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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/15/2021 7:39:14 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13049
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Dream Game? There is one I’d love to see (and may have mentioned it previously)

War in the Mediterranean June 1940 – May 1943 (so would start with Il Duce’s fateful decision to take Italy to war on 10 June 1940 – and end with the Allies evicting the Axis from North Africa)

The game would be a highly detailed air, land and sea game. Daily turns.

For the land and air component, I would want squadron and battalion sized units with NATO symbols.

For the naval element the game would have almost a game within a game. The naval battles would be fought on an almost real-time basis. The units employed would be worked out and the orders given. Movement would then speed through until point of first contact – at which point phases are played out until contact is lost and the time speeds up until contact is made once more.

Great attention to detail would be made to ensure that all the variables that upset many a plan could intervene - naval/air communication issues / intercepting enemy comms or part thereof / bad weather / mechanical issues.

The political machinations of that theatre would be represented in all its myriad of opportunities and costs – or for those seeking more realism, then there would be an ‘historical’ scenario; The British refuse to give up Malta, but the Axis don’t understand why they should invade. There in a nutshell is why the war developed as it did and was so costly to the RN and such a wasted opportunity for the RM.

The game would be aesthetically spectacular; rich, colourful, easy on the eye with plenty of zoom levels for us old timers.

I can’t wait – when does this get made Matrix?


Don't forget the penalty for not attacking the French fleet.
warspite1

Well that is just one of the many, many what-ifs. But I don't know that there is any tangible evidence that points to a specific penalty:

- So if one decides there is a penalty for not doing so then what would that be? And based on what? Did this action really make much difference in Washington for example? Yes supposedly it confirmed the British were serious, but did anything happen that wouldn't have otherwise?

- But then what if the British give the ultimatum, and Gensoul actually does his job (you had one job Gensoul) and gives the full details to Darlan - does that make a difference? Would the game allow a small % chance that Darlan grows a set and does the right thing?

- But if going down the flights of fancy route, then is there also a small % chance that Somerville says "nah, Gensoul is my bro innit bruv, and bros before er... well that doesn't rhymne. Anyways, this ain't happenin' on my watch dude, I'm outta here"


The problem with the phrase "do the right thing" is that the "right thing" is actually different for different people.

Think if the French would have responded "Give us some fuel and food then we will sail to Cayenne!" I actually think that FDR would have provided the fuel and food if he would have been asked to do so.

Otherwise, maybe some French ships actually do get taken over by the Axis. And/Or the French fleet is available at Casablanca, et al, when the Torch invasion is going on. Or even at Tunis when the German land reinforcements arrive, then go aboard said ships before Darlan switches sides . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 31
RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/15/2021 8:02:40 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 45032
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Dream Game? There is one I’d love to see (and may have mentioned it previously)

War in the Mediterranean June 1940 – May 1943 (so would start with Il Duce’s fateful decision to take Italy to war on 10 June 1940 – and end with the Allies evicting the Axis from North Africa)

The game would be a highly detailed air, land and sea game. Daily turns.

For the land and air component, I would want squadron and battalion sized units with NATO symbols.

For the naval element the game would have almost a game within a game. The naval battles would be fought on an almost real-time basis. The units employed would be worked out and the orders given. Movement would then speed through until point of first contact – at which point phases are played out until contact is lost and the time speeds up until contact is made once more.

Great attention to detail would be made to ensure that all the variables that upset many a plan could intervene - naval/air communication issues / intercepting enemy comms or part thereof / bad weather / mechanical issues.

The political machinations of that theatre would be represented in all its myriad of opportunities and costs – or for those seeking more realism, then there would be an ‘historical’ scenario; The British refuse to give up Malta, but the Axis don’t understand why they should invade. There in a nutshell is why the war developed as it did and was so costly to the RN and such a wasted opportunity for the RM.

The game would be aesthetically spectacular; rich, colourful, easy on the eye with plenty of zoom levels for us old timers.

I can’t wait – when does this get made Matrix?


Don't forget the penalty for not attacking the French fleet.
warspite1

Well that is just one of the many, many what-ifs. But I don't know that there is any tangible evidence that points to a specific penalty:

- So if one decides there is a penalty for not doing so then what would that be? And based on what? Did this action really make much difference in Washington for example? Yes supposedly it confirmed the British were serious, but did anything happen that wouldn't have otherwise?

