Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/24/2021 8:16:26 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 617
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
So to clarify some points raised in the static unit thread on the mechanics of supply distribution.

Starting point:
Supply allocation happens in several steps, with each step allocating a % of need, if freight/vehicles etc. available. Units within 3 hexes of a depot automatically pay double freight cost for received supply, but do not use vehicles/fuel.

Assume 10 infantry units, each with identical need, and all checks passed, so everybody has the same number of supply phases. Half of the units are within/without 3 hexes from depot. Further assume no further depots within range, so all can only draw from the one depot.

10000 supply need, 10000 freight in depot.

Now with 3 hex rule, real freight need is de facto 15000 (excluding fuel, 10k for 5k need within 3 hexes, 5k + fuel for 4+hexes). So how does the allocation system dealt with this.

If my understanding is correct, a supply phase will not anticipate future supply phase needs (makes sense, a unit may not qualify for those phases) and only distributes according to need/freight for the phase in question. This repeats until no more freight or no more eligble units or no more phases.

So units within the 3 hexes will pay double freight,, while it is available, even though in the overall picture one would rather pay some fuel and have the extra freight converted into supply in later phases.

So all else being equal, in the above example, one can expect units to receive about 2/3 of the needed supply to reach the units before the freight runs out.

If one puts all units 4 hexes from depot, the average unit will get 95%+.

Is the above correct? Would need a custom scenario to test it out.
Post #: 1
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/24/2021 9:02:38 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 7485
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline
That sounds about right.

Note that Supply Priority is the vary base of the supply system.

Priority 1 (lowest) will give about 60 to 70% of the freight needed.

Priority 2 (medium) will give about 80 to 90%.

Priority 3 (high) will give around 100%

Priority 4 (very high) will give around 110%

I just did a comprehensive logistics AAR for the playtest group in C41 from the Axis side and these were the practical results.

Realize that most infantry armies that are maxed out on command points (i.e. maximum combat units in the command organization) will require about 1000 freight a turn to keep up. But at priority 2 the army will slowly fall back if they are on the edge of the supply net. By the and of 41 most of the infantry armies needed about 2400 freight but were only getting about 1600. This was in late November 41 after all of the bad weather to that point. The Panzer Groups (priority 4) could usually keep above the supply need unless it is a long run from the depots. Most armies will be supplied from a single depot for the Axis in 41. This gets better later in the war for the Axis while it will get worse for the Soviets.

The Axis need trucks and fuel far more than worrying about freight before the really bad weather hits. So keeping the static supply net within three hexes of the front line is a good thing especially in bad weather.

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 2
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 1:08:41 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

So to clarify some points raised in the static unit thread on the mechanics of supply distribution.

Starting point:
Supply allocation happens in several steps, with each step allocating a % of need, if freight/vehicles etc. available. Units within 3 hexes of a depot automatically pay double freight cost for received supply, but do not use vehicles/fuel.

Assume 10 infantry units, each with identical need, and all checks passed, so everybody has the same number of supply phases. Half of the units are within/without 3 hexes from depot. Further assume no further depots within range, so all can only draw from the one depot.

10000 supply need, 10000 freight in depot.

Now with 3 hex rule, real freight need is de facto 15000 (excluding fuel, 10k for 5k need within 3 hexes, 5k + fuel for 4+hexes). So how does the allocation system dealt with this.

If my understanding is correct, a supply phase will not anticipate future supply phase needs (makes sense, a unit may not qualify for those phases) and only distributes according to need/freight for the phase in question. This repeats until no more freight or no more eligble units or no more phases.

So units within the 3 hexes will pay double freight,, while it is available, even though in the overall picture one would rather pay some fuel and have the extra freight converted into supply in later phases.

So all else being equal, in the above example, one can expect units to receive about 2/3 of the needed supply to reach the units before the freight runs out.

If one puts all units 4 hexes from depot, the average unit will get 95%+.

Is the above correct? Would need a custom scenario to test it out.


Itís counter intuitive, the way the manual explains it, the closer you are to a depot the more freight is consumed to deliver it, the further away you are the better off you are.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/25/2021 1:09:27 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 3
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 1:16:10 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 36054
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
In my experience, the units that are closest within that 3 hex range generally do the best in terms of receiving supplies and replacements, when all factors are considered, especially bad weather and ground conditions.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 4
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 1:35:00 PM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline
Freight != Supply

"Freight" is generic shipping tonnage. It converts to fuel, supplies, replacements, and ammo at the front. Within three hexes you get the option to use Supply-as-Fuel (aka, horse fodder for pre-mechanized supply delivery), but outside of that you are using Fuel-as-Fuel. Both come from the Freight allocation (or from a unit).

