Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/22/2021 3:53:54 AM   
solops

 

Posts: 790
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline
Which do you prefer? Why and what do you use each for? Discussion....

_____________________________

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand
Post #: 1
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/22/2021 4:01:05 AM   
newageofpower


Posts: 257
Joined: 12/3/2020
Status: offline
Right now you can't efficiently use large numbers of Heavy Walkers because they currently don't have OOBs, while pure armor OOBs are some of the strongest offensive formations in game.

Most Postures do not affect Heavy Walkers, or even only have a negative effect.

Furthermore, Heavy Tanks can mount 300mm armor which significantly mitigates Heavy Guided RPGs, requiring large Vehicles or Nuke RPG to overmatch. Meanwhile, Heavy Walkers mount 200mm maximal armor, so are still very vulnerable to Heavy Guided RPGs.

They have better (-massively- better with the optimizations) attack/defense stats and are great for Mountain/Jungle/City combat, but until we get a pure Walker OOB they're not going to outright replace armor.

(in reply to solops)
Post #: 2
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/22/2021 10:15:05 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 2843
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
Let us see, Walkers when compared to tanks:
- "Due to their high stature they are excellent tank killers. Hard Attack Value gets +50% and Hard Defence Value gets +25%"
- they only carry much weaker armor and weapons. Note however that this maters less for energy weapons - Laser counts as 100mm/Level, Plasma as 200mm/Level
- suffer terrain penalties around infantry or halfway between infanty and vehicles
- gets automatic entrenchment and max entrenchment about half of the infantry

Basically Walkers are a step between Infantry and Tanks. For most terrain*:
- get the AP cost, combat modifier and entrenchment for Infantry and Vehicles.
- use either the better one of halfway between the two

*Noticeably Marshes are not kind to Walkers

(in reply to newageofpower)
Post #: 3
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/22/2021 12:01:07 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Let us see, Walkers when compared to tanks:
- "Due to their high stature they are excellent tank killers. Hard Attack Value gets +50% and Hard Defence Value gets +25%"
- they only carry much weaker armor and weapons. Note however that this maters less for energy weapons - Laser counts as 100mm/Level, Plasma as 200mm/Level
- suffer terrain penalties around infantry or halfway between infanty and vehicles
- gets automatic entrenchment and max entrenchment about half of the infantry

Basically Walkers are a step between Infantry and Tanks. For most terrain*:
- get the AP cost, combat modifier and entrenchment for Infantry and Vehicles.
- use either the better one of halfway between the two

*Noticeably Marshes are not kind to Walkers


IMO they should not be better at defense compared to tanks. Since they are higher from the ground they are also easier targets.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 4
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/22/2021 12:39:21 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 2843
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Let us see, Walkers when compared to tanks:
- "Due to their high stature they are excellent tank killers. Hard Attack Value gets +50% and Hard Defence Value gets +25%"
- they only carry much weaker armor and weapons. Note however that this maters less for energy weapons - Laser counts as 100mm/Level, Plasma as 200mm/Level
- suffer terrain penalties around infantry or halfway between infanty and vehicles
- gets automatic entrenchment and max entrenchment about half of the infantry

Basically Walkers are a step between Infantry and Tanks. For most terrain*:
- get the AP cost, combat modifier and entrenchment for Infantry and Vehicles.
- use either the better one of halfway between the two

*Noticeably Marshes are not kind to Walkers


IMO they should not be better at defense compared to tanks. Since they are higher from the ground they are also easier targets.

Keep in mind that HP is about not dying to enemy fire.
Soft/Hard Defense is about killing enemies when being the guy defending a Hex. Stuff like the ability to lie in Ambush/avalible defensive positions.

Even during a defense of a Hex, a MG will be ocassionally used for a counterattack. However most of the time, it is placed in a defensive position to kill infantry that walk into it's line of fire. Which is why it's soft defense damage is 4 times soft attack.