- But then what if the British give the ultimatum, and Gensoul actually does his job (you had one job Gensoul) and gives the full details to Darlan - does that make a difference? Would the game allow a small % chance that Darlan grows a set and does the right thing?

- But if going down the flights of fancy route, then is there also a small % chance that Somerville says "nah, Gensoul is my bro innit bruv, and bros before er... well that doesn't rhymne. Anyways, this ain't happenin' on my watch dude, I'm outta here"


The problem with the phrase "do the right thing" is that the "right thing" is actually different for different people.

Think if the French would have responded "Give us some fuel and food then we will sail to Cayenne!" I actually think that FDR would have provided the fuel and food if he would have been asked to do so.

Otherwise, maybe some French ships actually do get taken over by the Axis. And/Or the French fleet is available at Casablanca, et al, when the Torch invasion is going on. Or even at Tunis when the German land reinforcements arrive, then go aboard said ships before Darlan switches sides . . .
warspite1

Well naturally I am talking about 'do the right thing' with a 21st Century lens. And defeating A. Hitler is doing the right thing in that context.

I don't know what you mean about food and fuel and the French response. It is difficult to envisage a scenario where, less than a month after the armistice, France goes against the agreement and then expects Hitler to simply take it on the chin. Hitler, I suspect, would have collapsed Vichy there and then - and the life expectancy of Petain, Darlan and co suddenly dropped by a huge factor.

There is no reason to believe - with hindsight and given everything we now know - that there would have been any different outcome in terms of French ships and the Axis as a result of no Menace. Why would there be? Darlan said the fleet wouldn't fall into German hands and ultimately he was right. But Churchill didn't know that, and given the veracity of Hitler's previous promises, could be forgiven for not trusting the Germans.




_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 32
RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/15/2021 8:46:38 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13049
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Dream Game? There is one I’d love to see (and may have mentioned it previously)

War in the Mediterranean June 1940 – May 1943 (so would start with Il Duce’s fateful decision to take Italy to war on 10 June 1940 – and end with the Allies evicting the Axis from North Africa)

The game would be a highly detailed air, land and sea game. Daily turns.

For the land and air component, I would want squadron and battalion sized units with NATO symbols.

For the naval element the game would have almost a game within a game. The naval battles would be fought on an almost real-time basis. The units employed would be worked out and the orders given. Movement would then speed through until point of first contact – at which point phases are played out until contact is lost and the time speeds up until contact is made once more.

Great attention to detail would be made to ensure that all the variables that upset many a plan could intervene - naval/air communication issues / intercepting enemy comms or part thereof / bad weather / mechanical issues.

The political machinations of that theatre would be represented in all its myriad of opportunities and costs – or for those seeking more realism, then there would be an ‘historical’ scenario; The British refuse to give up Malta, but the Axis don’t understand why they should invade. There in a nutshell is why the war developed as it did and was so costly to the RN and such a wasted opportunity for the RM.

The game would be aesthetically spectacular; rich, colourful, easy on the eye with plenty of zoom levels for us old timers.

I can’t wait – when does this get made Matrix?


Don't forget the penalty for not attacking the French fleet.
warspite1

Well that is just one of the many, many what-ifs. But I don't know that there is any tangible evidence that points to a specific penalty:

- So if one decides there is a penalty for not doing so then what would that be? And based on what? Did this action really make much difference in Washington for example? Yes supposedly it confirmed the British were serious, but did anything happen that wouldn't have otherwise?

- But then what if the British give the ultimatum, and Gensoul actually does his job (you had one job Gensoul) and gives the full details to Darlan - does that make a difference? Would the game allow a small % chance that Darlan grows a set and does the right thing?

- But if going down the flights of fancy route, then is there also a small % chance that Somerville says "nah, Gensoul is my bro innit bruv, and bros before er... well that doesn't rhymne. Anyways, this ain't happenin' on my watch dude, I'm outta here"


The problem with the phrase "do the right thing" is that the "right thing" is actually different for different people.

Think if the French would have responded "Give us some fuel and food then we will sail to Cayenne!" I actually think that FDR would have provided the fuel and food if he would have been asked to do so.

