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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 3:49:26 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: generalfdog

I disagree with the premise that France is to hard to take, yes if the Allied player is good and goes all in they can delay the Germans and with an inexperienced German player even hold it, but that is historical the fall of France was not a forgone conclusion, the downside for the Allies is going all in on France is risky if you lose to many Brits, strip the middle east or, don't build escorts the allies are risking serious consequences if the longshot gamble fails.


This is correct. As the Italians you can counter this buy building landing craft and landing in Syria, Palestine, Egypt if they go all out. If they ignore the uboat war they will be crippled. While loading up France is a good idea there is still balance in how.

With hindsight I expect France to fall July or August depending on the skill level of the German player.

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(in reply to generalfdog)
Post #: 31
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 5:05:54 PM   
sillyflower


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Not really Alvaro because this strategy stops G from taking Paris before they are trashed, so the Italians are no help. Also as ComadrejaKorp has explained, he put 3 canadian xxx into the middle east by July '40 so Italians won't get far.

The fact is, the current arrangements encourage this problem in France and it it is a game-breaker. If you don't believe it, perhaps you should try playing G for 12 months vs Comad etc or stjeand and see how you do as G. I'll play allied if you like - now I know how it's done.

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Post #: 32
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 5:19:10 PM   
ncc1701e


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Good idea, a match ComadrejaKorp (Allies) - Alvaro (Axis). The first 27 turns of the game.

The thing is I don't give up myself. In my current AAR, I will try to avoid doing mistakes.

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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 33
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 5:20:04 PM   
stjeand


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I am more than happy to play the Allies to validate the all in strategy. You will even know this ahead and can build what you want for the Italians hoping to attack whereever.
I will be glad to put up the AAR too.

Keep in mind when I tried this...I has played a total of zero games against players. Only one player out of 3 actually took France and he had started attacking in Oct of 39 after I made a tactical error on the border.

I am sure ComadreKorp would have taken France...but his loses were going too be overwelming for the future to continue. Same for me attacking him.
I believe he had 10 UK corps in France and 5 in the Middle East.
I had 3 UK armor, 1 UK Mech and 1 French Mech, and 4 or 5 UK Inf corps And there were at least 3 UK corps in the UK and 3 in the Middle East.

My BOA was not making a scratch against his MM...I believe by the end of 39 I had not sunk 12 of MM...my BOA luck is far from good or even near average. I have to figure out what I may be doing wrong.




NOW I do not plan to play this way anymore but knowing human nature and desire to win...heck who would not?

I just wanted to bring this up...

Whose up for a test game?


(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 34
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 5:34:52 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

NOW I do not plan to play this way anymore but knowing human nature and desire to win...heck who would not?

I just wanted to bring this up...


Why? The game allows it. Alvaro must be right, personally, I am not skilled enough that's all.
I will see in my current game with ComadrejaKorp.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 35
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 5:37:40 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Not really Alvaro because this strategy stops G from taking Paris before they are trashed, so the Italians are no help. Also as ComadrejaKorp has explained, he put 3 canadian xxx into the middle east by July '40 so Italians won't get far.

The fact is, the current arrangements encourage this problem in France and it it is a game-breaker. If you don't believe it, perhaps you should try playing G for 12 months vs Comad etc or stjeand and see how you do as G. I'll play allied if you like - now I know how it's done.


Alvaro

I've just noticed that you've got Pacific coming out next month, so it's not fair to ask you put in much time on this issue

I'm happy to take on any other Nazi who thinks he can beat this strategy, and to do an AAR

_____________________________

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 36
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 5:44:25 PM   
stjeand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

NOW I do not plan to play this way anymore but knowing human nature and desire to win...heck who would not?

I just wanted to bring this up...


Why? The game allows it. Alvaro must be right, personally, I am not skilled enough that's all.
I will see in my current game with ComadrejaKorp.



Because I like to play the game. It is no fun to take them out in 40...Never get to see what happens in the USSR.




(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 37
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 5:48:12 PM   
stjeand


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I just created a game...I am the Allies...

Password is: TestUKAllIn

Okay that is tough to read...Test UK All In



(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 38
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 5:48:39 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Not really Alvaro because this strategy stops G from taking Paris before they are trashed, so the Italians are no help. Also as ComadrejaKorp has explained, he put 3 canadian xxx into the middle east by July '40 so Italians won't get far.

The fact is, the current arrangements encourage this problem in France and it it is a game-breaker. If you don't believe it, perhaps you should try playing G for 12 months vs Comad etc or stjeand and see how you do as G. I'll play allied if you like - now I know how it's done.


Alvaro

I've just noticed that you've got Pacific coming out next month, so it's not fair to ask you put in much time on this issue

I'm happy to take on any other Nazi who thinks he can beat this strategy, and to do an AAR


I think ComadrejaKorp can beat it. Am I wrong Alex?


