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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/31/2021 8:33:12 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

I would be happy to play someone that tries the rolling armor. I have tried that there is just does not seem to be enough hexes to do that in the front.
Maybe I am not playing well.


I guess we would need to test it. Maybe we just do not need a fix for it...Just play better.
I don't really use most of the UK starting units. I might use 1...but mostly just builds.

In the one I am playtesting I have...

UK 2 Armor / 2 Mech / 5 Inf
France 1 Armor and not sure...a lot of Inf.


Any screen shots? I want to see what you had set up...
How many trucks did you use? Honestly I stopped using them completely. Cost appears to be above the gain, at least for me but then maybe I am wrong as I went through 100 points in 3 turns. The return is just 2 more attacks per unit. Maybe that is good and what need to occur.

Not sure how you did not get the UK units to Africa though. As soon as a unit is worn...hit the rail lines to the south and transport out to Africa.

I will have to retest.




I wouldn't mind testing this as the German. While in my test game I took Paris, what I can't be sure of is whether the German suffered to much damage to be able to take on Russia. Also, whether they had the strength and time to take Egypt. The victory in France could easily be the place where the German Army is crippled. Might end up a short game.

Here is what my hot seat game looked like on May 10th. I think I moved over two more Br small Corps after this screen shot.








Attachment (1)

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Post #: 151
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/31/2021 9:41:46 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Sorry Silly but you have raised a very valid point with the all-in strategy but you are against weakening the UK, you are against weakening the Canadian, you are against weakening the French.
So, what shall we do? Boosting the Germans?

I am quite sure the in-game mechanisms won't allow to do a limitation of 4-5 UK corps in France in 1940. But, this is what I like in the game, you can do a strategy not based on events.





I am trying to help the axis out here by raising the issue

I am anti a tactic that can end the game in less than a year. That is nothing to do with there being a need to re-balance other matters. You may have a valid point about other allied:axis balance, but that has to be separate.

Clearly, if it is impossible to implement my proposal (and I know that Alvaro can enlighten us because he has the All-Seeing Eye on his roof), then we do need a different tool to solve to problem. Weakening the allies so that France will fall in 3 turns with my 5 xxx + HQ BEF isn't a good solution in my opinion.

I just don't have another trick up by me sleeve at the moment if there is no mechanism (perhaps supply if it can't be hard wired) to keep BEF to reasonable limits. Writing this, perhaps the UK army could be reduced at the start with a boost when France falls by manipulating the timing of the Home Guard units or something similar


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Post #: 152
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/31/2021 11:54:03 PM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

What I am doing

Fixing the French Fleet support from port issue. They shouldnt be able to

Air units now will only intercept naval when set to naval mission, but still support land. It will be just like supply interdiction.

I reduced the starting UK forces back to historical now that the game has been flushed out. I had to add to their forces to prevent an easy German invasion. But since we improved invasion rules and added naval rules I can put them back to historical. They will lose about 100 starting strength but all of these are repairs not raw builds. So this should put even more pressure on the decision to go all out in France or not. I don't want players quitting in August 1940 because it is too hard. Not fair to anyone. Like every game I make your decisions are a balance of give and take with a zero sum outcome if your opponent plays optimally. In this case how fast do you want France to fall? The range should be June to August.

Disposable French Fleet - I am considering how to implement a morale adjustment for lost ships for countries you can negotiate a surrender with. This basically would translate into a smaller Vichy, earlier surrender, or possible capture of naval groups for the Axis. Still deciding.


Has a Beta been created for this? I'm running 1.00.1, steam update.

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Post #: 153
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 2:21:24 PM   
stjeand


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quote:



I wouldn't mind testing this as the German. While in my test game I took Paris, what I can't be sure of is whether the German suffered to much damage to be able to take on Russia. Also, whether they had the strength and time to take Egypt. The victory in France could easily be the place where the German Army is crippled. Might end up a short game.



If the Germans did not lose any units then you should be good...

The issue is lost units.

In our testing 3 to 6 corps are lost...and usually 1 or 2 are armor. That ends the game.



(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 154
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 2:33:14 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Right now I am reading these posts and waiting for a couple players to send feedback on their game. Then probably Monday I will put up the 1st Beta.

I am also finishing the Pacific Gold version this weekend.