Otherwise, maybe some French ships actually do get taken over by the Axis. And/Or the French fleet is available at Casablanca, et al, when the Torch invasion is going on. Or even at Tunis when the German land reinforcements arrive, then go aboard said ships before Darlan switches sides . . .
warspite1

Well naturally I am talking about 'do the right thing' with a 21st Century lens. And defeating A. Hitler is doing the right thing in that context.

I don't know what you mean about food and fuel and the French response. It is difficult to envisage a scenario where, less than a month after the armistice, France goes against the agreement and then expects Hitler to simply take it on the chin. Hitler, I suspect, would have collapsed Vichy there and then - and the life expectancy of Petain, Darlan and co suddenly dropped by a huge factor.

There is no reason to believe - with hindsight and given everything we now know - that there would have been any different outcome in terms of French ships and the Axis as a result of no Menace. Why would there be? Darlan said the fleet wouldn't fall into German hands and ultimately he was right. But Churchill didn't know that, and given the veracity of Hitler's previous promises, could be forgiven for not trusting the Germans.


The Germans did not allow the Vichy French much fuel for their fleet so it could not sail away. I presume that food on board would also be somewhat limited as well.

But there were Vichy possessions in the Americas so it would not have been a defection, just a redeployment. Fuel could have been transferred every couple of days but never enough to sail to the Atlantic French ports. The US Navy could have gone along as well.

But if you want uncertainity in the game, then if the British don't attack the French fleet then there could be random events happening to said fleet.

Of course, you could also have France fight on without a Vichy government forming or French North Africa not joining a Vichy government as well.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 33
RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/15/2021 8:59:02 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 45032
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Dream Game? There is one I’d love to see (and may have mentioned it previously)

War in the Mediterranean June 1940 – May 1943 (so would start with Il Duce’s fateful decision to take Italy to war on 10 June 1940 – and end with the Allies evicting the Axis from North Africa)

The game would be a highly detailed air, land and sea game. Daily turns.

For the land and air component, I would want squadron and battalion sized units with NATO symbols.

For the naval element the game would have almost a game within a game. The naval battles would be fought on an almost real-time basis. The units employed would be worked out and the orders given. Movement would then speed through until point of first contact – at which point phases are played out until contact is lost and the time speeds up until contact is made once more.

Great attention to detail would be made to ensure that all the variables that upset many a plan could intervene - naval/air communication issues / intercepting enemy comms or part thereof / bad weather / mechanical issues.

The political machinations of that theatre would be represented in all its myriad of opportunities and costs – or for those seeking more realism, then there would be an ‘historical’ scenario; The British refuse to give up Malta, but the Axis don’t understand why they should invade. There in a nutshell is why the war developed as it did and was so costly to the RN and such a wasted opportunity for the RM.

The game would be aesthetically spectacular; rich, colourful, easy on the eye with plenty of zoom levels for us old timers.

I can’t wait – when does this get made Matrix?


Don't forget the penalty for not attacking the French fleet.
warspite1

Well that is just one of the many, many what-ifs. But I don't know that there is any tangible evidence that points to a specific penalty:

- So if one decides there is a penalty for not doing so then what would that be? And based on what? Did this action really make much difference in Washington for example? Yes supposedly it confirmed the British were serious, but did anything happen that wouldn't have otherwise?

- But then what if the British give the ultimatum, and Gensoul actually does his job (you had one job Gensoul) and gives the full details to Darlan - does that make a difference? Would the game allow a small % chance that Darlan grows a set and does the right thing?

- But if going down the flights of fancy route, then is there also a small % chance that Somerville says "nah, Gensoul is my bro innit bruv, and bros before er... well that doesn't rhymne. Anyways, this ain't happenin' on my watch dude, I'm outta here"


The problem with the phrase "do the right thing" is that the "right thing" is actually different for different people.

Think if the French would have responded "Give us some fuel and food then we will sail to Cayenne!" I actually think that FDR would have provided the fuel and food if he would have been asked to do so.

Otherwise, maybe some French ships actually do get taken over by the Axis. And/Or the French fleet is available at Casablanca, et al, when the Torch invasion is going on. Or even at Tunis when the German land reinforcements arrive, then go aboard said ships before Darlan switches sides . . .
warspite1

Well naturally I am talking about 'do the right thing' with a 21st Century lens. And defeating A. Hitler is doing the right thing in that context.

