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RE: So, when is the new patch coming out?

 
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RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/13/2021 8:13:35 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13020
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Indeed, here we go again. All I know is that plenty of other games post about ongoing developments...


And those games may have much different arrangements. Or they may be posting updates fast enough that it doesn't matter. If we posted one every 3 months, we could talk constantly, too.

quote:

perhaps you have some kind of super-secret NDA, dunno...


No secret. NDA stands for Non-Disclosure Agreement. And that's what it means.

quote:

And while I understand that there are good reasons to not to talk too much about upcoming developments, there are also plenty of good reasons to do just that--to keep the player base engaged and to avoid questions--as we are getting on this forum--about whether the game has been abandoned, or certain chronic issues will be fixed.


That doesn't require revelation of specifics, just assurance that the game is still being worked on. But players need to absorb that Ralph is AWOL for the time being. I'm still just the assistant.

Believe me, I would love to talk about future plans. But Matrix doesn't consider that to be good business sense.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 61
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/13/2021 8:52:57 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Or they may be posting updates fast enough that it doesn't matter. If we posted one every 3 months, we could talk constantly, too.

Actually most of these games are posting updates on a regular basis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
No secret. NDA stands for Non-Disclosure Agreement. And that's what it means.

Yes, I know what NDA means, LOL, just don't understand why yours would be so different than everyone else's or why Matrix wouldn't change it to conform to the others if you ask, given that yours might be 20 years old at this point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
That doesn't require revelation of specifics, just assurance that the game is still being worked on. But players need to absorb that Ralph is AWOL for the time being. I'm still just the assistant.

I think everyone understands that Ralph's absences are a serious problem, and thank you for your efforts as assistant. The problem is that given how often and prolonged Ralph's absences have been, repeated assurances that the game is being worked are no longer especially convincing. Or rather, personally I believe that the game is being worked on to some degree, but don't have much faith that we (the players) will ever see any significant results from it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Believe me, I would love to talk about future plans. But Matrix doesn't consider that to be good business sense.

OK, I'll take your word on that point. Unfortunately that doesn't instill much confidence that Matrix ever expects active development of this game to resume, at least for the foreseeable future--I'm sure that Bart will pop in any minute now to correct me!

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 62
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/13/2021 9:15:13 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13020
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Actually most of these games are posting updates on a regular basis.


Well, there you go. That's why they can talk and we can't.

quote:

The problem is that given how often and prolonged Ralph's absences have been, repeated assurances that the game is being worked are no longer especially convincing. Or rather, personally I believe that the game is being worked on to some degree, but don't have much faith that we (the players) will ever see any significant results from it.


Then what would be the point of talking about it, if we aren't even going to be believed?

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 63
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/13/2021 9:42:01 PM   
Lobster


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Bob, you refuse to accept any volunteer help because, as you said, you are afraid they will pirate the game. YOU refuse to. Tamas had said it would be okay. Tamas approached Ralph about it and Ralph said it would be okay. That left you and your paranoia refuses to accept any volunteer help. You can spin it any way you want.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 64
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/13/2021 10:02:35 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13020
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Bob, you refuse to accept any volunteer help because, as you said, you are afraid they will pirate the game. YOU refuse to. Tamas had said it would be okay. Tamas approached Ralph about it and Ralph said it would be okay. That left you and your paranoia refuses to accept any volunteer help. You can spin it any way you want.


I will now post my actual statement on the Development Board here (in response to your suggestion that I needed a team):

"All questions for Matrix, not me. But remember that this isn't Facebook: small pie to divide up. And Ralph isn't gone, he's just got issues with Matrix (I don't know what). Bringing in coders with no stake is risky. One bad apple and we go to open source!"

So...no refusal to accept help. Just a sober recognition that there are risks involved with coders with no stake. So, how about you stop the lies?

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 65
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/13/2021 11:04:55 PM   
Lobster


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That Tamas said it was ok to take on volunteers is not a lie. That Ralph told Tamas it was ok to take on volunteers is no lie. If there is a liar it is you. There is zero reason for you to take on help. Zero. Anyone other than a control freak would understand that things happen that can stop development of a project when there is only one person working on it. Health issues, accidents and a multitude of disasters. To blindly ignore that is to blindly ignore the obvious.

I wish I had joined the failed attempt to have you removed. You are a detriment to the project because you think you can do it all. You cannot.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 66
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/13/2021 11:25:42 PM   
Peresvet

 

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quote:

"Bringing in coders with no stake is risky. One bad apple and we go to open source!"


I believe Windows source code leaked at least couple of times. I don't think it affected their sales even a little bit. And of course, there's no open-source fork of the Windows.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 67
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 5:45:49 AM   
gliz2

 

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Three sort of people will ruin any project:
1. I am the most important and all wise types.
2. Wishy-washy, avoiding "major" risks.
3. Too optimistic.