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 39
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 6:13:24 PM   
stjeand


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He would have beaten it in our game...and I do not feel I was as all in as he was. I still had a UK armor in England that I could have brought over.
But he had lost 3 Inf Corps and an Armored corps. Should have been 2 armor but I failed to understand supply once again and suicided my full strength UK Mech.

The Germans can't lose 5 or 6 corps taking France and have a chance...In my eyes they can't lose anything corps if they want to win.

I lost a Mech against Silly and a whole lot of planes...and think that may be too much for the USSR. BUT we will see in a couple of months as this is my first game with the new rules getting that far.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 40
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 6:18:48 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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Warplan is the game that I have played the longest, and the one that I have had the most fun with, it seemed to have no end due to its depth and variety of possible strategies, but the possibility of this defense ruins the game, as our beloved Sillyflower says.

The solution to this problem is difficult, I think that with 6 UK units (you can easily manufacture for the French campaign: 2 tanks, 2 mechanized and 2 troops) it is enough to ruin the Axis game.

My solution is complex and I do not know if it is possible, it would be to apply limitations to each country in the number of units that can be built each type, this could also help to solve other complaints that have been expressed in this forum such as the early appearance of Paratroopers Allies, the exaggerated use of supply trucks or landing ships.

for example:
1939 paratroopers: france 0 / uk 1 / germany 2 / italy 0
1940 paratroopers: France 1 / UK 2 / Germany 3 / Italy 1

Other limited units should be:
Tanks / Mechanized / Landing Ships / Supply Trucks

By limiting build of UK units in 1939 they could not have tanks for the French campaign and by limiting troops they could not protect their colonies if they were sent to France. (This would create a surplus of pp to Uk that could be used in the future, so that all these pp would not go to BoA and ruin it, also production of escorts / mm / ASW should be limited).

It seems to me that this would require a lot of coding and testing work, but I can't find another solution to this difficult problem.

< Message edited by ComadrejaKorp -- 3/24/2021 6:22:54 PM >

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 41
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 6:26:24 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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So I ask again... when does France fall? If it is July/August it is right.

Losses have also been mitigated by 10% in the latest patch. So 10% of all land combat losses are reverted to effectiveness losses.
U-boats are cheaper to repair.
Air requires no manpower to repair.

While France might be slightly tougher the Eastern Front game will/should be more balanced.

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- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
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(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 42
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 6:27:39 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

I think ComadrejaKorp can beat it. Am I wrong Alex?


IMHO that anyone who copies the defense of your AAr will win over any Axis player, depending on the Allies player's ability, France may fall but Axis will end up too damaged to survive the following years.

< Message edited by ComadrejaKorp -- 3/24/2021 6:30:41 PM >

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 43
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 6:29:53 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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The problem is that France does not fall! or if it falls, it is late and with unaffordable losses for the Axis.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 44
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 6:39:06 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

I'm happy to take on any other Nazi who thinks he can beat this strategy, and to do an AAR


I think ComadrejaKorp can beat it. Am I wrong Alex?


Hahaha, sorry I misunderstood the question !!

Yes, I have a strategy to beat this defense, the problem is that it would only work once, due to the surprise factor, and I'm not sure if the losses that Axis would suffer would allow him to survive.

I've only used it once playing against BattlevonWar.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 45
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 6:46:37 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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Anyone got a link showing what the Allied player is able to put into France just before the weather clears for the Axis assault?
Like to take a look at trying to duplicate it to see what the German can do against it.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 46
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 6:56:37 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Anyone got a link showing what the Allied player is able to put into France just before the weather clears for the Axis assault?
Like to take a look at trying to duplicate it to see what the German can do against it.


Perhaps here - was it the all out strategy?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4985595

I replicate with success against my poor Axis opponent so far.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 47
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 7:05:57 PM   
stjeand


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quote:

Losses have also been mitigated by 10% in the latest patch. So 10% of all land combat losses are reverted to effectiveness losses.


Alvaro the losses are not damage but lost corps. I don't mind taking damage I expect it...

But losing 2+ corps, and almost always at least one armor is a problem for the Germans.


SO damage changed to more effectiveness losses? Well that hurts even more. To me repair was cheap...getting back the effectiveness is time and time is what the Germans do not have.
With truck changes my armor is crippled by July. Most of the German armor is down in the 50% after a few turns in France...By July they are in the 30s....I had one down to 18% at one point.



We wish to be part of the solution not the problem and this is a brainstorming session.

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Post #: 48
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 8:12:27 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

With truck changes my armor is crippled by July. Most of the German armor is down in the 50% after a few turns in France...By July they are in the 30s....I had one down to 18% at one point.


