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Commander killed in air raid - 3/22/2021 1:02:42 PM   
Templer_12


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Can a commander now be killed in an air attack / interdiction?
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RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 9:56:08 AM   
Omat


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Hello

Only in an abstract way. There is a chance that a leader will die. But this includes various reasons e.g., also disease (heart attacks and so on).

Regards

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
Bertrand Russell

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 2
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 2:59:11 PM   
dudefan

 

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Does the chance increase if I bomb an hq?

(in reply to Omat)
Post #: 3
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 4:17:30 PM   
Omat


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Not that I'm aware of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Does the chance increase if I bomb an hq?



_____________________________

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
Bertrand Russell

(in reply to dudefan)
Post #: 4
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 5:32:29 PM   
Delaware

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Does the chance increase if I bomb an hq?

I donít know.... I would be more likely to have a heart attack if my HQ was getting bombed

(in reply to dudefan)
Post #: 5
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 6:30:04 PM   
Templer_12


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You know, Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel was almost killed by an interdiction.

So yes, I wish 'killed by interdiction' should appear in the game.

(in reply to Delaware)
Post #: 6
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 6:35:40 PM   
ObeseMonkey

 

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The issue is a matter I imagine of ensuring it canít be a tactic. Certainly is a waste if not ahistorical to target a HQ with the intention of specifically killing the head officer. Some examples exist, but most wonít be deliberate attempts to target someone. The risk of death should increase if itís bombed, but it should be a rare occurrence. I mean we are talking thousands of people in the headquarters.

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 7
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 6:38:53 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ObeseMonkey

The issue is a matter I imagine of ensuring it canít be a tactic. Certainly is a waste if not ahistorical to target a HQ with the intention of specifically killing the head officer. Some examples exist, but most wonít be deliberate attempts to target someone. The risk of death should increase if itís bombed, but it should be a rare occurrence. I mean we are talking thousands of people in the headquarters.

Corps HQ manpower was 27 officers, 900 odd enlisted, 40 civilians.

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to ObeseMonkey)
Post #: 8
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 6:45:08 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10150
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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ObeseMonkey

The issue is a matter I imagine of ensuring it canít be a tactic. Certainly is a waste if not ahistorical to target a HQ with the intention of specifically killing the head officer. Some examples exist, but most wonít be deliberate attempts to target someone. The risk of death should increase if itís bombed, but it should be a rare occurrence. I mean we are talking thousands of people in the headquarters.


well if you remember some of the early WiTE1 builds (prob up to version 1.04 or similar) there was a craze for endless HQ bombing so both sides killed off the other's commanders and everyone ended up with 2-4 numpties in their command chain. Most players then invented a house rule to stop deliberate HQ bombing simply as this was getting ridiculous and was one of those mechanisms (like the endless recon spam) that simply rewarded the player most prepared to risk RSI.

WiTW had a problem that a HQ attack did too much damage to the SUs, and that was changed in a patch to reflect the dispersed nature of what a HQ represents (a hit on something like SHAEF could produce 1,000s of losses).

HQ bombing in WiTE2 is worth considering (I do with U2s etc) but its a pretty low reward activity, nice the few times you hit something worthwhile.

_____________________________


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Post #: 9
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/23/2021 7:00:41 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: ObeseMonkey

The issue is a matter I imagine of ensuring it canít be a tactic. Certainly is a waste if not ahistorical to target a HQ with the intention of specifically killing the head officer. Some examples exist, but most wonít be deliberate attempts to target someone. The risk of death should increase if itís bombed, but it should be a rare occurrence. I mean we are talking thousands of people in the headquarters.


well if you remember some of the early WiTE1 builds (prob up to version 1.04 or similar) there was a craze for endless HQ bombing so both sides killed off the other's commanders and everyone ended up with 2-4 numpties in their command chain. Most players then invented a house rule to stop deliberate HQ bombing simply as this was getting ridiculous and was one of those mechanisms (like the endless recon spam) that simply rewarded the player most prepared to risk RSI.

WiTW had a problem that a HQ attack did too much damage to the SUs, and that was changed in a patch to reflect the dispersed nature of what a HQ represents (a hit on something like SHAEF could produce 1,000s of losses).

HQ bombing in WiTE2 is worth considering (I do with U2s etc) but its a pretty low reward activity, nice the few times you hit something worthwhile.