In practice, you're far more likely to go green on logistics near a depot. Trying to sustain further from depots always (all other variables being equal...not that this ever happens) ends up being the harder position to supply. Fuel in particular can set up a burn:deliver situation at longer ranges, where the amount of fuel you spend delivering fuel imposes a high tax on available freight. And at some point covering the distance consumes trucks not just out of the depot, but out of the supplied units, which in turn lowers their overall ability to both move and transfer supply - and in the long term requires burning up more Freight as replacement trucks (which also have to be delivered).

Loki is the Master of the Manual, so if that's not the sense you're getting, I'm sure he'll be around to check. All I can say is that if you see a counter-intuitive Kabuki trick, the odds are good it isn't real in practice and may either be a misunderstanding or an item that assumes fluency in earlier parts of the manual. (Or, slim though the odds may be, a disconnect)


(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 5
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 1:39:56 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In my experience, the units that are closest within that 3 hex range generally do the best in terms of receiving supplies and replacements, when all factors are considered, especially bad weather and ground conditions.


Post 6 in the static thread explain its a either wagons up to range three hex at double cost, or trucks at base cost for further distance, so each supply check hits closest unit and returns to depot reducing freight by its use, so being closer means you get more supply hits till freight capacity is used up, giving what you see, what I am unclear about is if your not better off being 4+hexes, as then your freight cost per supply run is costed at base, clearly weather and terrain make mps expended an issue, but in general it appears to me you will be, because of wagon cost being doubled.

Are you sure trucks are not used as well as wagons up to range3?


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 6
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 1:52:16 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 36054
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
In my actual gameplay experience, you are not better off being further away. Beyond that others will have to advise, but having just gotten through another Mud season and Winter going from 1941-1942, being very close to the railhead and depot was absolutely a matter of survival for my units.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 7
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 1:52:42 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

Freight != Supply

"Freight" is generic shipping tonnage. It converts to fuel, supplies, replacements, and ammo at the front. Within three hexes you get the option to use Supply-as-Fuel (aka, horse fodder for pre-mechanized supply delivery), but outside of that you are using Fuel-as-Fuel. Both come from the Freight allocation (or from a unit).

In practice, you're far more likely to go green on logistics near a depot. Trying to sustain further from depots always (all other variables being equal...not that this ever happens) ends up being the harder position to supply. Fuel in particular can set up a burn:deliver situation at longer ranges, where the amount of fuel you spend delivering fuel imposes a high tax on available freight. And at some point covering the distance consumes trucks not just out of the depot, but out of the supplied units, which in turn lowers their overall ability to both move and transfer supply - and in the long term requires burning up more Freight as replacement trucks (which also have to be delivered).

Loki is the Master of the Manual, so if that's not the sense you're getting, I'm sure he'll be around to check. All I can say is that if you see a counter-intuitive Kabuki trick, the odds are good it isn't real in practice and may either be a misunderstanding or an item that assumes fluency in earlier parts of the manual. (Or, slim though the odds may be, a disconnect)




Loki has explained all units within 3 hexes of a depot pay double freight cost as they use wagons not trucks, this throws up the problem of being better supplied at a rage greater than 3 hexes due to the math of the supply methods.


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to GloriousRuse)
Post #: 8
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 1:56:25 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

25.5.5. Using Horses for Supply Axis and Soviet units can receive supply and replacements from a depot without having to use vehicles up to 3 hexes from the depot through the use of animal drawn transport.
However, this will cost double the freight being delivered as the animal drawn transport is assumed to be consuming fodder.


This one caught my eye in the manual too. Simplified example:

Division 5 hexes from depot requires:
10 tons supplies
10 tons ammo
10 tons fuel for the trucks hauling the supply&ammo 5 hexes
Total freight required: 30 tons

Same Division 3 hexes from depot requires:
10 tons supplies
10 tons ammo
20 tons supplies for horse fodder
Total freight required: 40 tons


I'm of course probably way off with the fuel usage, could be that truck consumption is more? Anyway, doubling the freight amount when using horses sounds quite steep, but I'm sure there's something in the supply calculation that we're missing here? Need to experiment more when we get the game ready for download :)