From what Bob is saying he seems to be suffering from numero uno and duo. And that's just worrying.

As to stealing the code. The code at the current stage is so outdated, so crappy and so niche that even if it got stolen its value be close to zero. The code reached its limits. It could be further tweaked but the engine is so limiting then the question is what are you afraid of?

If you want to play the game you just google and there are plenty "options" as it doesn't have any DRM.
But still people buy the original. Same as they buy original Windows over illigal copies.

It all looks like an Eskimo fearing that an Somalian will come them to steal the snow.

_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to Peresvet)
Post #: 68
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 6:56:57 AM   
Peresvet

 

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quote:

If you want to play the game you just google and there are plenty "options" as it doesn't have any DRM.


Exactly. The reasons people prefer buying a game include:
1) Access to multiplayer (PBEM++)
2) Desire to support the team that is actively working on the game
3) Keep up with regular updates of the game without a need to look for updated "options" every time
4) etc

quote:

The code at the current stage is so outdated, so crappy and so niche that even if it got stolen its value be close to zero.


Even if the code is brilliant, nobody would ever decide to develop a new hardcore wargame based on an illegal copy of source code. It's a huge legal risk for tiny profit. So much more risky than writing ransomware, so much less profitable.

And of course anyone sharing the code illegally would be sued. So, the risk of code leak seems greatly exaggerated.

< Message edited by Peresvet -- 6/14/2021 7:01:00 AM >

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 69
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 7:16:56 AM   
sithlord_shag

 

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The politics of this thing sound quite diabolical. Participants here in the discussion have significant history with each other and despite what was said earlier I think you would have to be blind not to recognise that real grievances have been aired here.

I would only add at this point that Bob may have a point regarding the problems of incorporating volunteers into the project. There are significant problems whenever a commercial group involves volunteers in its work. It mainly involves the limitations of particular legal instruments protecting the trade secrets of the entity. It is actually an ongoing practical problem in the commercial world.

In terms of the value of the code, its true that it may have no value but this code would have a fairly complex transactional history. Its monetary value may not be the difficulty. It was developed by TS and depending on the various agreements between the creator and TS in the 90's would import certain obligations on the succeeding buyer, Take 2 and the next buyer Matrix. Matrix may not even be the primary rights holder, it may only hold a licence from Take 2. I dont know, but there may be a number of existing counter-party obligations hanging over from the original transactions in the 90s and added to by the further transactions in 2000's. One of those party's may well disagree with characterising the code as worthless.

Given the intensity of the debate here about the code, its pretty clear the code is not worthless.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 70
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 9:41:12 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
...
The, now oft repeated, lie that I'm preventing adding coders. Here is the reality: Matrix has total control over that. But look at the situation they're in: If they want to hire a new coding pro, they would have to offer Ralph's royalties to that coder. But, as soon as they do, Ralph will announce that he's "back!", and demand them for himself. That leaves relying on non-pros working for free. You get what you pay for, and there are real risks entrusting the code to people with no stake or commitment to the game.


For all that people slag Bob, there you go, the explanation of why this game is where it is. I can criticize the personal prioritization of the whislist but, what's pointed above would put a big spanner onto any game development.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 71
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 9:44:55 AM   
Simon Edmonds

 

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Been following this thread and having played it for 15 years or more I feel a bit poorly about someone saying that I don't have a stake in it. For that matter what about all of the people who have worked so hard to make the scenarios we play on it. You telling me they don't have a stake in it? Then there the people who do the mods and editor improvements. Having a stake in something is about more than just money. You ask who would invest massive amounts of time in something in something for no financial reward. Yeah ok. My hand is up. Guilty. But I think I am surrounded by a forest of others who see Toaw as more than "just a game".
I think I speak for all of us "non stake holders" in requesting an apology.

(in reply to sithlord_shag)
Post #: 72
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 11:40:40 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
...
The, now oft repeated, lie that I'm preventing adding coders. Here is the reality: Matrix has total control over that. But look at the situation they're in: If they want to hire a new coding pro, they would have to offer Ralph's royalties to that coder. But, as soon as they do, Ralph will announce that he's "back!", and demand them for himself. That leaves relying on non-pros working for free. You get what you pay for, and there are real risks entrusting the code to people with no stake or commitment to the game.


For all that people slag Bob, there you go, the explanation of why this game is where it is. I can criticize the personal prioritization of the whislist but, what's pointed above would put a big spanner onto any game development.



So then, Bob is working for pay. But he used to be working for nothing. So does that make him one of those that would throw a spanner in the game development and then presto whamo he doesn't by a wave of the wand?

