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How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 6:47:15 PM   
sillyflower


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The latest fad is apparently for the allies to go all out to defend France from the very beginning. Result from games where this happens is Germans ending up too battered and the game effectively at an end. The strategy works because once you decide to use it, you can then spend all your UK PPs to that end - no wasting PPs on BOA because yo won't need to fight it. Not much the germans can do especially with the trucks nerf (with which I should say I agree with).

I won't do that defence nor would I play anyone using it either (full disclosure: I don't play PvP as axis so this is a theoretical statement).

I don't know what the solution is whilst not giving germans a walkover against less gamey allied players. An obvious one would be to put % limits UK on spending on air, land and sea units until a certain date, but that doesn't fit at all with the zeitgeist of the game even if it could be implemented. Limiting no. of UK forces in France in by way of supply limits (both ordinary and oil) would work in theory, without nerfing UK production. I have had another thought about garrison requirement in UK + Middle East like the French requirements. It would have the advantage that it would use an existing mechanism, but I'm not sure what the penalty for breach of the requirement would be. It might be difficult to balance this requirement so as to allow a reasonable BEF AND to require garrisons sufficient to stop the BEF spam.

I'm glad I'm not Alvaro................


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 7:08:28 PM   
stjeand


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Sadly I am one that has been guilty of that. So far only one person has gotten through France unscathed but that was my first game played as the Allies and I made very mistake in the book.


I have been talking to others about this. I know you want players to be able to do whatever they like...but then that creates this. Games that last 30 turns. Luckily Silly saw fit to let me through France and on to an attack on the USSR...though might be that to much damage has been done already. I am not used to having trucks that are no longer overly useful so I no longer use them. Too costly for almost no gain. I do have some for that couple turn push but we will see how it goes in the USSR with all the new terrain.


From what I could tell history wise...the British did not think that the Germans would do anything much in France...so did not send much as units. In this game you can sent 15 full corps at least...and that is just doom for the Germans.

So do you allow the player to shake hands and say hey...just X UK units in France or do you put some limit on what can and can not be done.

Options NOT listed in any order...just ones I can think of.

1) Limit UK manpower heavily and they receive gains like the Germans do later in the game? Could be a bit more realistic as I do not think that the UK fully mobilized due to their belief things would just settle down.

2) You have to Garrison the UK? But how do you force this? What penalty is there? It is not like you can say the Italians will join in...so what.

3) Limit of units in France. Possible. Could say it is a supply / logistic thing early in the war that they were to busy all over the world with their colonies to supply a dozen corps in France.

4) Plays shake hands and just say...okay X units can go into France. BUT the UK the had a LOT of Corps that they can send elsewhere still. No need for a "heavy" defense in the UK...a few full corps should be enough to keep the Germans from Sealion.


I will have to spend some time doing a little research.

I think things are much more difficult in France now than before and we will see if it is worse in the USSR.

Winter is coming.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 8:09:06 PM   
ncc1701e


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As I said in my current AAR, yes, it would be great to implement a garrison requirement for UK in Egypt.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4984415

Also, we can play on few things. In 1939, 1940, no offense but the British had not the knowledge for armor warfare yet. We can do the same than for USSR, the based experience of British land units is down to 40% and it will increase with fighting to a maximum of 50%.

And the experience of the armored and some infantry corps on the map at start is now down to 35%. This way, British will learn by fighting. We help the Axis to advance in France 1940 but not later in North Africa 1940/1941.
Currently, all British units are at 50% experience at start even the armored corps.

Since UK needs to buy patrol ships, we cannot reduce PP or manpower.

EDIT: And, by the way, we can do the same for Canadian units, reducing their based experience to 45% and increasing it by fighting to a maximum of 50% just like the USA.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 3/23/2021 8:14:54 PM >


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 8:38:07 PM   
ncc1701e


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Also, I would like to suggest reducing the speciality production of UK and France. Right now at start:

UK - 12 points
France - 9 points
USA - 2 points
USSR - 5 points
Canada - 4 points

Like this, no more Elite or Tank Destroyer corps for British and French in 1940.