The best way to make a Tank into a defensive weapon include:
- do not put the gun onto a tank chassis to begin with
- dig in the tank, literally to the turret
- move the turret over to a bunker

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 5
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/22/2021 1:03:34 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Let us see, Walkers when compared to tanks:
- "Due to their high stature they are excellent tank killers. Hard Attack Value gets +50% and Hard Defence Value gets +25%"
- they only carry much weaker armor and weapons. Note however that this maters less for energy weapons - Laser counts as 100mm/Level, Plasma as 200mm/Level
- suffer terrain penalties around infantry or halfway between infanty and vehicles
- gets automatic entrenchment and max entrenchment about half of the infantry

Basically Walkers are a step between Infantry and Tanks. For most terrain*:
- get the AP cost, combat modifier and entrenchment for Infantry and Vehicles.
- use either the better one of halfway between the two

*Noticeably Marshes are not kind to Walkers


IMO they should not be better at defense compared to tanks. Since they are higher from the ground they are also easier targets.

Keep in mind that HP is about not dying to enemy fire.
Soft/Hard Defense is about killing enemies when being the guy defending a Hex. Stuff like the ability to lie in Ambush/avalible defensive positions.

Even during a defense of a Hex, a MG will be ocassionally used for a counterattack. However most of the time, it is placed in a defensive position to kill infantry that walk into it's line of fire. Which is why it's soft defense damage is 4 times soft attack.

The best way to make a Tank into a defensive weapon include:
- do not put the gun onto a tank chassis to begin with
- dig in the tank, literally to the turret
- move the turret over to a bunker


So you use different rules for them? For a tank its good to be in cover but a walker not?

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 6
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/22/2021 1:10:40 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
Also to add, I think people do not realize how fragile walkers can be (because we have never seen them in use). One small hit into a leg and the hydraulics, the walker falls over and is basically useless. Or just becomes a very fragile and high standing target.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 7
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/22/2021 2:48:29 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 2843
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Let us see, Walkers when compared to tanks:
- "Due to their high stature they are excellent tank killers. Hard Attack Value gets +50% and Hard Defence Value gets +25%"
- they only carry much weaker armor and weapons. Note however that this maters less for energy weapons - Laser counts as 100mm/Level, Plasma as 200mm/Level
- suffer terrain penalties around infantry or halfway between infanty and vehicles
- gets automatic entrenchment and max entrenchment about half of the infantry

Basically Walkers are a step between Infantry and Tanks. For most terrain*:
- get the AP cost, combat modifier and entrenchment for Infantry and Vehicles.
- use either the better one of halfway between the two

*Noticeably Marshes are not kind to Walkers


IMO they should not be better at defense compared to tanks. Since they are higher from the ground they are also easier targets.

Keep in mind that HP is about not dying to enemy fire.
Soft/Hard Defense is about killing enemies when being the guy defending a Hex. Stuff like the ability to lie in Ambush/avalible defensive positions.

Even during a defense of a Hex, a MG will be ocassionally used for a counterattack. However most of the time, it is placed in a defensive position to kill infantry that walk into it's line of fire. Which is why it's soft defense damage is 4 times soft attack.

The best way to make a Tank into a defensive weapon include:
- do not put the gun onto a tank chassis to begin with
- dig in the tank, literally to the turret
- move the turret over to a bunker


So you use different rules for them? For a tank its good to be in cover but a walker not?

No.
And I have no idea how you can to that conclusion?

It is just a whole lot harder for a tank to take cover, move between cover or make cover then for a human soldiers.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 8
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/24/2021 4:19:51 AM   
DeltaV112

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 10/16/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
The best way to make a Tank into a defensive weapon include:
- do not put the gun onto a tank chassis to begin with
- dig in the tank, literally to the turret
- move the turret over to a bunker

No, not really. Tanks in general perform quite well on the operational defense, by virtue of being able to reposition quickly to cut off lines of advance and to avoid being pinned down(similarly being immune to small arms and most artillery is a huge help). Finding cover or concealment is not hard for a tank- plenty of buildings or terrain variation can be exploited, and again mobility plays a big role in letting a tank pick whatever cover is best against the incoming threat.
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
No.
And I have no idea how you can to that conclusion?