True, the change in supply trucks contributes to Germany not having enough punch for France.
On the other hand, for Barbarossa it worked well, maybe limit them so that they work well in the two campaigns?

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 49
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 8:37:18 PM   
ncc1701e


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A side effect is that Red Army land units deployed on the map is taking less losses and, as such, their experience is slower to increase.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4962490

But, as you said, it works well for Barbarossa.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 3/24/2021 8:39:52 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 50
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 8:44:07 PM   
ncc1701e


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ComadrejaKorp / stjeand, just for information, what are your advancements level for UK and France? Can you post a screen just before May 1940 please?

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 51
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 9:25:57 PM   
stjeand


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Sadly I ended those games but...

France had Assault and Anti-tank 40 for me as well as Heavy Armor. Don't remember interceptors.

UK had 40 for Assault and Heavy Armor...and I believe 41 for interceptors.


We are going to play a test game with some restriction...just not sure what yet.

In the real war the UK only sent 11 divisions to France...but France had more than they can make...but I will have to verify.
And Germany took 4 weeks to take them out. Here it takes 3 months at least, which is okay...but normally it is 4 or 5 months.

Some games limit where the UK can place their units...say only in the north for quick evac.



(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 52
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 9:31:01 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ComadrejaKorp / stjeand, just for information, what are your advancements level for UK and France? Can you post a screen just before May 1940 please?


I have tried it many times, France gets progress in all technologies right on that date, in our game, I only need to update antitank that has 11 days left.
UK also receives their updates on this date, although they can afford a delay as they are in the rear.

Only once did I receive French anti-tank update in mid-June, it was against stjeand, but I put the English infantry in the front line (I replaced English garrisons in the UK with French garrisons) this gave me time for the French to update and the defense worked and the game was ruined.

It really hurt the eye to see Uk full of blue spots! But as Stjeand said some players do everything that the game allows us to win, I understand that it can annoy, but also annoying that they lower their arms at the first problem.

Since the previous version where this defense already worked, it seemed very difficult for the Axis to conquer France, but it was really in this game where I discovered that it really is a big problem, because it worked, although I had bad cards and against a rival possibly better player than me.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 53
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 10:18:26 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand




We are going to play a test game with some restriction...just not sure what yet.




The problem seems to be that Alvaro does not think that there's a problem because of the date the games finish, whereas the problem is leaving G too weak and games end in a G resignation. A test with restrictions is not a test of the problem, which is what needs to be done to prove that the problem exists.


_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 54
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 10:19:29 PM   
ncc1701e


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But, is it not one possible solution? Limit the number of labs for UK and for France? In 1940, it was said that the French were fighting like in 1914-1918. If the bulk of the French army is still in 1939 whereas Germans are in 1940, it may help.

Also, CV strikes plus naval bombardments to destroy armor corps... I am doing it now and this is effective (a little too much imo).

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 55
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 10:26:34 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

Limit the number of labs for UK and for France? In 1940,


Sounds like a really cool idea to me! And a more real solution than mine, Uk can help France as much as he wants but pay a high price!

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 56
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 10:49:16 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

We are going to play a test game with some restriction...just not sure what yet.


The problem seems to be that Alvaro does not think that there's a problem because of the date the games finish, whereas the problem is leaving G too weak and games end in a G resignation. A test with restrictions is not a test of the problem, which is what needs to be done to prove that the problem exists.


Yeah no restrictions, give everything the Allies has...

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 57
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 11:08:18 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

Limit the number of labs for UK and for France? In 1940,


Sounds like a really cool idea to me! And a more real solution than mine, Uk can help France as much as he wants but pay a high price!


Thanks my idea like this is for the UK player to choose between naval, air or land technology but not all like today.
They want Heavy Armor 1940 and Interceptor 1941 for doing a good France 1940, fine but they won't have Convoy Escort or Detection & Electronics right away.

And for France, limit them as well to barely max out only one technology. Anti-Tank 1940 fine but no Interceptor 1940.

Just an idea.


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 58
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 12:24:24 AM   
Ancient One

 

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France begins with several corps that have 50% experience (mostly on the Maginot Line). I suggest this be reduced to 40% like the others.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 59
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 12:52:19 AM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Anyone got a link showing what the Allied player is able to put into France just before the weather clears for the Axis assault?
Like to take a look at trying to duplicate it to see what the German can do against it.


Perhaps here - was it the all out strategy?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4985595

I replicate with success against my poor Axis opponent so far.


Has anyone posted it from the Allied view point?
It is hard to tell whether it was achieved by a whole lot of divisions or by moving every UK Corps side unit into France. Which would make it an all or nothing strategy. Win in France or lose Africa and Battle of the Atlantic.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 60
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