I don't know what you mean about food and fuel and the French response. It is difficult to envisage a scenario where, less than a month after the armistice, France goes against the agreement and then expects Hitler to simply take it on the chin. Hitler, I suspect, would have collapsed Vichy there and then - and the life expectancy of Petain, Darlan and co suddenly dropped by a huge factor.

There is no reason to believe - with hindsight and given everything we now know - that there would have been any different outcome in terms of French ships and the Axis as a result of no Menace. Why would there be? Darlan said the fleet wouldn't fall into German hands and ultimately he was right. But Churchill didn't know that, and given the veracity of Hitler's previous promises, could be forgiven for not trusting the Germans.


The Germans did not allow the Vichy French much fuel for their fleet so it could not sail away. I presume that food on board would also be somewhat limited as well.

But there were Vichy possessions in the Americas so it would not have been a defection, just a redeployment. Fuel could have been transferred every couple of days but never enough to sail to the Atlantic French ports. The US Navy could have gone along as well.

But if you want uncertainity in the game, then if the British don't attack the French fleet then there could be random events happening to said fleet.

Of course, you could also have France fight on without a Vichy government forming or French North Africa not joining a Vichy government as well.
warspite1

Sorry I referred to Menace earlier - should have said Catapult.

The ships had enough to get to Toulon, there would have been nothing to stop them getting to Gibraltar and being topped up.

Sailing to those possessions in the Americas was one of the options given to the French.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 34
RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/15/2021 9:20:32 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6967
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack

This is another gaping hole in the PC Wargaming OOB:

Strategic Vietnam 60's - 70's.

Seems a little bit odd that not a single
dedicated strategic game exists for the Vietnam War?
(At least I am not aware of any for PC)

Yes, I know there are tactical games of various
sorts and maybe Art of War scenarios but not anything
custom built and dedicated to the big picture.

Is it simply because it is felt to be an unpopular subject
and would not sell well?

I confess the subject had scant interest for me until
I read Max Hastings book.

I feel a card driven geo-political layer meshed with
traditional military mechanics would be great!

"Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa Vietnam"?


Vietnam is hard to do because of the Vietcong.

(in reply to DeepBlack)
Post #: 35
RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/15/2021 10:10:52 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 8/17/2011
Status: offline
Vietnam theme is underway as far as I can tell, announced. But what can help sales -with Ageod expertise- is the new Pride of Nations game with the new engine I think. Don't know the extent of partnership with Field of Glory series.
Post #: 36
RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/15/2021 10:14:17 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13049
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Dream Game? There is one I’d love to see (and may have mentioned it previously)

War in the Mediterranean June 1940 – May 1943 (so would start with Il Duce’s fateful decision to take Italy to war on 10 June 1940 – and end with the Allies evicting the Axis from North Africa)

The game would be a highly detailed air, land and sea game. Daily turns.

For the land and air component, I would want squadron and battalion sized units with NATO symbols.

For the naval element the game would have almost a game within a game. The naval battles would be fought on an almost real-time basis. The units employed would be worked out and the orders given. Movement would then speed through until point of first contact – at which point phases are played out until contact is lost and the time speeds up until contact is made once more.

Great attention to detail would be made to ensure that all the variables that upset many a plan could intervene - naval/air communication issues / intercepting enemy comms or part thereof / bad weather / mechanical issues.

The political machinations of that theatre would be represented in all its myriad of opportunities and costs – or for those seeking more realism, then there would be an ‘historical’ scenario; The British refuse to give up Malta, but the Axis don’t understand why they should invade. There in a nutshell is why the war developed as it did and was so costly to the RN and such a wasted opportunity for the RM.

The game would be aesthetically spectacular; rich, colourful, easy on the eye with plenty of zoom levels for us old timers.

I can’t wait – when does this get made Matrix?


Don't forget the penalty for not attacking the French fleet.
warspite1

Well that is just one of the many, many what-ifs. But I don't know that there is any tangible evidence that points to a specific penalty:

- So if one decides there is a penalty for not doing so then what would that be? And based on what? Did this action really make much difference in Washington for example? Yes supposedly it confirmed the British were serious, but did anything happen that wouldn't have otherwise?