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 3/25/2021 1:58:47 PM >

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 9
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 2:03:03 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 36054
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
The key point missing in the speculation above I think is the availability of trucks, the cost of truck movement and the competition across the entire front for the general truck pool. Organic unit trucks can of course help as well, but that will also affect unit movement and cause even more wear and tear in the long run. Despite the additional cost of fodder, the net effect of being within three hexes in not having to rely on trucks in practice translates to a significant and noticeable net benefit to the unit (in my experience). With that said, this is assuming all other things are equal in terms of depot priority, capacity, supply priority, admin checks, etc.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 10
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 2:17:11 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The key point missing in the speculation above I think is the availability of trucks, the cost of truck movement and the competition across the entire front for the general truck pool. Organic unit trucks can of course help as well, but that will also affect unit movement and cause even more wear and tear in the long run. Despite the additional cost of fodder, the net effect of being within three hexes in not having to rely on trucks in practice translates to a significant and noticeable net benefit to the unit (in my experience). With that said, this is assuming all other things are equal in terms of depot priority, capacity, supply priority, admin checks, etc.


Can't wait to test this stuff out :)

quote:

When a vehicle is taking freight from a depot to a unit, it traces the range in both hexes and the MP cost to the unit. This is important as the further the path in MPs, the less can be carried by each vehicle and the greater chance of loss enroute.


Seems like there's no definitive calculated answer for "How much freight can my division get?" directly in the manual, but the further you are from the depot, the less you receive and the more strain the unit presents for the motor pool and the whole logistics network. It could even be the case that initially horse transport will strain the rail lines more (fodder vs fuel), but once you'll start facing fuel shortages, broken trucks and bad roads you'll be happy to have them horsies around ;)

Without having the game at hand (doh!), I'm still fairly certain that a unit 3 hexes from depot doesn't require more freight than the one sitting 4 hexes away. If I'm wrong, I'd call it a bad feature not to be able to decide when to use horses instead of trucks. Sometimes the rail line capacity could be the bottleneck, not the trucks available, right?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 11
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 2:25:56 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The key point missing in the speculation above I think is the availability of trucks, the cost of truck movement and the competition across the entire front for the general truck pool. Organic unit trucks can of course help as well, but that will also affect unit movement and cause even more wear and tear in the long run. Despite the additional cost of fodder, the net effect of being within three hexes in not having to rely on trucks in practice translates to a significant and noticeable net benefit to the unit (in my experience). With that said, this is assuming all other things are equal in terms of depot priority, capacity, supply priority, admin checks, etc.


As I understand the manual, Trucks the manual tell us are a generic 2.5 t, so the freight capacity of the depot is the upper limit to the freight capacity at the depot, which is dependent on truck availability it my be lower, but whatever number is, itís this number thatís reduced by wagons to range 3 at double cost and trucks to whatever range at base cost on tons trying to fill unit demand of x tons of this or that, as it consumes the most truck generated freight capacity,

Itís the rate of reduction of freight capacity by wagons thatís counter intuitive, as fodder reduces freight delivered on a 60 mile round trip by a 2000 lbs wagon with 2 horse lasting 3 days, at 20mpd, so 3 max in a week as you rest the horse on the 7th or they die like flies, by 10%, while a truck does the same forward lift in 3 hours with no reduction of freight loaded.

Think of what is being abstracted every t requested from a depot by a unit within 3 hexes is costed double freight as its coming by wagons, a day to each hex, so 1 hex you get three supply lifts, 3 hex you get 1, so the nearer you are the more supply lifts appear to fill your request. Now a truck would do this in hours for each day a wagon takes, so the game abstraction of freight is missing time, in the same time of the freight by each, the truck is massively superior in its freight capacity, conversely, a wagon is not half as good as a truck.

I take your point about truck availability, if wagons is all you have, hey ho, gifddy up,Loki tells us in all his testing and AAR reading, he rarely has seen units become static to put trucks into supply net.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/25/2021 2:53:49 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 12
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 2:49:43 PM   
loki100


Posts: 9004
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

Freight != Supply

"Freight" is generic shipping tonnage. It converts to fuel, supplies, replacements, and ammo at the front. Within three hexes you get the option to use Supply-as-Fuel (aka, horse fodder for pre-mechanized supply delivery), but outside of that you are using Fuel-as-Fuel. Both come from the Freight allocation (or from a unit).

