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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/6/2021 11:35:40 AM   
stjeand


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France fell beginning of August...

NOW keep in mind I would consider myself an inexperienced newer player.
I have only played 2 games against a seasoned opponent.
Most of my games have been against newer players as I was...and I do not play as the Allies much at all, only once the game having gone past France and that was my very first game as the Allies I ever played. It went wrong in every way.

Here are the casualties






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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/8/2021 6:07:16 PM   
MorningDew

 

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Curious to learn what those of you testing this "All In" situation find with the new beta.


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/8/2021 6:59:43 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Looks like you will lose the whole front line in T1 of attack on France because there aren't any retreat paths - unless this is just a display formation.


Yes indeed

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/8/2021 9:38:35 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

France fell beginning of August...

NOW keep in mind I would consider myself an inexperienced newer player.
I have only played 2 games against a seasoned opponent.
Most of my games have been against newer players as I was...and I do not play as the Allies much at all, only once the game having gone past France and that was my very first game as the Allies I ever played. It went wrong in every way.

Here are the casualties







For someone with relatively little experience to cause those casualties against 1 of the game's best players, is telling about the OP nature of the 'all-in' strategy

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/9/2021 12:54:05 PM   
baloo7777


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

When is France falling?



I haven't commented or posted in a long time. I have almost stopped playing this game PvP. Just finishing up my last 2 PBEM's. I'll probably put this on the shelf for a while in favor of WiTE2.
In one of my current PBEM's as the Allies, France has just fallen in March 1941, and the Germans lost 2 armor/mech units to the British and French Armor (apparently the British 2-pounder was able to defeat the PZ III's). In the other as Allies, I have been able to severely damage the Wehrmacht in France, while still holding on to Egypt. France fell end of August.
I believe I posted months ago that I felt France was too strong and the British were sending 7-9 ground units plus 4-5 air units. I even saw a 16 factor Armor unit as a regular occurrence in France in June '40. I remember one time coming upon 3 Brit Armor + 1 Brit Mech AND the French Armor after my 5 Panzer Corps + 1 Mech Corps were at the 50- 70% effectiveness (chewed up going through Belgium/Northern France) and being decimated as the Axis. I complained in this forum. Mostly the replies were asking if I knew what I was doing (trucks/Infantry screens etc.).
Most comments were that experienced players got through France in July-August in pretty good shape. Now I see a bevy of players making the same point I did, and so now you weaken the Brits, which is good I suppose. BTW...I adopted the ahistorical British BEF for my allied games as that seemed the only way to keep up with the rest of the online PvP crowd. I guess I really prefer a more historical game than one I often referred to in my posts as "fantasy".


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/9/2021 2:41:28 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Like I said depending between skill, effort, and luck France should fall June to August, and really bad situation September. We start with small changes and see what happens.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/10/2021 2:51:49 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

Curious to learn what those of you testing this "All In" situation find with the new beta.



I have not tested Beta but with the calculator in hand we are talking about a penalty of approx 385pp (7 tank subfactors + 93 infantry subfactors), according to my current plan I can withdraw a troop from the Middle East without weakening it too much and spending less on supply trucks, So it seems to me that the current situation does not change much.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/10/2021 4:33:59 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

Curious to learn what those of you testing this "All In" situation find with the new beta.



I have not tested Beta but with the calculator in hand we are talking about a penalty of approx 385pp (7 tank subfactors + 93 infantry subfactors), according to my current plan I can withdraw a troop from the Middle East without weakening it too much and spending less on supply trucks, So it seems to me that the current situation does not change much.


That is my fear too. This is too easy to buy some replacements. If we remove one UK air superiority unit (250PP) and the UK WDF armored corps (360PP) from the beginning, it would change things a little more.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/15/2021 6:03:28 PM   
ncc1701e


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I don't think people realize what a big BEF can do and how easy it is for the Allies player to sacrifice the French units.
Even playing very carefully, here is the situation ending my turn.




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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/15/2021 6:04:01 PM   
ncc1701e


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And the next turn...




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RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/15/2021 6:06:45 PM   
ncc1701e


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Here is the situation at the beginning of my turn:
  • French are sacrificed on purpose.
  • All UK units still have some retreat paths.




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  • Post #: 191
    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/15/2021 8:04:29 PM   
    stjeand


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    Not to critic the set up...after the fact of course...

    The only thing I can see you could have changed was have the armor in the north further from the line and not have your infantry on hold.

    But I think something still would have been shattered and you would have lost more forward progress.






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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/17/2021 5:53:36 AM   
    LiquidSky


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    The 'secret' to defeating the French quickly is Armour. Disband all your bombers on the first turn. They are very useful units to be sure, but not as useful as the Panzers you will buy with them.

    Buy three panzer corps first turn. Then buy one a turn (disbanding infantry) until they will no longer show up as a reinforcement by May 1st. Then do the same buying Mech...one per turn.

