during the war and there are plenty of excellent books that will show this but it is also backed up by the evidence of primary documents.

(in reply to AdmiralHalsey)
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RE: SS Units - 3/29/2021 9:49:51 AM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

SS fans will be interested in the latest research in 2 SS Panzer losses during citadel to Kharkov by B Wheatley, online for free for a short time at tandfonline before it becomes a book you have to pay for.He found a new rather important document.

In game you should see the extra equipment and manpower they have imbedded in the TOE, editor may be the best place to look to see where all the extra stuff went, more Machine guns, more AFV in equivalent platoon etc.

quote:

2 SS Panzer losses during citadel to Kharkov by B Wheatley


There is, as far as I can see, absolutely nothing new in Wheatley's article that hasn't appeared in other books over the last 10-20 years or so or in readily available NARA and BA-MA documents.

As to his, and I quote, "For the first time as a result of a recent archival discovery this article is able to reveal the true number of armoured fighting vehicles (AFV – tanks, assault guns and tank destroyers) losses the II SS Panzer Korps sustained during Operation Citadel (5–16.7.1943).4" to which the footnote 4 refers to NARA Roll T312-R1483 AOK 6, 1a, KTB 9, Zustandsberichte, Wochenmeldung über Panzer und Sturmgeschülzlage Stand 1.8.43 (written 6.8.43), well it may be a new archival discovery for him but I've had that NARA roll on my PC for the last 5 years and I know some people who have had it longer than that.



Then you should drop him an email


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/29/2021 11:50:27 AM >


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RE: SS Units - 3/29/2021 2:18:37 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

What's with fascination about Waffen-SS?

Read book of Otto Carius Tigers in Mud, for perspective.


What's the "fascination"-How about they elongated the war by 9 months?

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Post #: 21
RE: SS Units - 3/29/2021 4:41:18 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

What's with fascination about Waffen-SS?

Read book of Otto Carius Tigers in Mud, for perspective.


What's the "fascination"-How about they elongated the war by 9 months?


You should see US and even Russian re-enactors. Lot like to dress as SS...

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Post #: 22
RE: SS Units - 3/29/2021 5:08:51 PM   
Templer_12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

What's with fascination about Waffen-SS?

Read book of Otto Carius Tigers in Mud, for perspective.

There is so much that is fascinating about the SS!

German tank ace Otto Carius
If you can't, or don't want to read the book in German, you can listen to Tigers in the mud by Otto Carius in English.

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Post #: 23
RE: SS Units - 3/29/2021 6:11:46 PM   
Steelers708

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

What's with fascination about Waffen-SS?

Read book of Otto Carius Tigers in Mud, for perspective.

There is so much that is fascinating about the SS!

German tank ace Otto Carius
If you can't, or don't want to read the book in German, you can listen to Tigers in the mud by Otto Carius in English.


The problem with that is that Carius wasn't in the Waffen SS.

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 24
RE: SS Units - 3/30/2021 10:52:43 PM   
slothMD

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

SS fans


Should be avoided at all costs? Huge red flag, even more problematic than your garden-variety wehraboo. Who would be a _fan_ of a quasi-irregular fanatic subdivision in the military which was often more interested in committing war crimes and crimes against humanity than achieving actual military objectives?

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Post #: 25
RE: SS Units - 3/30/2021 11:59:58 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slothMD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

SS fans


Should be avoided at all costs? Huge red flag, even more problematic than your garden-variety wehraboo. Who would be a _fan_ of a quasi-irregular fanatic subdivision in the military which was often more interested in committing war crimes and crimes against humanity than achieving actual military objectives?

D Irving at his trial thought getting J Keegans expert testimony would help him, thinking Keegan liked him, as he helped Keegans research, turned out Keegan only wanted to know what Irving knew, so as to be better at understanding history, and actually disliked Irving, but engaged with him, if you want to know about the SS ask one of their fans.
Genocide was a military objective, try looking at the Nazi plans post victory for populations, UK to drop to 30 million and the rest gone, which was small fry as to the plans for the populations in the East.


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RE: SS Units - 3/31/2021 12:06:22 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Not sure what a "wehraboo" is and I'm not sure "fan" was meant above in the context you took it in. It's generally best to extend the benefit of the doubt on the internet, unless the poster makes sure to remove all doubt.

However, the subject of the SS can be a touchy one among wargamers. While they are "interesting" from a purely military perspective, many of the units were very clearly morally reprehensible "bad guys". Of course, on the Eastern Front there was also not much of a shortage of "bad guys" so you have to be willing to set that to the side to some degree to wargame the Eastern Front in full. The SS units also varied widely in quality as well as fanaticism or "devotion to the cause", especially as they added new units conscripted from conquered nations which were in many cases put under the control of the Waffen SS because they were politically suspect rather than politically reliable - the opposite of the SS stereotype.

The "core" SS still seems to always be a point of special interest from a military/wargaming standpoint because in some cases they fought fanatically (not always smartly) and often had better equipment and unique TO&Es. Any "elite" unit with special equipment in a particular war is going to get special attention from wargamers, in spite of the war crimes and atrocities many of the SS units were involved in, because it's another opportunity to see what a different type of unit with different fighting abilities does in a given situation. Personally I tend to think that for the most part the SS as a military force are a bit overrated, purely from a wargaming point of view, but I know there's plenty of evidence of hard fighting and battlefield bravery to go along with the evidence of less impressive battle and casualty results. I understand why it's of interest to wargamers to test these units against each other from a wargaming/battlefield point of view.

With all that said, I would expect that everyone on this forum is familiar with the full and terrible history and reputation of the SS. However, when wargaming the Eastern Front, the political and criminal aspects are typically set aside for a study of the military aspect and what it can teach about 20th Century combined arms motorized and mechanized warfare. Generally wargaming the Eastern Front does not involve picking sides or "roleplaying" as either the Nazis or the Soviets, or the SS or the NKVD, but focusing on the largest modern land war that ever happened and all that means as a sandbox for the study of combined arms combat, logistics, military history and the art and science of wargaming to understand the variables and influences on combat, past and present.

Regards,

- Erik




< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 3/31/2021 12:08:08 AM >


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(in reply to slothMD)
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