In practice, you're far more likely to go green on logistics near a depot. Trying to sustain further from depots always (all other variables being equal...not that this ever happens) ends up being the harder position to supply. Fuel in particular can set up a burn:deliver situation at longer ranges, where the amount of fuel you spend delivering fuel imposes a high tax on available freight. And at some point covering the distance consumes trucks not just out of the depot, but out of the supplied units, which in turn lowers their overall ability to both move and transfer supply - and in the long term requires burning up more Freight as replacement trucks (which also have to be delivered).

Loki is the Master of the Manual, so if that's not the sense you're getting, I'm sure he'll be around to check. All I can say is that if you see a counter-intuitive Kabuki trick, the odds are good it isn't real in practice and may either be a misunderstanding or an item that assumes fluency in earlier parts of the manual. (Or, slim though the odds may be, a disconnect)




Loki has explained all units within 3 hexes of a depot pay double freight cost as they use wagons not trucks, this throws up the problem of being better supplied at a rage greater than 3 hexes due to the math of the supply methods.



No I didn't ... they are equally eligible for using this method of resupply with the same massive constraint, IF, there is enough supply in the depots within 3 hexes. Once that is exhausted, they need trucks as they need to reach further for their supply.

Sorry to keep saying this, but the system is not the linear logic you are trying to impose on it.

Also, most of the time both armies have a global truck shortage - see the Soviet AAR I posted for intermittent discussions of this. Again its a non-linear part to the wider moving puzzle.

_____________________________


(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 13
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 3:05:54 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

Freight != Supply

"Freight" is generic shipping tonnage. It converts to fuel, supplies, replacements, and ammo at the front. Within three hexes you get the option to use Supply-as-Fuel (aka, horse fodder for pre-mechanized supply delivery), but outside of that you are using Fuel-as-Fuel. Both come from the Freight allocation (or from a unit).

In practice, you're far more likely to go green on logistics near a depot. Trying to sustain further from depots always (all other variables being equal...not that this ever happens) ends up being the harder position to supply. Fuel in particular can set up a burn:deliver situation at longer ranges, where the amount of fuel you spend delivering fuel imposes a high tax on available freight. And at some point covering the distance consumes trucks not just out of the depot, but out of the supplied units, which in turn lowers their overall ability to both move and transfer supply - and in the long term requires burning up more Freight as replacement trucks (which also have to be delivered).

Loki is the Master of the Manual, so if that's not the sense you're getting, I'm sure he'll be around to check. All I can say is that if you see a counter-intuitive Kabuki trick, the odds are good it isn't real in practice and may either be a misunderstanding or an item that assumes fluency in earlier parts of the manual. (Or, slim though the odds may be, a disconnect)




Loki has explained all units within 3 hexes of a depot pay double freight cost as they use wagons not trucks, this throws up the problem of being better supplied at a rage greater than 3 hexes due to the math of the supply methods.



No I didn't ... they are equally eligible for using this method of resupply with the same massive constraint, IF, there is enough supply in the depots within 3 hexes. Once that is exhausted, they need trucks as they need to reach further for their supply.

Sorry to keep saying this, but the system is not the linear logic you are trying to impose on it.

Also, most of the time both armies have a global truck shortage - see the Soviet AAR I posted for intermittent discussions of this. Again its a non-linear part to the wider moving puzzle.


Actually you wrote exactly that in post 6 in the Static thread.

Im not trying to impose anything, Iím trying to make sense of a poorly written manual coupled with your communication skills to explain it.


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 14
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/25/2021 3:49:16 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 30540
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
In the end, you will have to play things out and see how it goes. Generally we consider the 3 hex resupply better because:

1) You don't damage/destroy your trucks
2) You don't have to spend fuel for the trucks
3) You don't have to pay the cost of moving trucks around between depots
4) You suffer little or no outright loss of freight in the actual delivery process (which goes up a lot as the distance to the depot increases, and as partisan/interdiction levels increase)
5) You don't use unit trucks to get the freight, which reduces your unit's MPs

Yes, you pay double freight costs, but in practice all of the above generally adds up to something worse. I can't give you a mathematical formula, which is why I say you really have to play it and see how all these costs add up in practice.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 15
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 8:34:33 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

In the end, you will have to play things out and see how it goes. Generally we consider the 3 hex resupply better because:

1) You don't damage/destroy your trucks
2) You don't have to spend fuel for the trucks
3) You don't have to pay the cost of moving trucks around between depots
4) You suffer little or no outright loss of freight in the actual delivery process (which goes up a lot as the distance to the depot increases, and as partisan/interdiction levels increase)
5) You don't use unit trucks to get the freight, which reduces your unit's MPs

Yes, you pay double freight costs, but in practice all of the above generally adds up to something worse. I can't give you a mathematical formula, which is why I say you really have to play it and see how all these costs add up in practice.