    Keep the fighters. For May 1st I end up with 6 Panzer corps and 2 mech corps, with 6 Fighters. Along with another Panzer and Mech entered as reinforcement...

    You will have disbanded about a dozen or so infantry corps...but you will have 7 panzer corps and 3 mech corps..and the French front is very tight...you won't miss them.

    The lack of bombers will also mean the lack of air attrition...the allied fighters can't shoot down something that doesnt exist.

    The next turn you will punch a large hole in the french lines and take Lille. If the english are in France, you can play conservatively and kill them. If they are not, you will be adjacent to Paris. Third turn you take Paris if no English..otherwise you continue to kill them.

    Having breakthrough panzers with 10 attacks is huge. Once a unit is dislodged, it is no longer fortified, has suffered readiness and will die when a leap frogging panzer kills it.

    The big down side (of course) is no bombers. Which means you are relying on fighters to provide for you. I found that with my 6 fighters, I was able to gain an odds on my attack on Paris.

    It is June 21st and I have just installed Vichy and I am doing my turn. My friend knew what I was planning and wisely left the English out of France, so only the French suffered.




    Attachment (1)

    < Message edited by LiquidSky -- 4/17/2021 5:54:01 AM >


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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/17/2021 5:26:38 PM   
    ComadrejaKorp

     

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    After seeing how my game vs NCC as an Ally is developing, to test All-in defense, I have contrary thoughts.

    NCC has made a cautious attack protecting its tanks, advancing slowly but surely.
    Its casualties will be reasonable (+ -200 troops / + - 100 aviation) and France will fall in August.
    He can choose if he does not want Vichy because he has massacred the French, he has taken advantage of BOA which will prevent Uk from helping the Soviets a lot when Barbarrosa arrives.

    When you lose 4 tanks it is a big problem, NCC will only lose 4 Corps, I think this is not fatal.

    I think the real problem with the All-in defense is when the Axis player uses Blitzkrieg (except LiquidSky's Blitzkrieg), but NCC has made the smartest attack I've seen against this defense that I thought was insurmountable.

    My thoughts:

    So, all-in strategy does have defense.

    The future change in CV air power will help Axis gain air superiority, and Uk's initial troop reduction will also help make this defense even more risky for Allies.

    This game will be matched after the French campaign, and it remains to be seen how many English troops will be able to escape from France. We should see in several longer games what is the real long-term price that the Allies will pay for using this defense.

    But I'm worried that this defense will ruin the game anyway, because if France falls late and wears down Axis a lot, the game will only have one way for Axis (to conquer minor countries and wait for Barbarrosa, not Africa, not the Middle East, not SeaLion , not Spain) in short, few strategic options and that's not fun.

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/17/2021 6:22:47 PM   
    ComadrejaKorp

     

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    First of all congratulations on finding a method to defeat the French All-in defense.

    It is a very smart move, undoing 4 tactical bombers and 12 corps you lose 1680pp, but if you conquer France earlier and have fewer casualties, you recover a large part of the pp, although I would like to know if it is advantageous in the long term.

    If in 1939 Germany had focused on making only tanks but had given up all its bombers, would a result similar to the one you obtained in the attack on France been possible? Some players will say that without air support it would not have been possible, and others will say that with a smaller but more motorized army it would.

    I think the problem with your Blitzkrieg is the same as that of the All-in defense, both are strategies that would have been possible but are not completely realistic.

    Although I am a firm defender of not limiting the tactical and strategic possibilities of the game too much, I think that when you use any of these strategies in the game you lose a lot of the fun because they condition the game too much.

    I think that both strategies should have limitations so as not to spoil the game, not because of a question of legality but because of a question of playability.

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/17/2021 7:19:27 PM   
    Harrybanana

     

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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


    The 'secret' to defeating the French quickly is Armour. Disband all your bombers on the first turn. They are very useful units to be sure, but not as useful as the Panzers you will buy with them.

    Buy three panzer corps first turn. Then buy one a turn (disbanding infantry) until they will no longer show up as a reinforcement by May 1st. Then do the same buying Mech...one per turn.

    Keep the fighters. For May 1st I end up with 6 Panzer corps and 2 mech corps, with 6 Fighters. Along with another Panzer and Mech entered as reinforcement...

    You will have disbanded about a dozen or so infantry corps...but you will have 7 panzer corps and 3 mech corps..and the French front is very tight...you won't miss them.

    The lack of bombers will also mean the lack of air attrition...the allied fighters can't shoot down something that doesnt exist.

    The next turn you will punch a large hole in the french lines and take Lille. If the english are in France, you can play conservatively and kill them. If they are not, you will be adjacent to Paris. Third turn you take Paris if no English..otherwise you continue to kill them.