Just force the HQ to displace. You have a pretty good chance of killing the HQ commander ;-) Maybe the powers to be lowered that kill rate but my last 2 AAR's I saw over 8+ Soviet killed leaders in the opening turns from displacing Soviet HQ's.

As for HQ bombings you would have to find the HQ then bomb it which isn't exactly easy since Recon & bombing happen at the same time. Not to mention the losses you could incur doing this just to try and kill a leader. The losses in planes could unnecessarily sky rocket out of proportion to a gain of a leader loss. But that is just me thinking out loud.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 10
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 11:53:28 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: ObeseMonkey

The issue is a matter I imagine of ensuring it canít be a tactic. Certainly is a waste if not ahistorical to target a HQ with the intention of specifically killing the head officer. Some examples exist, but most wonít be deliberate attempts to target someone. The risk of death should increase if itís bombed, but it should be a rare occurrence. I mean we are talking thousands of people in the headquarters.


well if you remember some of the early WiTE1 builds (prob up to version 1.04 or similar) there was a craze for endless HQ bombing so both sides killed off the other's commanders and everyone ended up with 2-4 numpties in their command chain. Most players then invented a house rule to stop deliberate HQ bombing simply as this was getting ridiculous and was one of those mechanisms (like the endless recon spam) that simply rewarded the player most prepared to risk RSI.

WiTW had a problem that a HQ attack did too much damage to the SUs, and that was changed in a patch to reflect the dispersed nature of what a HQ represents (a hit on something like SHAEF could produce 1,000s of losses).

HQ bombing in WiTE2 is worth considering (I do with U2s etc) but its a pretty low reward activity, nice the few times you hit something worthwhile.


Just force the HQ to displace. You have a pretty good chance of killing the HQ commander ;-) Maybe the powers to be lowered that kill rate but my last 2 AAR's I saw over 8+ Soviet killed leaders in the opening turns from displacing Soviet HQ's.

As for HQ bombings you would have to find the HQ then bomb it which isn't exactly easy since Recon & bombing happen at the same time. Not to mention the losses you could incur doing this just to try and kill a leader. The losses in planes could unnecessarily sky rocket out of proportion to a gain of a leader loss. But that is just me thinking out loud.


Manual explains the chances from combat and non combat HQ leader casualties, it however denies the player any way to quantify the risk beyond v small from air Attack, including HQ interdiction in the manual, which was the wars leading causal agent of HQ leader loss, 25% of all German Corps and 33% of all Army HQ leader losses, and is in game the least likely way to cause a leader loss, small is what the manual then describes other combat actions, the same small is used for non combat leader loss rate, ie accidents, there is a mention of the small from some causes being reduced by two thirds in the HQ is 10 or more hexes from the front, how a player is to know the risks is very poorly documented, and the risk itself is designed not to produce historical rates of leader loss, as the highest cause is HQ displace,which for the SU was the lowest cause of leader loss as Kia, game includes accidental death, but not non combat and suicide that were three times accidental death rates.So in game small chance refers to something that caused 30 to a multiplier of that as the same chance, 60 suicides that are not even modelled, German Corps had 4 to 5 commanders over the course of the war, so the game is not simulating overall leader loss but selecting some actions that cause death, ignoring others and is designed to not produce historical leader loss rates.

Germany lost 23 Corps Commanders from an average 52 Corps over the war, so 6 a year, but it lost them differently by year, 74% in 44/45, 11 up to 42.




< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/24/2021 12:31:31 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 11
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 12:36:35 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
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Over on steam on the manual sucks thread, in post 95 I set out an alt way to model all 416 Su and German 342 5 grade of leaders loss, for anyone into such data or looking for historical context.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/24/2021 12:37:01 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 12
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 12:47:29 PM   
ranknfile

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 2/9/2021
From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Over on steam on the manual sucks thread, in post 95 I set out an alt way to model all 416 Su and German 342 5 grade of leaders loss, for anyone into such data or looking for historical context.


Interesting information, you obviously "do your homework." However, it is post 97.


(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 13
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 12:52:12 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranknfile


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Over on steam on the manual sucks thread, in post 95 I set out an alt way to model all 416 Su and German 342 5 grade of leaders loss, for anyone into such data or looking for historical context.


Interesting information, you obviously "do your homework." However, it is post 97.




Doh.....