1 and 2 are cause and effect, and if the issue is retention of truck capacity for both logistical and tactical reasons, then itís a good choice for the player to have to make, but has little input on this.

3 Is freight capacity is generated by truck capacity and consumed by trucks and wagons, wagons in effect become limited only by the depot capacity and truck availability, so while you gain in fuel savings, you create a different logistical constrain, which effect terrain, and create almost infinite horse drawn transport, limited not by horse availability but by trucks availability. The movement of any mps lost is moved to logistics phas, but no units pay for the effect it has on the road net that bears the burden.

A number of units are within 3 hex range of depot and have supply demand, letís consider the terrain, itís a average road at all 3 for example, so there is in each hex 105600 feet of road there and back, in a 24 hour period the max number of wagons at 40 feet length that can move there and back at 20 mpd, is 2640 wagons at 1 t capacity, less fodder of 10% per day returns 2214 tons delivered, this occupies every foot of road space there and back, which denies the road space to any other traffic.At 2 hex, fodder reduces freight yield by 20%, 3 hex by 30%.The constraints of space and time put a max output on the road net, so the important thing is the road net, if there are two roads the road net capacity is doubled. To even reach hex two take a whole day travail time, filling half the road capacity and so on. In game the cost of 1 t delivered is costed at double of course.

4 In game the loss of freight yield is abstracted as being double reduction of truck generated freight capacity, which is one way to do it, but not at double cost, is the folder cost to the depot for all the wagons in supply used to create demand at the depot?.

5. The unit trucks and wagons existed to do that every day, by going to the depots to draw unit of supply equal to unit of supply consumed, by not using them your building in extra movement capacity to the parent unit, and is major difference between MTV equipped formation and muscle powered majority formations.

Double cost is an abstraction and does not work for me at double freight cost, each day in 41 the German QM moved 6.5 million tons by trucks, 33,000 by horse, does that look like the ratio you see in game? In 41.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/26/2021 10:25:05 AM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 16
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 11:10:46 AM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Double cost is an abstraction and does not work for me at double freight cost, each day in 41 the German QM moved 6.5 million tons by trucks, 33,000 by horse, does that look like the ratio you see in game? In 41.


Oh my, I hope no one reveals you the amount of abstractions needed to make a good strategy game.

I'm all in for historical accuracy, but maybe you should read a bit about "design for effect", specifically in game design. Even if you're making The Ultimate War Simulator Of All Wars And Battles Ever Fought, part XXXLVII, you still need to stop somewhere and decide "Hey, I'll just do that like this and forget about the details, it works nice enough this way."


The 3 hex horse rule is there to tell you that if you're close to depot, you'll spend less trucks and fuel to haul freight, but will use some more supplies in the process. I understand your worry if the supply demand somehow skyrockets in comparison between 3 and 4 hexes, but I doubt that's the case?



(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 17
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 11:29:27 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:


Iunderstand your worry if the supply demand somehow skyrockets in comparison between 3 and 4 hexes, but I doubt that's the case?


Since I wrote no such thing, the problems are all your end, and they are many, including but not limited to,
Demand is a variable , a planning variable, freight value at different distances, the distance to depot does not change the amount of demand, the cost meeting that demand is fixed at double cost at range 3 and single cost beyond, these are known as planning constants,I I wrote it may well be better not to be within 3, the very oposite of how you understood it.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/26/2021 1:11:46 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 18
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 11:29:55 AM   
devoncop


Posts: 1145
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Double cost is an abstraction and does not work for me at double freight cost, each day in 41 the German QM moved 6.5 million tons by trucks, 33,000 by horse, does that look like the ratio you see in game? In 41.


Oh my, I hope no one reveals you the amount of abstractions needed to make a good strategy game.

I'm all in for historical accuracy, but maybe you should read a bit about "design for effect", specifically in game design. Even if you're making The Ultimate War Simulator Of All Wars And Battles Ever Fought, part XXXLVII, you still need to stop somewhere and decide "Hey, I'll just do that like this and forget about the details, it works nice enough this way."


The 3 hex horse rule is there to tell you that if you're close to depot, you'll spend less trucks and fuel to haul freight, but will use some more supplies in the process. I understand your worry if the supply demand somehow skyrockets in comparison between 3 and 4 hexes, but I doubt that's the case?