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 8:43:26 PM   
ncc1701e


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And since ComadrejaKorp is reading, I would like him to do the best ruining defense in France for 1940:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4984193



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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 8:53:46 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

2) You have to Garrison the UK? But how do you force this? What penalty is there? It is not like you can say the Italians will join in...so what.


You can perfectly say that the Italians will declare war and race for Egypt since there is no unit there.
This, plus a little uprising in Iraq with few units popping up in Mosul and Basra to cut their oil supply.

EDIT: Sorry I misread. This is for the Middle East garrison requirement.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 3/23/2021 8:54:50 PM >


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 8:58:11 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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This is a big problem, it really ruins the game, as a first step I would like to limit the units that can be sent to France in 1940 and see how it goes, then you could try to lower your base experience a bit, but this would be a second step.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 9:04:32 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Give players time to come up with answers to this strategy, before making any changes to the game. Players are always free to mod the game to try out different approaches, or use house rules.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 9:10:06 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

As I said in my current AAR, yes, it would be great to implement a garrison requirement for UK in Egypt.


You are wrong, the Allies have strength to spare, in our game for July there will be 3 full UK corps in Africa and 3 from Canada, plus 2 HQ, plus 2 UK divisions in Cyprus.
The idea is that when France falls, it will further reinforce the Middle East with surviving forces.
Uk doesn't require a great defense, I don't think it's very smart for Axis to provoke US early entry.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 9:20:13 PM   
stjeand


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OH I am more than happy to do that. But if no one you can play can get through France, or if they do they have lost 5 or 6 German corps...they have already lost.

My suggestion is to test something like this ourselves. Perhaps pick a number of units that the UK can send to France.

In 1940 the UK sent 11 Divisions to France, which would be easy to limit...

Now the French had over a hundred, which they can't have in the game.
The Germans attacked with 130+ divisions and took France in a Month, which I don't think they can have in the game either, nor actually attack with that many.

You are lucky...and I mean LUCKY to take France in 3 months in this game. It is just not possible with a decent defense. Units are good but not that good and wear down to quickly and a humans know what not to do.

I will keep reading.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 9:38:41 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

And since ComadrejaKorp is reading,


Of course I read you, always!
I think we were the first to set a maximum date for the fall of France as a house rule, although it didn't work.
Next we can try limiting UK troops in France.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 10:17:02 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

As I said in my current AAR, yes, it would be great to implement a garrison requirement for UK in Egypt.


You are wrong, the Allies have strength to spare, in our game for July there will be 3 full UK corps in Africa and 3 from Canada, plus 2 HQ, plus 2 UK divisions in Cyprus.
The idea is that when France falls, it will further reinforce the Middle East with surviving forces.
Uk doesn't require a great defense, I don't think it's very smart for Axis to provoke US early entry.


Perhaps this is the problem. UK has to many infantry corps at start. If, for example, we replace all the British infantry corps on the map in September 1939 by infantry division.

Hex 129, 70 -> small corps now a division
Hex 135, 64 -> small corps now a division
Hex 132, 63 -> Large corps at 5/30 now a division
Hex 130, 56 -> Large corps at 10/30 now a division
Hex 134, 57 -> Large corps at 10/30 now a division
Hex 140, 58 -> Large corps at 10/30 now a division

The British will first have to strengthen their country before France.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 10:22:12 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

OH I am more than happy to do that. But if no one you can play can get through France, or if they do they have lost 5 or 6 German corps...they have already lost.

My suggestion is to test something like this ourselves. Perhaps pick a number of units that the UK can send to France.

In 1940 the UK sent 11 Divisions to France, which would be easy to limit...

Now the French had over a hundred, which they can't have in the game.
The Germans attacked with 130+ divisions and took France in a Month, which I don't think they can have in the game either, nor actually attack with that many.

You are lucky...and I mean LUCKY to take France in 3 months in this game. It is just not possible with a decent defense. Units are good but not that good and wear down to quickly and a humans know what not to do.

I will keep reading.


Maybe I am wrong but I have the feeling that armor corps are not strong enough in 1939/1940.

Historically, infantry were quite afraid by tanks. But, later in the war, infantry learned tactics with new weapons like bazooka to handle the tank threat.

For me, seeing armored corps shattering on an infantry counter attack in France 1940 is quite unhistorical.


< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 3/23/2021 10:23:10 PM >


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 10:28:00 PM   
sillyflower


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Lots of helpful thoughts

I'm against reducing UK experience levels because that will change the game way beyond the France problem Would make it much easier for axis to overrun the middle east for example and then do a '42 Barbarossa with lots of petrol. Solves 1 problem then creates another. Same problem with manpower changes.

Re early experience, I think the British army pre-war was the only regular arm, and was initially filled out by reservist and Territorials ( 'the weekend soldiers'), so not a bunch of conscripts on a par with continental armies of France, Belgium, Holland and Italy.

For what it is worth, I never put more than 1 HQ, 4 inf xxx and 1 mech xxx in France. Occasionally a fighter or 2 but usually none.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 10:43:05 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

As I said in my current AAR, yes, it would be great to implement a garrison requirement for UK in Egypt.


You are wrong, the Allies have strength to spare, in our game for July there will be 3 full UK corps in Africa and 3 from Canada, plus 2 HQ, plus 2 UK divisions in Cyprus.


full corps from Canada? They start with 1 at 1/3rd strength so about 60 point to fill then 2 more costing 360 PPs. At 18 per turn that's 23 turns so means no escort buying or upgrades before August '39. That means you lose BoA if you didn't beat the Germans into a pulp in France so you don't need escorts. With my suggestion of limiting BEF size, you can do that and risk the consequence at sea without disturbing the game balance.


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 15
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 10:47:25 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

full corps from Canada? They start with 1 at 1/3rd strength so about 60 point to fill then 2 more costing 360 PPs. At 18 per turn that's 23 turns so means no escort buying or upgrades before August '39. That means you lose BoA if you didn't beat the Germans into a pulp in France so you don't need escorts. With my suggestion of limiting BEF size, you can do that and risk the consequence at sea without disturbing the game balance.


Just send PP from UK to Canada and you can have three corps easily in 1940. Canada has the manpower.

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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 11:32:30 PM   
michaelCLARADY

 

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Suggestion here- on the turn that both of these conditions are fulfilled at the end of the allied turn-

1) Lilly is axis controlled

2) One or more axis armour/mech units are within three hex of Paris

all allied units get retreated prior to the start of the next axis south of the Seine or east of the Meuse whichever distance is shorter. This to be done by the AI much like the goings on when Vichy is declared. Rationale? In the real world the feckless French leaders did declare Paris an open city and the end came soon after that.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/23/2021 11:43:35 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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When is France falling?



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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 12:10:21 AM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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quote:

full corps from Canada? They start with 1 at 1/3rd strength so about 60 point to fill then 2 more costing 360 PPs. At 18 per turn that's 23 turns so means no escort buying or upgrades before August '39. That means you lose BoA


You got it right with Canada I only manufacture troops until I get 3 complete Corps and then I update them, at the end of July they are ready and in position, then almost exclusively build landing ships.

My escorts are of English and American manufacture. They are a little late, but it is usually not very annoying.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 8:25:39 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

When is France falling?



As I understand it, the german is quitting. When I play allies - July

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/24/2021 8:57:24 AM >


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 8:29:06 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY

Suggestion here- on the turn that both of these conditions are fulfilled at the end of the allied turn-

1) Lilly is axis controlled

2) One or more axis armour/mech units are within three hex of Paris

all allied units get retreated prior to the start of the next axis south of the Seine or east of the Meuse whichever distance is shorter. This to be done by the AI much like the goings on when Vichy is declared. Rationale? In the real world the feckless French leaders did declare Paris an open city and the end came soon after that.


Michael

The trouble with this is that this disadvantages allied players who do not use these extreme defences.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 8:43:50 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY

Suggestion here- on the turn that both of these conditions are fulfilled at the end of the allied turn-

1) Lilly is axis controlled

2) One or more axis armour/mech units are within three hex of Paris

all allied units get retreated prior to the start of the next axis south of the Seine or east of the Meuse whichever distance is shorter. This to be done by the AI much like the goings on when Vichy is declared. Rationale? In the real world the feckless French leaders did declare Paris an open city and the end came soon after that.


Michael

The trouble with this is that this disadvantages allied players who do not use these extreme defences.