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Post #: 155
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 4:55:47 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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After the tests carried out against Hadros, Stjeand and NCC I think the biggest problem as indicated by NCC and now Hadros is that the Corps and armored units break very easily. The casualties may be bearable for the Axis but the loss of units is irreplaceable.

Of the proposed solutions, the one I like the most is to delay Allies technology, this would force to invest in escorts without delay and would make the fall of France easier, the All-in strategy would be a suicide.

What happens when there is no all-in strategy is that the surplus troops are sent to the Middle East, this in part would also be solved.

IMHO a possible easy solution would be to not let the Allied troops upgrade until the fall of France. It's that simple, without making any more changes.

I'm also concerned about how easy it is for tanks and Corps to break now due to the latest change: ´´ Losses have also been mitigated by 10% in the latest patch. So 10% of all land combat losses are reverted to effectiveness losses.´´

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Post #: 156
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 6:44:36 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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A shatter isn't a loss. It goes to the queue.

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Post #: 157
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 6:48:12 PM   
stjeand


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I have never had a shatter go to my queue...
Just overrunning of the air units will go to the queue.
Shatters always destroy the unit...same with surrender...same with destroyed.

If they went to queue that would be interesting but...

Anyone else have that happen?
Did something happen that remove this?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 158
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 6:52:28 PM   
Nirosi

 

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I thought that, according to manual, shatter means that you get back ~10% (not that much) of shattered steps both PP and MP wise if it was due to overwhelming odds or 90% if due to retreat over 2 hexes? So basically you get a small or large rebate to rebuilt it.

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Post #: 159
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 6:58:19 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

A shatter isn't a loss. It goes to the queue.


Sorry, I think you're confused (:

< Message edited by ComadrejaKorp -- 4/1/2021 6:59:23 PM >

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Post #: 160
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 6:59:46 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand
quote:



I wouldn't mind testing this as the German. While in my test game I took Paris, what I can't be sure of is whether the German suffered to much damage to be able to take on Russia. Also, whether they had the strength and time to take Egypt. The victory in France could easily be the place where the German Army is crippled. Might end up a short game.



If the Germans did not lose any units then you should be good...
The issue is lost units.
In our testing 3 to 6 corps are lost...and usually 1 or 2 are armor. That ends the game.


If you are losing German Armor units, then you must be putting them in areas where they can be attacked from multiple directions and/or have no valid retreat path. Generally I end my turns with the armor behind an infantry line or has a river in front of it or some other defensive boost. If the allies try to go on the offensive against such a line they will weaken their units so much that the counter attack will be a cake walk. Also I feed my armor a steady diet of Supply Trucks to offset the degradation movement and combat cause.

However, this is hard to confirm by hotseat since I just may not be using the right tactics for the Allies in France.

But this still means it takes through July to get Paris and the Germans will have a large production point cost to return all their units to full strength. Especially if the Allies push their Air campaign sense it seems to soak up a lot of replacement costs.

What I can't easily test with hot seat is which side came out on the short end of the stick. The Allies get to trade French for Germans which cost them nothing in the long term. But if the German's get a hold of the UK units they can do a lot of damage that the UK can't replace as quick as the Germans.

So the question is: If the German's take Paris by August how does that effect the game in the long term?
Can the UK defend Egypt?
Can the Germans and Italians take Egypt before the British can reinforce it?
Can the Germans support a Mediterranean plan and still be ready to invade Russia in 41?
Will the UK be able to survive in the Atlantic so it can lend any support to Russia?

There is also an alternate path for the Germans. A Mediterranean and Sealion path instead of invading Russia in 41.
In this they would take all of the Mediterranean including Gibraltar. This would allow them to use Italian troops to garrison France.
Against England do a mini-Sealion. Just take the cities and ports that don't trigger US bonuses. Just run around playing hell with the UK economy and destroying any units that come out of the VP cities. Basically turn the UK into an Italy like ally for the US.

Here is what the Allies had available by end of May 28 turn. I didn't move the Germans since I had to go back to the 5/10 save, just moved the allies. During this time the German's took the Netherlands and Belgium but weren't ready to attack France in strength until the June turn.








Attachment (1)

< Message edited by kennonlightfoot -- 4/1/2021 11:52:11 PM >

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Post #: 161
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 7:10:24 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Here is what my hot seat game looked like on May 10th. I think I moved over two more Br small Corps after this screen shot.