+1

As an academic exercise the OP may have a point. In terms of the game functionality it is another matter as Loki and others have made clear there are multiple game mechanics working together to produce a logical outcome.

Taking the OP's example in isolation the results may seem odd but it may be advisable to actually play the game and see the results in practice.


_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 19
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 11:32:23 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Double cost is an abstraction and does not work for me at double freight cost, each day in 41 the German QM moved 6.5 million tons by trucks, 33,000 by horse, does that look like the ratio you see in game? In 41.


Oh my, I hope no one reveals you the amount of abstractions needed to make a good strategy game.

I'm all in for historical accuracy, but maybe you should read a bit about "design for effect", specifically in game design. Even if you're making The Ultimate War Simulator Of All Wars And Battles Ever Fought, part XXXLVII, you still need to stop somewhere and decide "Hey, I'll just do that like this and forget about the details, it works nice enough this way."


The 3 hex horse rule is there to tell you that if you're close to depot, you'll spend less trucks and fuel to haul freight, but will use some more supplies in the process. I understand your worry if the supply demand somehow skyrockets in comparison between 3 and 4 hexes, but I doubt that's the case?






+1

As an academic exercise the OP may have a point. In terms of the game functionality it is another matter as Loki and others have made clear there are multiple game mechanics working together to produce a logical outcome.

Taking the OP's example in isolation the results may seem odd but it may be advisable to actually play the game and see the results in practice.



Thatís the same Loki who has answered yes and no to the same question, after not knowing the rule existed about double freight cost right?


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 20
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 11:47:21 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5837
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline
Don't feed the troll.

_____________________________

We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw

WitE alpha/beta tester
Sanctus Reach beta tester
Desert War 1940-42 beta tester

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 21
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 2:17:06 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 36054
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Thatís the same Loki who has answered yes and no to the same question, after not knowing the rule existed about double freight cost right?


He wrote the manual you are reading. I'm quite sure he knew about the rule. Bottom line on this is that from this point on the issue is no longer theoretical. Give it a try in-game, take our comments into account and if you see something that in actual play looks wrong, please let us know and we'll investigate.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 22
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 3:19:57 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Thatís the same Loki who has answered yes and no to the same question, after not knowing the rule existed about double freight cost right?


He wrote the manual you are reading. I'm quite sure he knew about the rule. Bottom line on this is that from this point on the issue is no longer theoretical. Give it a try in-game, take our comments into account and if you see something that in actual play looks wrong, please let us know and we'll investigate.

Static unit thread which leads to this thread as per first post content, in that thread post 2 Loki answering both yes and no to the same question, admits he has forgotten the wagon double cost rule.

what I am seeing is people conducting their game/ operational moves based on a logistical system that does not act like that of any WW2 Army, so see little need to join in at that fruitless endeavour.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/26/2021 3:20:53 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 23
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/26/2021 3:30:52 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 36054
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Static unit thread which leads to this thread as per first post content, in that thread post 2 Loki answering both yes and no to the same question, admits he has forgotten the wagon double cost rule.


I'm sure you can understand that even if one knows all the rules, it's easy to forget one or two from time to time.

quote:

what I am seeing is people conducting their game/ operational moves based on a logistical system that does not act like that of any WW2 Army, so see little need to join in at that fruitless endeavour.


I'm not seeing that at all, but of course your mileage may vary and it's certainly 100% your choice what to do with your gaming budget.


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 24
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/27/2021 9:43:19 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Static unit thread which leads to this thread as per first post content, in that thread post 2 Loki answering both yes and no to the same question, admits he has forgotten the wagon double cost rule.


I'm sure you can understand that even if one knows all the rules, it's easy to forget one or two from time to time.

quote:

what I am seeing is people conducting their game/ operational moves based on a logistical system that does not act like that of any WW2 Army, so see little need to join in at that fruitless endeavour.


I'm not seeing that at all, but of course your mileage may vary and it's certainly 100% your choice what to do with your gaming budget.



Sure people make mistakes all the time.