There are things in life that affect the advancement of this game that are troubling due to the lack of accepting the fact that more than one person is needed to code. It could all come to a full stop in a second. No one is getting younger. That lack of a backup is what I don't support. Dumping a partially completed project in someone's lap who is not directly involved is usually courting disaster.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 73
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 11:56:55 AM   
sithlord_shag

 

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There are things in life that affect the advancement of this game that are troubling due to the lack of accepting the fact that more than one person is needed to code. It could all come to a full stop in a second. No one is getting younger. That lack of a backup is what I don't support....


Thats actually an argument that has merit.

< Message edited by sithlord_shag -- 6/14/2021 11:57:37 AM >

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 74
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 1:12:09 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

... So does that make him one of those that would throw a spanner in the game development and then presto whamo he doesn't by a wave of the wand?
...


Not my understanding of what he wrote, nor my understanding of the situation, not even what I meant re throwing a spanner in the works. Just to clarify in case that sentence above means your understanding of what I wrote.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 75
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 1:13:45 PM   
Hellen_slith


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say man, I think I remember us playing back in ACOW days on the ladder ... blitz? Good times :)

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 76
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 1:37:43 PM   
nepos2

 

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I fail to understand the Bob-slamming in this thread.

Fact 1: Bob does not own Matrix Games.
Fact 2: Bob does not own Opart IV either.

Conclusion: Not his responsibility. Take it up with Matrix Games instead.

Regards,
Henrik

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 77
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:24:21 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nepos2


I fail to understand the Bob-slamming in this thread.

Fact 1: Bob does not own Matrix Games.
Fact 2: Bob does not own Opart IV either.

Conclusion: Not his responsibility. Take it up with Matrix Games instead.

Regards,
Henrik



So if someone does not ask for help how are they to receive it? Will Matrix look at their crystal ball? Will an owl deliver some letters to Erik? Will the Matrix mystics throw bones to see who needs help? Roll of the dice? Dreams? Please explain how someone who doesn't ask for help gets help in a company that has so many irons in the fire. There isn't a product manager anymore. The one assigned is no where to be seen. About as visible as Bob's requests for help.

Also get one thing straight. This is about advancing the development of the game. Bob is doing all that ONE PERSON can do given everything surrounding the development of the game. That is the problem. One person who refuses to seek help because 'someone might pirate the game'.

Oh and by the way. I did take it up with Matrix. Was told it was ok to seek qualified volunteers. Ball was in Bob's court. He's still dribbling.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to nepos2)
Post #: 78
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:38:29 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Bringing in coders with no stake is risky. One bad apple and we go to open source!"

As others have pointed out, leaked code does not make a program "open source". If someone wants to play a free version of TOAW IV, I'm sure they could find a version on the internet. Someone would have to be insane to take the twenty year old TOAW code and improve it for commercial purposes. And someone improving it for non-commercial purposes...well, that's exactly what we're asking you to do in taking on a volunteer...

Frankly I don't get the issue at all, especially if Matrix and Ralph are OK with that, as they seem to be.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 79
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:42:12 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13020
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

That Tamas said it was ok to take on volunteers is not a lie. That Ralph told Tamas it was ok to take on volunteers is no lie.


They failed to tell me about it. Why didn't Tamas get it done then? As I've said all along, this is an issue for Matrix. All I've done is tried to make the problems clear.

quote:

If there is a liar it is you. There is zero reason for you to take on help. Zero. Anyone other than a control freak would understand that things happen that can stop development of a project when there is only one person working on it. Health issues, accidents and a multitude of disasters. To blindly ignore that is to blindly ignore the obvious.


I defy you to back up any of that with any quote from me! It is a complete fabrication by you. Ralph and I have worked together as a team for years. Prior to that, we did whatever Erik wanted. All I said was that it was risky giving the code to people with no stake in the game. That is a true statement! From that you've fabricated this monstrous lie. I don't know why.

quote:

I wish I had joined the failed attempt to have you removed. You are a detriment to the project because you think you can do it all. You cannot.


Another lie. The only truth is that I'm currently forced to do it all.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 80
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:44:07 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13020
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From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

From what Bob is saying he seems to be suffering from numero uno and duo. And that's just worrying.


Back that up with a quote from me!

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 81
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:51:21 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


I don't know why.




Because he has an axe to grind. He lurks here posting digs at the game constantly. Never posts an AAR. Never finishes his grand scenario. Just grouses constantly knocking the game. Its very tiresome. I doubt that he ever plays.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 82
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:53:43 PM   
gliz2

 

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Bob you've just wrote that "I'm currently forced to do it all".