    Having breakthrough panzers with 10 attacks is huge. Once a unit is dislodged, it is no longer fortified, has suffered readiness and will die when a leap frogging panzer kills it.

    The big down side (of course) is no bombers. Which means you are relying on fighters to provide for you. I found that with my 6 fighters, I was able to gain an odds on my attack on Paris.

    It is June 21st and I have just installed Vichy and I am doing my turn. My friend knew what I was planning and wisely left the English out of France, so only the French suffered.



    I don't know if it is necessary to disband all the medium bombers and infantry LS. With my build plan (see my AAR) I can build 5 armour and 3 mech by the end of May with another mech arriving in June. Obviously not as strong as your 7 armour and 3 mech; but it does save 4 bombers and 12 infantry Corps.

    But if you are correct, than once again I lament the ineffectiveness of air units in this game compared to other unit types; particularly armour and mechanized.

    PS: We should play a game.

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/17/2021 9:24:05 PM   
    stjeand


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


    The 'secret' to defeating the French quickly is Armour. Disband all your bombers on the first turn. They are very useful units to be sure, but not as useful as the Panzers you will buy with them.

    Buy three panzer corps first turn. Then buy one a turn (disbanding infantry) until they will no longer show up as a reinforcement by May 1st. Then do the same buying Mech...one per turn.

    Keep the fighters. For May 1st I end up with 6 Panzer corps and 2 mech corps, with 6 Fighters. Along with another Panzer and Mech entered as reinforcement...

    You will have disbanded about a dozen or so infantry corps...but you will have 7 panzer corps and 3 mech corps..and the French front is very tight...you won't miss them.

    The lack of bombers will also mean the lack of air attrition...the allied fighters can't shoot down something that doesnt exist.

    The next turn you will punch a large hole in the french lines and take Lille. If the english are in France, you can play conservatively and kill them. If they are not, you will be adjacent to Paris. Third turn you take Paris if no English..otherwise you continue to kill them.

    Having breakthrough panzers with 10 attacks is huge. Once a unit is dislodged, it is no longer fortified, has suffered readiness and will die when a leap frogging panzer kills it.

    The big down side (of course) is no bombers. Which means you are relying on fighters to provide for you. I found that with my 6 fighters, I was able to gain an odds on my attack on Paris.

    It is June 21st and I have just installed Vichy and I am doing my turn. My friend knew what I was planning and wisely left the English out of France, so only the French suffered.




    quote:

    The next turn you will punch a large hole in the french lines and take Lille. If the english are in France, you can play conservatively and kill them. If they are not, you will be adjacent to Paris. Third turn you take Paris if no English..otherwise you continue to kill them.


    If you play certain people, missing all those infantry means there will be an invasion landing in Germany. That might be a counter.

    I think the bigger downside will be the USSR. Disbanding all your infantry will cost you heavily. You gain very little PP from France...so waiting to take it 2 months later means just a 100PP difference. That is not even a small corp.
    But I guess you will need to see in the game you are playing.

    There might be other ways to get what you are trying to do...I am playing around with a few.

    As Harry said...a game against others might be interesting.

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/18/2021 6:04:49 AM   
    LiquidSky


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    Well, I didn't disband all my infantry. I left full corps on the westwall, and had about 5-6 more to provide flank protection. As well I had even built 3 infantry corps that arrived in time for Case Yellow. A quick count shows I have about 20 infantry corps on the map.

    The amount of build points I lost would be 90 BPP per disbanded infantry. The Stuka's won't be replaced, but the bombers will, so that is a loss as well. But balanced with that is I hardly lost anything in France. And I never had to buy any trucks..in fact I only used 10 total and still have 30 left.

    There is about 24 turns until May 1941. I can build at least one infantry corp a turn, sometimes two. Which should give me a solid front against Russia. My opponent is no stranger to playing the Russians, so my game will pass/fail on the Eastern Front.



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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 1:59:01 PM   
    Flaviusx


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    Liquidsky, if the only way to counter the Allied all in is to trash the luftwaffe and a good chunk of your infantry to pile on panzers, I am back to advising people to play the 40 scenario.

    The answer to cheese is not more cheese. Just say no.

    39 scenario is broken.

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 5:30:29 PM   
    AlvaroSousa


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    Is this the official or the beta?

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 7:03:54 PM   
    willgamer


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

    ...

    The answer to cheese is not more cheese. Just say no.

    39 scenario is broken.


    In one sense, the 39 scenario is not broken. It's strong evidence of what could have happened except that it was politically impossible.

    The British populace and politicians would never have allowed the island to be stripped of defenses, much less agreeing to do away with their life supporting convoys.

    On the other hand for the Germans, disbanding large numbers of armaments and redeploying them is neither realistic or practicable in as short a period of time as allowed in the game.

    However, as Flaviusx stated, it is broken as a game.