The manual and explanations I have read indicate thatís the most likely outcome from the use of the probability, or JIT logistical methods, with its increased efficiency used instead of using WW2 methodology, by that I mean the daily requests of the days consumed unit of supply was passed up the chain, so if the Reg consumed 24 tons thatís what it requests, by the time it gets to Div itís a total of 72, so Corps arranges resupply of request in a standardised unit of supply that will exceed demand, by the next standard unit of supply for all forms of unit of supply, be it munitions, fuel etc, when it arrives, each Unit down the chain of command sends MTV equal to the tonnage it requested to the nearest 30 t, thatís the Standard unit of resupply assigned for the below that amount requested,so there is built in excess t assigned to transport, at every level of the chain of command, this is a linear use of planning constants, your always getting more than you requested as itís delivered in standard packed units that exceed the actual requested amount, this linear standard weight of supply was inferior JIT of today that matches expected actual need in almost real time.

So for me itís not a question of £, but if the 2 game is going to give me enough of a bump over keeping 1.

Will I get close to losses, by using the historical priority and sortie rates used, to the historical rates of airframes lost as I gave in the war room not bad t1 air thread?, are units expending close to the daily average tons of munitions I posted a while back?

A couple of other things, are you seeing something close to the German truck stock over time?
June194k
July 201k
Aug 212k
Sept 218k
Oct 223k
No data survived.
Jan 42 250k
Feb 262k
March 276k
April295k
May 303k
June 323k.

Or for instance the total number in June for trucks in the 3 GTR Army Regiments and LW Regiments, and Kraftwagon Transport Abet lung, being
Reg 602 Mil MTV4150 tons freight
Reg 605 civilian MTV 6000
Reg616 civilian MTV 9000
So Army transport from rail to depot MTV. 20k.

LW ditto 70k tons.

Civilian Kraftwagon Loading unloading of trains and aiding GTR to establish depot within 1 day of rail sidings storage, 37 k tons.

Total trucks for all depot forward lift 130k tons, is that close to what you see in the logistics phase, my guess itís not as I have concerns the game logistics is not acting close enough how it worked for the Germans, am I wrong or not?.

Are formations consuming POl close to historical rates?, June to Dec 41.
2 Army 99k tons
4th 79k tons
9th 90k

2 Pzr 111k
3Pzr 95k
4th Pzr 43k

total AGC POl 519k t, is your best guess AGC is in game consuming that level of POL, if it is I will consider a purchase, after house purchase is completed next week, if not close at as I suspect, Iíll wait till itís on sale.






< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/27/2021 10:34:46 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 25
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/27/2021 11:48:33 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 36054
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
Hi Hanny,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
So for me itís not a question of £, but if the 2 game is going to give me enough of a bump over keeping 1.


History has been the guide and the benchmark throughout in every aspect of the design. I can happily stand by the fact that WITE2 is the more realistic and historical wargame of the WW2 Eastern Front to date and is more realistic and historical than its predecessor WITE1 by a significant margin. Whether it's historical enough for you is very much a question you can only answer for yourself and given the degree of detail you are focused on, it's likely only you can answer that once you actually have the game. Nonetheless, I'll give your questions a try:

quote:

Will I get close to losses, by using the historical priority and sortie rates used, to the historical rates of airframes lost as I gave in the war room not bad t1 air thread?, are units expending close to the daily average tons of munitions I posted a while back?


With any wargame, the moment the player starts doing things differently than the historical commanders, it becomes hard to compare and there are certain aspects of the real world and the priorities of command that are difficult to enforce in a wargame. With that said, I've found that the losses over time are close to the historical levels, given historical usage of your forces. As with any Grigsby design, there is a lot of variance allowed in any single battle to allow the wide range of historical variation in results to also appear.

quote:

A couple of other things, are you seeing something close to the German truck stock over time?
June194k
July 201k
Aug 212k
Sept 218k
Oct 223k
No data survived.
Jan 42 250k
Feb 262k
March 276k
April295k
May 303k
June 323k.


This is almost impossible to do a true comparison on. In WITE2, you have 2.5 ton truck "equivalents". While the research was originally done to generate those, reverse-engineering that to compare them on a turn by turn basis with a raw aggregated total of "trucks" of unknown tonnage as you list above is beyond my capabilities.

quote:

Are formations consuming POl close to historical rates?, June to Dec 41.
2 Army 99k tons
4th 79k tons
9th 90k

2 Pzr 111k
3Pzr 95k
4th Pzr 43k

total AGC POl 519k t, is your best guess AGC is in game consuming that level of POL, if it is I will consider a purchase, after house purchase is completed next week, if not close at as I suspect, Iíll wait till itís on sale.