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to ranknfile)
Post #: 14
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 1:32:58 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6457
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: ObeseMonkey

The issue is a matter I imagine of ensuring it canít be a tactic. Certainly is a waste if not ahistorical to target a HQ with the intention of specifically killing the head officer. Some examples exist, but most wonít be deliberate attempts to target someone. The risk of death should increase if itís bombed, but it should be a rare occurrence. I mean we are talking thousands of people in the headquarters.


well if you remember some of the early WiTE1 builds (prob up to version 1.04 or similar) there was a craze for endless HQ bombing so both sides killed off the other's commanders and everyone ended up with 2-4 numpties in their command chain. Most players then invented a house rule to stop deliberate HQ bombing simply as this was getting ridiculous and was one of those mechanisms (like the endless recon spam) that simply rewarded the player most prepared to risk RSI.

WiTW had a problem that a HQ attack did too much damage to the SUs, and that was changed in a patch to reflect the dispersed nature of what a HQ represents (a hit on something like SHAEF could produce 1,000s of losses).

HQ bombing in WiTE2 is worth considering (I do with U2s etc) but its a pretty low reward activity, nice the few times you hit something worthwhile.


Just force the HQ to displace. You have a pretty good chance of killing the HQ commander ;-) Maybe the powers to be lowered that kill rate but my last 2 AAR's I saw over 8+ Soviet killed leaders in the opening turns from displacing Soviet HQ's.

As for HQ bombings you would have to find the HQ then bomb it which isn't exactly easy since Recon & bombing happen at the same time. Not to mention the losses you could incur doing this just to try and kill a leader. The losses in planes could unnecessarily sky rocket out of proportion to a gain of a leader loss. But that is just me thinking out loud.


Manual explains the chances from combat and non combat HQ leader casualties, it however denies the player any way to quantify the risk beyond v small from air Attack, including HQ interdiction in the manual, which was the wars leading causal agent of HQ leader loss, 25% of all German Corps and 33% of all Army HQ leader losses, and is in game the least likely way to cause a leader loss, small is what the manual then describes other combat actions, the same small is used for non combat leader loss rate, ie accidents, there is a mention of the small from some causes being reduced by two thirds in the HQ is 10 or more hexes from the front, how a player is to know the risks is very poorly documented, and the risk itself is designed not to produce historical rates of leader loss, as the highest cause is HQ displace,which for the SU was the lowest cause of leader loss as Kia, game includes accidental death, but not non combat and suicide that were three times accidental death rates.So in game small chance refers to something that caused 30 to a multiplier of that as the same chance, 60 suicides that are not even modelled, German Corps had 4 to 5 commanders over the course of the war, so the game is not simulating overall leader loss but selecting some actions that cause death, ignoring others and is designed to not produce historical leader loss rates.

Germany lost 23 Corps Commanders from an average 52 Corps over the war, so 6 a year, but it lost them differently by year, 74% in 44/45, 11 up to 42.





In short, I don't think the HQ bombing is the crux of the story here. Seems to me the game just need random events to take their toll on the leaders in the game. Which I believe could be modeled a great deal better than HQ bombing.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 15
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 1:48:57 PM   
Templer_12


Posts: 1698
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
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To emphasize again: I'm interested in a random interdiction, during which a commander happens to fall victim.
Not planned HQ bombing!

< Message edited by Templer_12 -- 3/24/2021 1:51:17 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 16
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 2:03:17 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

To emphasize again: I'm interested in a random interdiction, during which a commander happens to fall victim.
Not planned HQ bombing!


Covered in the game rules already.


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 17
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 2:04:21 PM   
Denniss

 

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In WitE1 there was a gamey way to get rid of commanders by endless bombing of HQs as even small forces had a limited chance to trigger a commander kill. This was later blocked by multiple restrictions.
These endless bombings were also used to inflict lots of manpower losses especially if attacking large army group/Front HQs due to lots of support squads and support units present.

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 18
RE: Commander killed in air raid - 3/24/2021 2:15:28 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

In WitE1 there was a gamey way to get rid of commanders by endless bombing of HQs as even small forces had a limited chance to trigger a commander kill. This was later blocked by multiple restrictions.
These endless bombings were also used to inflict lots of manpower losses especially if attacking large army group/Front HQs due to lots of support squads and support units present.


The ability to sortie over HQ is because the player knows where they are so easily, Stolfi in his ,German disruption of Soviet Command and control and communication in Barbarossa, available online, clearly shows how hard it was to identify them.Worth reading for the EHartman quote to Goring about flying in bad weather, and itís effects, alone.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/24/2021 2:44:18 PM >


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 19
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