Only 6 UK units in France, you are far from the all-in strategy. Right now, I have 10 UK units in France.

_____________________________

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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 162
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 7:14:37 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

After the tests carried out against Hadros, Stjeand and NCC I think the biggest problem as indicated by NCC and now Hadros is that the Corps and armored units break very easily. The casualties may be bearable for the Axis but the loss of units is irreplaceable.

Of the proposed solutions, the one I like the most is to delay Allies technology, this would force to invest in escorts without delay and would make the fall of France easier, the All-in strategy would be a suicide.

What happens when there is no all-in strategy is that the surplus troops are sent to the Middle East, this in part would also be solved.

IMHO a possible easy solution would be to not let the Allied troops upgrade until the fall of France. It's that simple, without making any more changes.

I'm also concerned about how easy it is for tanks and Corps to break now due to the latest change: ´´ Losses have also been mitigated by 10% in the latest patch. So 10% of all land combat losses are reverted to effectiveness losses.´´


Or as I said reduce the number of labs for UK and for France. Oblige them to concentrate on something at the cost of another technology. We can perfectly divide the UK labs by two and add labs to UK two turns after each country surrender (Poland, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Yugoslavia, ...). Simulating scientists fleeing to UK...

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 163
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 7:25:49 PM   
stjeand


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quote:


So the question is: If the German's take Paris by August how does that effect the game in the long term?
Can the UK defend Egypt?
Can the Germans and Italians take Egypt before the British can reinforce it?
Can the Germans support a Mediterranean plan and still be ready to invade Russia in 41?
Will the UK be able to survive in the Atlantic so it can lend any support to Russia?

There is also an alternate path for the Germans. A Mediterranean and Sealion path instead of invading Russia in 41.
In this they would take all of the Mediterranean including Gibraltar. This would allow them to use Italian troops to garrison France.
Against England do a mini-Sealion. Just take the cities and ports that don't trigger US bonuses. Just run around playing hell with the UK economy and destroying any units that come out of the VP cities. Basically turn the UK into an Italy like ally for the US.


The UK has no issues in Africa from what I can see. I usually have 3 to 4 corps down there before the Germans take Paris. They can be small corps because the Italians can't do much without the Germans.
And the supply issues for the Axis means they have to take Alexandria or they can't fight there.

The only time I can ever do okay in Africa is if the Allies forget Syria...which is rare.
I did it once...and won't again.

Sealion has a shot...but again most of the UK units get out and go to Africa or to the UK and some are usually guarding ports and can get back to assist quickly. Not sure the Germans have the economy to try both but could be tried.
So there might be 10 corps in France...lets say 8 get out...4 go back to the UK...and 4 go to Africa. Yes they are damaged and their effectiveness is way down...but then so is the Germans when they send armor to Africa.

But these have been my experiences.

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Post #: 164
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 7:37:43 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

The only time I can ever do okay in Africa is if the Allies forget Syria...which is rare.
I did it once...and won't again.


Same here

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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 165
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 7:41:40 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

Or as I said reduce the number of labs for UK and for France. Oblige them to concentrate on something at the cost of another technology. We can perfectly divide the UK labs by two and add labs to UK two turns after each country surrender


I think it is better to leave the investigation as it is, so as not to create new problems.

Maybe as a first step, only not allow to use the updates until the fall of France?
Weaker France
Weakest RAF
France falls on a historic date
Germany less casualties

But trouble, Yugoslavia and Greece will fall easy, and All-in France will move to All-In Middle East.

The more I think about it, the more difficult I see a solution that does not unbalance the game at some point in the game.

Some kind of BEF and Middle East troop limit?

I think I'll let someone smarter than me fix it (:

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Post #: 166
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 9:20:12 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

A shatter isn't a loss. It goes to the queue.


Sorry, I think you're confused (:
[/quote

I'm sure Alvaro wrote somewhere that after a shatter you get a small % of PP of those steps not already killed

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 167
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 9:28:32 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

A shatter isn't a loss. It goes to the queue.


Sorry, I think you're confused (:


I'm sure Alvaro wrote somewhere that after a shatter you get a small % of PP of those steps not already killed


Yes, but this is not the deployment queue.