- But then what if the British give the ultimatum, and Gensoul actually does his job (you had one job Gensoul) and gives the full details to Darlan - does that make a difference? Would the game allow a small % chance that Darlan grows a set and does the right thing?

- But if going down the flights of fancy route, then is there also a small % chance that Somerville says "nah, Gensoul is my bro innit bruv, and bros before er... well that doesn't rhymne. Anyways, this ain't happenin' on my watch dude, I'm outta here"


The problem with the phrase "do the right thing" is that the "right thing" is actually different for different people.

Think if the French would have responded "Give us some fuel and food then we will sail to Cayenne!" I actually think that FDR would have provided the fuel and food if he would have been asked to do so.

Otherwise, maybe some French ships actually do get taken over by the Axis. And/Or the French fleet is available at Casablanca, et al, when the Torch invasion is going on. Or even at Tunis when the German land reinforcements arrive, then go aboard said ships before Darlan switches sides . . .
warspite1

Well naturally I am talking about 'do the right thing' with a 21st Century lens. And defeating A. Hitler is doing the right thing in that context.

I don't know what you mean about food and fuel and the French response. It is difficult to envisage a scenario where, less than a month after the armistice, France goes against the agreement and then expects Hitler to simply take it on the chin. Hitler, I suspect, would have collapsed Vichy there and then - and the life expectancy of Petain, Darlan and co suddenly dropped by a huge factor.

There is no reason to believe - with hindsight and given everything we now know - that there would have been any different outcome in terms of French ships and the Axis as a result of no Menace. Why would there be? Darlan said the fleet wouldn't fall into German hands and ultimately he was right. But Churchill didn't know that, and given the veracity of Hitler's previous promises, could be forgiven for not trusting the Germans.


The Germans did not allow the Vichy French much fuel for their fleet so it could not sail away. I presume that food on board would also be somewhat limited as well.

But there were Vichy possessions in the Americas so it would not have been a defection, just a redeployment. Fuel could have been transferred every couple of days but never enough to sail to the Atlantic French ports. The US Navy could have gone along as well.

But if you want uncertainity in the game, then if the British don't attack the French fleet then there could be random events happening to said fleet.

Of course, you could also have France fight on without a Vichy government forming or French North Africa not joining a Vichy government as well.
warspite1

Sorry I referred to Menace earlier - should have said Catapult.

The ships had enough to get to Toulon, there would have been nothing to stop them getting to Gibraltar and being topped up.

Sailing to those possessions in the Americas was one of the options given to the French.


If I remember correctly, there was not enough time for a response to and from higher headquarters besides the perceived insult of a lower ranking officer going to see the French.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 37
RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/16/2021 12:19:46 AM   
Elessar2


Posts: 821
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline
Got 3 of them:

1. First person perspective surface combat (yes with all of the 3D chrome), you are the captain, highly detailed controls of pretty much every system, likewise highly detailed modeling of said systems. Yamato, Iowa, Bismarck, Graf Spee, even a DD, merchant raider, PT boat or even a carrier. Part of a chain of command too, dynamic campaign and such. The various Silent Hunter surface mods have given me a taste, but the limitations of sims meant to model submarines not surface warships remain all too obvious.

2. A dynamic multimegaplatform (land/sea/air) sim a la the above, but MMO and persistent world. I loathe the canned 15 minute battles typical of World of Warships or even Call of Duty, with their relatively tiny maps, no chance for any strategy, no larger decisions that matter. I also realize that we kind of have this already with WW2 Online, but there's apparently been zero attempts to expand the gameplay for an engine now approaching its third decade.

3. #2, but for a high fantasy world, with politics, shifting alliances & intrigue, massive wars, wizards and dragons and paladins galore. MMORPGs share a lot of the same issues with other MMO games, in that the devs all feel like to give players too much freedom over their world would doom gameplay, so static worlds are the order of the day. I remain totally unconvinced of this until someone genuinely tries it, and fails.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 38
RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/16/2021 3:52:44 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 45032
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Dream Game? There is one I’d love to see (and may have mentioned it previously)

War in the Mediterranean June 1940 – May 1943 (so would start with Il Duce’s fateful decision to take Italy to war on 10 June 1940 – and end with the Allies evicting the Axis from North Africa)

The game would be a highly detailed air, land and sea game. Daily turns.