It is just a whole lot harder for a tank to take cover, move between cover or make cover then for a human soldiers.

If infantry had the sort of mobility and protection tanks do, you'd be right, but alas they do not. Infantry therefore have serious limits on the types of cover they can exploit. Tanks have their own of course, but real life isn't a video game where we need to make things fair.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 9
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/24/2021 10:32:43 AM   
BlueTemplar


Posts: 787
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline
But then, in *this* video game you can *almost* replicate Starship Trooper's Mobile Infantry armed with Micro-Nukes and (Jetpacks or Powered Armor) !

(in reply to DeltaV112)
Post #: 10
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/24/2021 11:01:18 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 2843
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

But then, in *this* video game you can *almost* replicate Starship Trooper's Mobile Infantry armed with Micro-Nukes and (Jetpacks or Powered Armor) !

But you can make nuclear RPG's in the game, wich is pretty close to what they used to close bugholes.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
Post #: 11
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/24/2021 2:37:55 PM   
Uemon

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 12/11/2020
Status: offline
Versus AI heavy walkers are useless in 99% of situations. Just stick with normal ones.

I personally stop making tanks completely once i get walkers, tanks just seem completely obsolete. If i encounter strong AIs with good armor i make some heavy walkers here and there, but i find that walkers work just fine in vast majority of cases. So whats the point of making tanks?

< Message edited by Uemon -- 3/24/2021 2:42:01 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 12
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/24/2021 2:39:05 PM   
Uemon

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 12/11/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: newageofpower

Right now you can't efficiently use large numbers of Heavy Walkers because they currently don't have OOBs, while pure armor OOBs are some of the strongest offensive formations in game.

Most Postures do not affect Heavy Walkers, or even only have a negative effect.

Furthermore, Heavy Tanks can mount 300mm armor which significantly mitigates Heavy Guided RPGs, requiring large Vehicles or Nuke RPG to overmatch. Meanwhile, Heavy Walkers mount 200mm maximal armor, so are still very vulnerable to Heavy Guided RPGs.

They have better (-massively- better with the optimizations) attack/defense stats and are great for Mountain/Jungle/City combat, but until we get a pure Walker OOB they're not going to outright replace armor.

quote:

They have better (-massively- better with the optimizations) attack/defense stats and are great for Mountain/Jungle/City combat, but until we get a pure Walker OOB they're not going to outright replace armor.


How does fuel use compare? (heavy walkers vs heavy armor)

(in reply to newageofpower)
Post #: 13
RE: Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor - 3/24/2021 2:47:57 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 2843
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: newageofpower

Right now you can't efficiently use large numbers of Heavy Walkers because they currently don't have OOBs, while pure armor OOBs are some of the strongest offensive formations in game.

Most Postures do not affect Heavy Walkers, or even only have a negative effect.

Furthermore, Heavy Tanks can mount 300mm armor which significantly mitigates Heavy Guided RPGs, requiring large Vehicles or Nuke RPG to overmatch. Meanwhile, Heavy Walkers mount 200mm maximal armor, so are still very vulnerable to Heavy Guided RPGs.

They have better (-massively- better with the optimizations) attack/defense stats and are great for Mountain/Jungle/City combat, but until we get a pure Walker OOB they're not going to outright replace armor.

quote:

They have better (-massively- better with the optimizations) attack/defense stats and are great for Mountain/Jungle/City combat, but until we get a pure Walker OOB they're not going to outright replace armor.


How does fuel use compare? (heavy walkers vs heavy armor)

I am trying to get some data on how fuel consumption is calculated. Currently it appears that the primary factor is total weight. The engine itself has a surprisingly low impact on total fuel consumption.

And in weight the Walker should have a advantage, with the lighter armor and weaponry.

(in reply to Uemon)
Post #: 14
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Hvy Walkers vs Hvy Armor Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.176