This is also highly dependent on the player's choices and actions and while the game has some excellent data and metrics on a higher level, it's not easy to separate out without having planned to record in advance what the usage of a single army was over time. I simply don't have time to load up every save from every turn in my last campaign between June and December and add up the fuel usage for AGC or 2nd Army, nor would it be a valid comparison unless I as a player did exactly what those formations did in history.

I can tell you that as a player, I ran my panzers around quite a lot and used up quite a bit of fuel. My Fuel Stores Required per turn seem to start around 184,402 per turn in June/July and end up stable at between 201k and 203k through December and January. I've been watching my overall pool of stored fuel decrease over that time with some concern as I've used more than I've produced pretty much every turn so far.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 26
RE: Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule - 3/29/2021 9:20:08 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
JHi Erik

Moving to our new house next Tues so may not have free time for a while, so will pick this up later and leave you with some further observations.Game uses MoGas and AvGas etc as the same fuel, I would of liked that to have changed for 2, which is why your not seeing a true production and consumption picture, and German for 41 was predicated on winning on accumulated stocks as demand vastly exceeded supply every month of 41, you can see this online at Haiti trust USSBS, look for the table on German production, consumption and stocks, AvGas MoGas and diesel, itís in months of the year so you will have to add some up.

What I meant up thread, AAR Panzer v Bear from Axis pov shows how people are conducting operations, by T2 the lead Panzer in AGS creates a vast pocket, itís 30 or so hexes from where it started, so has moved 300 straight line miles, 300 miles is the limit of aDiv operational movement for logistical supply, see V Crevald, on pre invasion planning to go 300 miles and then pauses, except it was allow rail conversion to catch up and allow resupply from rail heads, it prob spent 80 odd mps to do so so was well within its mps allocation, so converting mps to miles its more like 375 miles travailed, which is of course rather a lot less than the Ww2 rule of thumb of 2 miles cost to advance a mile.In T1 it was within air supply but beyond for cover, so any air resupply was a sitting duck, in T2 it was ether at the max range of air resupply or beyond it and again without air cover.

Where does it get its logistical supply from to perform this?, itís not like itís following a rail line, letís start with if its got 5 days supplies carried in the unit, so 1500 tons, and consumes 300 a day, if you look at the map the nearest depot canít help but still be from initial placement as the SU is blocking rail hexes, so itís coming from trucks from the unit to the depot, because thatís how they were trained to supply Div in the field, itís the GTR job to create depots away from rail lines to extend the daisy chain and establish depots closer to the units.What does that look like logistically?, imagine 14 dots in sequence, each dot is a day, and the distance between dots is 20 miles, this roughly gives us the Lead Panzer average position in space and time to end up where it does, each day it sends its supply columns back to get supplies after the Div has moved, so on D2 a 3 t truck moves back to depot and returns to Div, itís moved 40 miles, and delivered 3t and could do this function in the hours available to deliver 15 t, so demand is easily met, and stocks are not depleted, but by day 7 itís now travailing 280 miles in the same time, and delivering 3t a day, by end of week two itís delvering 3t every other day as the distance increases by a linear amount each day.By end of week two, stocks are reduced by 4 lost days supply leaving 1 days stocks on hand.Each truck has driven a min of 3640 miles, 10 times the mileage of the unit forward movement

In game we can see itís was a practical plan, on a historical logistical level, itís a massive gamble, I used 30 mph as an average speed for truck supply, which is giving them twice the German QMManual speed and three the UK QM speed, but not it appears so in game as you have in all probability unused mps, as in week 2 any number of small things can lead to running out of everything.

In the same way, similarly if you look macro picture at historical Army and Pzr Group fuel consumption, Pzr Group And Army fuel use is not dissimilar, and in game, are you seeing the same ratio of fuel usage, or if you looked at micro level and moved a Div 1 hex for letís say 2 mps, and noted its fuel and other supply cost for 10 miles, it would follow, if you moved 10 times the mps you get 10 times the supply demand so you can quickly validate in game to compare to historical data.Food for instance, 15 k manpower requires 22 t a day of food to be delivered, do you see that kind of level in game in the supply phase?, I doubt it, the manual tells us not enough detail to understand what is incorporated into the supply phase, let alone guesstimate it.

lastly I posted the historical GTR and civilian freight tonnage of trucks, itís carrying capacity of c130000 t from depots so you could compare to in game tonnage that is moved from depots, the number of trucks is another matter, that given in game as trucks in stock so is easy to compare.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/29/2021 12:52:56 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 27
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.219