For the land and air component, I would want squadron and battalion sized units with NATO symbols.

For the naval element the game would have almost a game within a game. The naval battles would be fought on an almost real-time basis. The units employed would be worked out and the orders given. Movement would then speed through until point of first contact – at which point phases are played out until contact is lost and the time speeds up until contact is made once more.

Great attention to detail would be made to ensure that all the variables that upset many a plan could intervene - naval/air communication issues / intercepting enemy comms or part thereof / bad weather / mechanical issues.

The political machinations of that theatre would be represented in all its myriad of opportunities and costs – or for those seeking more realism, then there would be an ‘historical’ scenario; The British refuse to give up Malta, but the Axis don’t understand why they should invade. There in a nutshell is why the war developed as it did and was so costly to the RN and such a wasted opportunity for the RM.

The game would be aesthetically spectacular; rich, colourful, easy on the eye with plenty of zoom levels for us old timers.

I can’t wait – when does this get made Matrix?


Don't forget the penalty for not attacking the French fleet.
warspite1

Well that is just one of the many, many what-ifs. But I don't know that there is any tangible evidence that points to a specific penalty:

- So if one decides there is a penalty for not doing so then what would that be? And based on what? Did this action really make much difference in Washington for example? Yes supposedly it confirmed the British were serious, but did anything happen that wouldn't have otherwise?

- But then what if the British give the ultimatum, and Gensoul actually does his job (you had one job Gensoul) and gives the full details to Darlan - does that make a difference? Would the game allow a small % chance that Darlan grows a set and does the right thing?

- But if going down the flights of fancy route, then is there also a small % chance that Somerville says "nah, Gensoul is my bro innit bruv, and bros before er... well that doesn't rhymne. Anyways, this ain't happenin' on my watch dude, I'm outta here"


The problem with the phrase "do the right thing" is that the "right thing" is actually different for different people.

Think if the French would have responded "Give us some fuel and food then we will sail to Cayenne!" I actually think that FDR would have provided the fuel and food if he would have been asked to do so.

Otherwise, maybe some French ships actually do get taken over by the Axis. And/Or the French fleet is available at Casablanca, et al, when the Torch invasion is going on. Or even at Tunis when the German land reinforcements arrive, then go aboard said ships before Darlan switches sides . . .
warspite1

Well naturally I am talking about 'do the right thing' with a 21st Century lens. And defeating A. Hitler is doing the right thing in that context.

I don't know what you mean about food and fuel and the French response. It is difficult to envisage a scenario where, less than a month after the armistice, France goes against the agreement and then expects Hitler to simply take it on the chin. Hitler, I suspect, would have collapsed Vichy there and then - and the life expectancy of Petain, Darlan and co suddenly dropped by a huge factor.

There is no reason to believe - with hindsight and given everything we now know - that there would have been any different outcome in terms of French ships and the Axis as a result of no Menace. Why would there be? Darlan said the fleet wouldn't fall into German hands and ultimately he was right. But Churchill didn't know that, and given the veracity of Hitler's previous promises, could be forgiven for not trusting the Germans.


The Germans did not allow the Vichy French much fuel for their fleet so it could not sail away. I presume that food on board would also be somewhat limited as well.

But there were Vichy possessions in the Americas so it would not have been a defection, just a redeployment. Fuel could have been transferred every couple of days but never enough to sail to the Atlantic French ports. The US Navy could have gone along as well.

But if you want uncertainity in the game, then if the British don't attack the French fleet then there could be random events happening to said fleet.

Of course, you could also have France fight on without a Vichy government forming or French North Africa not joining a Vichy government as well.
warspite1

Sorry I referred to Menace earlier - should have said Catapult.

The ships had enough to get to Toulon, there would have been nothing to stop them getting to Gibraltar and being topped up.

Sailing to those possessions in the Americas was one of the options given to the French.


If I remember correctly, there was not enough time for a response to and from higher headquarters besides the perceived insult of a lower ranking officer going to see the French.
warspite1

No there was plenty of time, if there was the will. Somerville so desperately wanted to avoid the debacle he went well over the alloted time.