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 168
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/1/2021 9:49:32 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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All those are Large Corps. I brought over two more Small Corps leaving only divisions in UK and Middle East. Only way I can see more than the final 2 Armor, 1 Mech and six Infantry Corps (1 HQ also shipped in and 1 UK Corps is off this screen shot) would be for UK to either produce some infantry at the price of lower Production inventory to replace loses or strip UK of more divisions.

I didn't try for more infantry because I didn't see how they could contribute that much compared to keeping the two armor and one mech with supply trucks and replacements. Maybe be wrong in this but that is why it needs testing against an opponent who will probably make different decisions.

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Post #: 169
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/4/2021 5:59:51 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Tonight I need to have basically the GOLD version of WarPlan Pacific ready. Then I will address this issue and upload a beta scenario, possibly a game beta also sometime next week.

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Post #: 170
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/4/2021 6:31:19 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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Some reason my screenshot didn't load on previous post. This shows what I was able to deploy to France my end of May 10. I didn't show the German moves but on May 10 they took Nederland and Belgium, so this would be what the Allies have to build a line around to receive the German attack into France.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by kennonlightfoot -- 4/4/2021 6:32:25 PM >

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Post #: 171
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/5/2021 8:06:50 AM   
sillyflower


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Looks like you will lose the whole front line in T1 of attack on France because there aren't any retreat paths - unless this is just a display formation.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

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Post #: 172
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/5/2021 6:20:24 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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I didn't try to set up to do anything. Just showing the units available.

It probably is possible to get more into France if the UK is willing to risk Egypt and possibly England to do it.
France seems to be limited by logistics.

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Post #: 173
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/5/2021 7:24:47 PM   
stjeand


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Yes France runs out of logistics...so I normally build a set or two of trucks for them to use.

I had the following:

UK forces:
France, 2 armor, 2 mech, 5 large inf corps.
Egypt, 2 large inf corps, 1 small inf corps, all ports have divisions. (One large corps to take Syria the other on the front line dug in with the small corps)
UK, 1 Large inf corp in London, 1 small inf corp and divisions in all the ports

As units get damaged they go back to the UK to heal up other than one armor and one mech that head to Egypt, maybe more depending upon the situation.

At least that is the plan.

Now could Germany invade the UK? Maybe...they could try but they have to take the French coast first. And at the moment the British navy is in the channel.


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Post #: 174
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/5/2021 7:28:29 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Now could Germany invade the UK? Maybe...they could try but they have to take the French coast first. And at the moment the British navy is in the channel.



That is one of the counters. Then land an armor and roll over everything.


_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
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- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
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(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 175
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/5/2021 7:39:01 PM   
stjeand


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Well all their armor is busy in France and they need a coastal port.

Perhaps with two fresh large infantry corps...and a couple French ports they could. But they have to get by 3 carriers...the entire Royal Navy and French navy then dislodge a division in a single attack. Odds are they will get damaged on the way in. BUT it is possible.

That is a tough order though...and in looking at what I did...I would have small corps in most of the southern ports. I did not notice I have a few that I could use.

More than likely I would have a little less in Egypt because the Italians can't do much...and god knows I have tried.

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Post #: 176
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/5/2021 9:34:10 PM   
stjeand


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So just completed the campaign in France with ComadrejaKorp.

He went hard in the attack.

Final losses.

Germany:

3 Large Inf Corps
1 Paratrooper
1 Armor

UK losses:

2 Fighters overrun but will return in time, poor placement by me.
All units should get out. One large Inf corp will end up in the deployment queue I believe.

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Post #: 177
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/5/2021 10:13:47 PM   
sillyflower


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Can you post the losses screen please.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 178
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/5/2021 11:06:50 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

So just completed the campaign in France with ComadrejaKorp.



When did France fall?

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Post #: 179
RE: How to ruin the game? - 4/6/2021 12:06:56 AM   
lion_of_judah


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My current game, I was able to bring the Spanish in, thereby creating a new front and it seemed to help in the beginning. It failed though, as I was too slow in bringing on break through forces in to exploit major gaps in the French line. Second, the Spanish are too fragile to put up any real fight. Though the Spanish did take a couple of French cities in the south before getting their butt stomped in late 1944.

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Post #: 180
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