    IMHO, it's not fixable short of adding real world restrictions to what could have been done.


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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 7:37:01 PM   
    Harrybanana

     

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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

    Is this the official or the beta?


    Official. I suggest we have to wait until enough people have played the beta to say if Alvaro's fix has resolved the problem or not.

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 7:49:16 PM   
    Harrybanana

     

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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: willgamer


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

    ...

    The answer to cheese is not more cheese. Just say no.

    39 scenario is broken.


    In one sense, the 39 scenario is not broken. It's strong evidence of what could have happened except that it was politically impossible.

    The British populace and politicians would never have allowed the island to be stripped of defenses, much less agreeing to do away with their life supporting convoys.

    On the other hand for the Germans, disbanding large numbers of armaments and redeploying them is neither realistic or practicable in as short a period of time as allowed in the game.

    However, as Flaviusx stated, it is broken as a game.

    IMHO, it's not fixable short of adding real world restrictions to what could have been done.



    No one has yet tried to use the All-In defence on me, but I have tried it myself (see my AAR with Hadros). Although Hadros lost 2 armour, 1 Mechanized and an infantry corps in France, I don't consider the game over yet. Even if I go on to win this game I personally would not consider the 39 scenario broken unless and until someone uses it on me.

    To me whether the game is broken or not depends on several factors including:

    1. How many units the Germans lose in France,
    2. How many units the UK loses in France, and
    3. How successful the BOA is as a consequence of the Brits not building escorts or MS in the early game.

    If the UK is sufficiently weakened in France then even if the Germans take exceptional losses they will still be able to field a sizeable army for Barbarossa because they will not need as many units to defend in the West. Alternatively, they could simply invade a weakened England in 41 and leave Russia for 42.

    If the 39 scenario is broken than my suggestions to fix it are:

    1. Change it so that shattered units are not permanently destroyed but return like overrun air units.
    2. Increase the effectiveness of air units. Since the Germans have more and better bombers this will help them in France.

    < Message edited by Harrybanana -- 4/19/2021 7:53:07 PM >

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 8:51:18 PM   
    ncc1701e


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    One suggestion for a better France 1940. Historically, once the front was broken, it was very difficult to establish a new defensive line for the French. Right now, the Germans are exhausting themselves to destroy all these French corps.

    What I am suggesting is to allow French to buy only armies or divisions. All the on-map units at the beginning of 1939 are either converted to armies or divisions. There is no possibility to merge French division into corps. French armies can't be splitted. And we increase the price of the French armies.

    This way, French will have less units and the gamey ant tactic will end. But we can still allow a French armored corps.

    Any objection?

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 10:17:57 PM   
    Nirosi

     

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    It could help. Worth a try certainly. I also like to allows the option for the French armor to exist the same way as for the German CV (among other examples) if a player so wishes as long as there is a reasonable opportunity cost.

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 10:38:50 PM   
    sillyflower


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    As I wrote initially, France '40 seems to be well-balanced when BEF commitment is reasonable, and I believe that is accepted. Certainly I don't think anyone has argued otherwise on this thread. Therefore, changes to weaken UK and France are going to make '40 a german walkover which will unbalance the game yet again for folk like me who don't use the 'all-in' exploit.

    Am I right or wrong?

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    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/19/2021 11:31:12 PM   
    AlvaroSousa


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    Some of you need to try the beta then.

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    Post #: 207
    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/20/2021 2:16:53 PM   
    Flaviusx


    Posts: 7738
    Joined: 9/9/2009
    From: Southern California
    Status: offline
    My own house rule for 39 scenario now: no more than 6 UK ground units in France before 1941. And that includes the HQ, so really it is 5 actual ground units. (If the British leave the HQ in the UK they cannot properly extend coverage in the hot zone east of Paris.) The British can still go mech heavy with this, but after reviewing the AARs I think that a properly executed all in needs 8+ UK ground units. The French infantry melts away fairly quickly and the British really need to throw in 5+ infantry corps to do a true all in. Otherwise they risk losing the BEF if they stick around too long.

    The other fixes suggested are all weird and convoluted and don't get at the basic problem: the BEF needs to be limited in size in 1940. Fix that, and the problem is solved.

    < Message edited by Flaviusx -- 4/20/2021 2:34:14 PM >


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    Post #: 208
    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/21/2021 9:01:21 AM   
    sillyflower


    Posts: 3509
    Joined: 8/4/2010
    From: Back in Blighty
    Status: offline
    Exactly!

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    Post #: 209
    RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/21/2021 3:10:36 PM   
    AlvaroSousa


    Posts: 9235
    Joined: 7/29/2013
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    In the beta the UK is reduced by 100 strength. I am considering adding an Italian modifier too like for the French. If Egypt has less than X units Italy can DOW.

    OR you can just play the Italian Option with the current Beta campaign and that should also fix it.

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