That's not true. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do it all (alone).
You are choosing so. If you'd really want to share the workload there would be already a team.
But you seem to be stacking problems and excuses.
Either you have luxurious arrangement for the job you do, which I doubt is the case or you simply are not capable of handling things, which is not uncommon.
And this is not bashing Bob but a constructive criticism.

Of course maybe you have a good deal, bills to pay and just don't want to kill this cash cow but again: I highly doubt it this is the case.


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 83
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:55:15 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13020
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Bringing in coders with no stake is risky. One bad apple and we go to open source!"

As others have pointed out, leaked code does not make a program "open source". If someone wants to play a free version of TOAW IV, I'm sure they could find a version on the internet. Someone would have to be insane to take the twenty year old TOAW code and improve it for commercial purposes. And someone improving it for non-commercial purposes...well, that's exactly what we're asking you to do in taking on a volunteer...

Frankly I don't get the issue at all, especially if Matrix and Ralph are OK with that, as they seem to be.


I guess that's why software companies always post their proprietary code publicly. Not.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 84
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:57:33 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13020
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Bob you've just wrote that "I'm currently forced to do it all".

That's not true. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do it all (alone).
You are choosing so. If you'd really want to share the workload there would be already a team.
But you seem to be stacking problems and excuses.
Either you have luxurious arrangement for the job you do, which I doubt is the case or you simply are not capable of handling things, which is not uncommon.
And this is not bashing Bob but a constructive criticism.

Of course maybe you have a good deal, bills to pay and just don't want to kill this cash cow but again: I highly doubt it this is the case.


Amazing what people can dream up on zero evidence.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 85
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 2:58:33 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I guess that's why software companies always post their proprietary code publicly. Not.


(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 86
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 3:42:36 PM   
gliz2

 

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So you are saying you are being forced to work on TOAW IV on your own. Otherwise Kim Junior will send you his "best regards" 🙄

_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 87
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/14/2021 5:06:26 PM   
sithlord_shag

 

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To characterise this discussion as constructive criticism is stretching that idea to its breaking point. Its really just now a series of competing factual disputes.

I think what is significant is Lobster's claim that he had communication with someone form Matrix who greenlit volunteer involvement. I think Lobster is obliged to particularise the details of that communication. Basically, who and what was discussed?

If they never bothered to tell Bob its not fair for him to wear that.



(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 88
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 12:31:01 AM   
Simon Edmonds

 

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Ok. Lets particularize some details.

Posted on May 25 2006 on Electronic Games
Topic: TOAW 3 - Ralph Trickey Interview
Question: "What aspect of the past six months has been the most difficult battle you’ve had to fight as a coder?"
Answer: The most difficult thing is that the language is an ‘old’ language. Norm Koger did an excellent job of writing TOAW, but I’m having to drop my programming knowledge back about 20 years. I’m hoping to rewrite it in a more friendly language (C++ or C#) over the next X years."

So that in my opinion is the direction Ralph wants to head. Which direction do you want to head Bob? I don't mean that in a negative way either. You lead and we will pitch in with help and suggestions for the game and the code. We don't have to see the code. Half of us wouldn't understand it anyway. Just tell us in specific terms what you are trying to achieve. Here is an example.

Situation: Other games have a "line of command" built into them to model the effects of different leaders. It is something TOAW should do.
Mission: To create a "line of command" effect for TOAW.
To create a "line of command" effect for TOAW.
Execution: 1. Code in the effect in a "least effect fashion. 2. Playtest. 3. Make the effect stronger. 4. Playtest. 5. Repeat this process until
a balance is achieved.
Admin & Log: All code will be held by Bob Cross. Playtesters will be selected and provided with additional information as required. Comunication
will be via the forum and pm's. All stakeholders (game owners) will notified of progress and problems via the forum.
Comd & Control: Bob Cross will be in charge of coding with control of who codes what and who sees what code. (compartmentalization)

Assuming this is acceptable; the sort of help and suggestions might be: "What if we add an extra column to the unit table to show a numeric code representing the leader of the formation." "We could have a table for all of the leaders and their strengths with a code for each leader and a value column for each of the strengths they bring to the table" "We could have a form where players could edit the leaders and values for their own scenarios.
And so on. It's like a snow ball rolling down a hill. It's all about communication.

But first as Ralph said: "We need to rewrite it in a friendly language".

By the way. What language is it currently written in?



(in reply to sithlord_shag)
Post #: 89
RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 1:08:42 AM   
sithlord_shag

 

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Thats a good description of an aspiration, but that is not what I had in mind in terms of particularising the details of the claim that Matrix have agreed to allow volunteers to participate. I think only Lobster is in that position to answer that question.

(in reply to Simon Edmonds)
Post #: 90
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