Both the British and French played at a war they were wholly unprepared for, between September 1939 and May 1940. The loss of France and the installation of Churchill, seemed to shake the British into the reality of the situation. But sadly for France of course, it was all too late.

One can argue both ‘sides’ about the pros and cons of this unpleasant event, and that is fair enough. But detractors of Churchill will use hindsight against him - and that is not.

Ultimately this was just another tragedy in a war of countless many. It was a tragedy for the British, ordered to fire on their friends of just weeks previously, and an even greater one for the French sailors who were on the receiving end.

Anyway I’ve hijacked this thread enough - apologies to the OP - that’s me out.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/16/2021 3:54:31 AM >


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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/16/2021 11:46:17 AM   
RangerJoe


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As far as I am concerned, it further elaborated on what you want in a game.

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/16/2021 2:53:37 PM   
USSAmerica


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I'd be on board for a good computer version of Third Reich. I've owned the board game since I was 13 and only played it a handful of times, but really enjoyed it. I bought the old AH computer version when it came out, but it was so "user unfriendly" that I couldn't invest enough time and energy into it to get anywhere. A new version of it with an intuitive UI and decent AI would be very desirable.

Another dream game is likely to remain only a dream. That is a redone version of WitP:AE with an updated game engine and UI to make everything more easily manageable. It's already the best computer wargame of all time, but her roots in a 19 year old game engine are holding her back now. Sadly, GG has stated he won't do another version.

< Message edited by USSAmerica -- 3/16/2021 2:54:35 PM >


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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/16/2021 5:22:23 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Computer Der Weltkrieg series

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 3/16/2021 5:24:12 PM >


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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/16/2021 11:56:32 PM   
timmyab

 

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I used to play quite a lot of silent hunter 3 and I would like to see a game along similar lines but with surface raiders like Hipper and Graf Spee. With emphasis on realism, both graphics and gameplay.

I would also like a battle of the Atlantic and Mediterranean monster strategy game. Kind of WITE on water


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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 12:38:02 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I used to play quite a lot of silent hunter 3 and I would like to see a game along similar lines but with surface raiders like Hipper and Graf Spee. With emphasis on realism, both graphics and gameplay.

I would also like a battle of the Atlantic and Mediterranean monster strategy game. Kind of WITE on water




:Waves from upthread:

Ditto on #2 there too.

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 10:36:05 AM   
lecrop


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Dreaming...

A 1890-1925 PBEM WEGO with 3' turns tactical naval wargame.

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 2:28:10 PM   
RangerJoe


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Everybody who has posted a dream game, start writing . . .

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 4:49:33 PM   
berto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Everybody who has posted a dream game, start writing . . .

Sure thing, right after I "finish" my current assignments. See my sig.

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 6:07:26 PM   
rico21


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Play a game everyone wants to play!!!

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 6:30:47 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Everybody who has posted a dream game, start writing . . .


Before writing, I prefer to learn the necessary technology and to think gameplay.
Jumping into writing is an error because you will rewrite and rewrite and ...

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 6:33:58 PM   
GenSlack

 

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Yes! ...but will never happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 6:50:22 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Everybody who has posted a dream game, start writing . . .


Before writing, I prefer to learn the necessary technology and to think gameplay.
Jumping into writing is an error because you will rewrite and rewrite and ...


Not quite what I meant. Write down what you want the game to do.

Do you want logistics in a North Afrikan campaign? How about the entire Med?

Then decide, is there an amount of supplies dumped somewhere? Will it be variable? If so, when and why? Is it separated into fuel, ammo, and/or fuel or just supplies? Will you have someone find barrels of fuel on a beach? Don't laugh, the Germans did just that. Or will you have to haul the supplies from the Italian mainland and/or Sicily? Then there is naval and air interception to either defend against or perform.

The same thing for all other aspects. No coding yet, just write it out in whatever language that you want to use that is readable. You would want to be verbose and not use shorthand because you might just forget exactly what you meant by that. Think of the 8.3 file format. You or someone else can do the coding later, probably LOTS of subroutines to bring together.

I would type more but a cat wants to type as well..+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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RE: What is your dream (digital ) game or games? - 3/17/2021 7:53:52 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

No coding yet, just write it out in whatever language that you want to use that is readable


Then I agree. I was thinking writing code.

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