Yes, we can't let the Germans win easily. Don't forget that if German victory is quick, it means Yugoslavia in 1940 and plenty of other options.

We can't expect the Allies to be as bad as historically. Players will be better. A victory in June is impossible against a good Allied player.

The problem is the shape of the German army after invading France. If Germany is exhausted, losing all tanks, all planes, it means no Barbarossa or perhaps in 1942 with the new rules.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 3/24/2021 8:45:56 AM >


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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 8:48:51 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Lots of helpful thoughts

I'm against reducing UK experience levels because that will change the game way beyond the France problem Would make it much easier for axis to overrun the middle east for example and then do a '42 Barbarossa with lots of petrol. Solves 1 problem then creates another. Same problem with manpower changes.

Re early experience, I think the British army pre-war was the only regular arm, and was initially filled out by reservist and Territorials ( 'the weekend soldiers'), so not a bunch of conscripts on a par with continental armies of France, Belgium, Holland and Italy.

For what it is worth, I never put more than 1 HQ, 4 inf xxx and 1 mech xxx in France. Occasionally a fighter or 2 but usually none.


You have made a very valid point about the UK regular army. UK deserves keeping its 50% experience.


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 23
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 11:09:57 AM   
stjeand


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Well lets look at what most of my Axis games look like.

France will normally fall August. I run units back and take Yugo before the rains. Then Greece is a mixed bag.

In the game I am playing currently against Silly...I took France in...late July? But he does not go all in, in France.
In this game I lost an Axis Mech and my entire airforce has been rebuilt from the ground up.
That cost is high but Barbarossa is coming, lets see if it was too high.

Against Comadre it was July and both Axis sides had been hammered. My Axis had lost 2 armor corps (never retreated when there was as spot behind them which was weird)...his Axis had lost 3 Inf corps and 1 armor corps, and we both knew the Axis was done. I think he would have taken Paris but would have cost him another 2 corps somewhere...my armor had no bite left...trucks were no longer useful and far to expensive.


I think I will do what Silly is doing and limit my units in France for start to see how that does.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 11:19:25 AM   
majpalmer

 

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Basic problem? The Belgians, Dutch, and French units have over rated experience levels, as do the Italians and others. Reduce D and B levels by 20, and French by 10. I put the Italians at 15.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 1:02:44 PM   
sillyflower


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B and N both die in 1 turn with minimal G losses so they aren't an obstacle at all.

Reduce F exp. and it unbalances 1940 and would force UK to have to follow the ridiculous strategy which I would like to stop.

As to the Italians at 15, Italy would fall in'41 every game, and in '40 vs a competent UK player. An aggressive allied player might manage it in '39. The only counter would be massive German support (assuming Italy could survive on its own for 2 turns which is unlikely. In either scenario the G commitment to W Europe would make Barbarossa as successful as Napoleon was in 1815.

Fun for me as allies (once anyway) but I would probably not find an opponent who had played the game before..................

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/24/2021 1:26:58 PM >


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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 1:22:09 PM   
majpalmer

 

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I agree. I should have added that I'm ,dding the 39 scenario for play against the AI as the Axis.

But, as for the Italians, there's no way they should be rated as high as they are. Better than the Russians? Better than the French? No way!

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 2:17:25 PM   
stjeand


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As for the Italias...their experience does them no good to be honest. They can barely move a UK corp with 2 Mech units. So lowering their experience would cause them to get taken out in 41...then the war will be over for Germany as they can not fight on two fronts.

You would have to change their units to have lower exp and highter STR to make up for the losses.

Because their corps are just 20...their experience fits. Honestly those units can't do anything other than be a police force that delays the Allies like the USSR units do against the Germans.

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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 2:34:00 PM   
generalfdog

 

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I disagree with the premise that France is to hard to take, yes if the Allied player is good and goes all in they can delay the Germans and with an inexperienced German player even hold it, but that is historical the fall of France was not a forgone conclusion, the downside for the Allies is going all in on France is risky if you lose to many Brits, strip the middle east or, don't build escorts the allies are risking serious consequences if the longshot gamble fails.

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 29
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/24/2021 3:41:08 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
Normally yes, but I'm talking about the times when allies put everything into France -see ncc's AAR for an example

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(in reply to generalfdog)
Post #: 30
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