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Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2.

 
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Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 6:03:20 PM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

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So another thing I did when booting up the game for the first time was run it side by side with WITE to check the force distribution at the beginning of operation Barberossa, and I was suprised by the large number of differences I spotted.

Not only in the location of the units, [Some deployments have altered by as much as 50km] but the actual map itself has changed - Memel to Konigsburg, for example, appears to have changed from 9 to 11 hexes apart.

Are these cartography errors in WITE 1, and the result of additional historical research? Changes for game balencing reasons, or just disagreements between the designers of the set up for WITE vs WITE 2?


The combat power of units appears to have strikingly changed too. While I appreciate the systems behind the game are wildly different, both games appear to assign a Romanian division the notional power of '3', on the other hand the German Airlanding division [For example] has gone from around a 10, to around a 30. Or to put it another way, in WITE 1, 1 German Airlanding Division was worth roughly 3 Romanian Divisons in offensive firepower, while in WITE it now appears to be worth 10.

Is this a fundemental rethink in the relative combat worth of Axis allied divisions between games? If so, can we hear more about the thought process behind that evaulation?
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RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 6:07:14 PM   
821Bobo


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1 map is bigger therefore bigger distances between locations
2 CPP inflate attack CV therefore full prepared German inf div have 30, after you spend preparation points it will be 10

(in reply to AdmiralHalsey)
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RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 6:34:12 PM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

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1)

How does this work? The world wasn't bigger and both games use 10km per Hex. Why would the hex count change because the map is covering a larger area?

2) I'm aware of the introduction of CPP - That doesn't answer the question though in terms of the relative offensive capability between the Axis and Axis allies - Yes, once the [Example] Airlanding division has expended CPP it will have less offensive firepower, but proportionally between games a fully rested German Division is comparatively three times more effective than it was compared to its Romanian allies. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind such a formiddable change - That's not a small tweak, that's a huge comparative loss of combat potential, or a huge game, depending.

What caused the designers assessment of Romanian fighting power in 1941 to change so drastically between editions?

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RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 6:44:28 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdmiralHalsey
2) I'm aware of the introduction of CPP - That doesn't answer the question though in terms of the relative offensive capability between the Axis and Axis allies - Yes, once the [Example] Airlanding division has expended CPP it will have less offensive firepower, but proportionally between games a fully rested German Division is comparatively three times more effective than it was compared to its Romanian allies. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind such a formiddable change - That's not a small tweak, that's a huge comparative loss of combat potential, or a huge game, depending.

What caused the designers assessment of Romanian fighting power in 1941 to change so drastically between editions?

Why are you comparing a German division with 100 CPP to a Romanian division with 0 CPP in the first place? A Romanian division with 100 CPP has between 11 (regular infantry) and 14 (mountain brigade) CV...

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RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 6:45:04 PM   
loki100


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the game uses a different projection and the new method of generating the map made it far easier to adapt to emerging research. You'll notice the Neva hex line is far more realistic - and has profound game play implications

bit of general advice, don't apply the logic of #1 to #2. They are completely different games for all intents and purposes.

You'll find those strong T1 German infantry divisions quickly become a fond memory by the end of July - and that is not just the issue of using or retaining CPP

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RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 6:55:41 PM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

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I think you may both be missing my point. I shall try again with algebra.


In WITE a German Division has a combat potential of X. A Romanian Division has a combat potential of X/3.

In WITE2 a German Division has a combat potential of Y. A Romanian Division has a combat potential of Y/10.

The behind the scenes mechanics that decide how those feed into the games is irrelevent for the question I am asking [As is how those figures change over the course of the war.] What they infer is that on day 1 of the conflict, German divisions are now three times as combat capable as they were in the first game, comparative to their allies.

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RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 7:03:10 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdmiralHalsey

In WITE a German Division has a combat potential of X. A Romanian Division has a combat potential of X/3.

In WITE2 a German Division has a combat potential of Y. A Romanian Division has a combat potential of Y/10.

Where are these numbers even coming from? A German divison on Day 1 of Barbarossa does not have 10 times the CV of a Romanian unit.

I shall try with real numbers then since you are apparently not providing any:

On Day 1 of Barbarossa, 22nd Airlanding (an elite unite even for German standards) has 31 CV at 100 CPP. Regular German infantry divisions of 11th Army at 100 CPP have between 23 and 28 CV at 100 CPP.

A Romanian infantry division at Day 1 of Barbarossa has between 11 and 14 CV (the 1st Guards Division) at 100 CPP.

Even in the most extreme case (22nd Airlanding vs Romanian regular), a German division has slightly less than 3x Romanian CV (31/11).

So I have no idea where you are coming from with your 10x.

(in reply to AdmiralHalsey)
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RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 7:48:24 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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Admiral which Romanian Units are you looking at? I've just opened a new campaign start and have Romanian Divs at 12-15CV and some broken down Romanian regiments at 4-3CV?

I can't see any 3CV full divisions.

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 8
RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 8:03:52 PM   
Joel Billings


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As others have stated, the map is based on a different projection so there are going to be differences in distance between points on the map. This is the issue of dealing with the curvature of the earth in a 2 dimensional map. We think this projection is better. In addition, you've got a hex grid overlay which also abstracts things a bit as well. So the map is different, and we think better, although not perfect since it is just 2D. We think the terrain info on the map is more accurate as well.

As for combat power, that is built from the ground up. There have been so many changes since WitE that I can't tell you exactly why something is different. Some ground element types probably have slightly different CV values than they used to. OBs of units have gone through a lot of reevalutation. All morale and experience values were reevaluated. You'll notice that the Romanian mountain and cavalry units have much higher experience/morale ratings than they did in WitE, and than their regular infantry units have. This was because we found many references to their being significantly higher quality than the regular infantry. At times these were the only units (along with one or two other divisions) the Germans trusted to be in front line combat. Once you build everything up from the ground up, you can get differences between WitE and WitE2.

_____________________________

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(in reply to AdmiralHalsey)
Post #: 9
RE: Differences in the Map between WITE 1 & 2. - 3/25/2021 9:09:06 PM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

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Thanks Joel, basically the answer I was looking for!

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