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RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 3:36:37 AM   
IslandInland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

WITE 2 replaces WITW as the greatest computer wargame ever made.



OMG.

If they had dumped the 'combat as movement' fantasy I might have agreed.

Again, opinions and belly buttons, everyone has one.


I don't follow your tweets/Insta/FB or read your posts so I've no idea what you mean by this.






BTW, I don't FB, Insta except for instant coffee nor tweet even to the birds.



I forgot. The GD is mostly just twats.



_____________________________

War In The East 2 Beta Tester and
War In The West Operation Torch Beta Tester

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 61
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 7:59:25 AM   
fran52


Posts: 598
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From: Italy
Status: offline
By rephrasing the topic title and another topic started by me,i suggest to develop the Mediterannean war with the engine of WITE2.
What seems appropriate to me,is the supply system with depots.So we could have a depot at Alessandria,Tripoli or Tobruk,now must be developed the naval system to replenishing depots with all the consequences,naval battle for the convoy,air attack to the convoy and so on.
The supply engine could reproduce the supply difficult of the troups when the supply line becomes to long,frequent problem in North Africa.
Could be a good idea?

(in reply to IslandInland)
Post #: 62
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 8:48:21 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 44998
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From: England
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Sadly what seems clear after all these years of wargaming - board and computer - is that the Med theatre is not economically viable. The exception of course is the land war and so long as Rommel and the Afrika Korps features heavily, in the title or the box art, then the game will sell.

Maybe its just economics, or maybe a truly detailed land, sea and air Mediterranean Campaign 1940-43 is just too much on the difficult pile.

Such a shame.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to fran52)
Post #: 63
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 9:05:19 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1276
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

WITE 2 replaces WITW as the greatest computer wargame ever made.

Behold the Word of the Almighty! Easter came earlier this year!

I opened the product's page, and a light shone so brightly that it gave me a tan.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to IslandInland)
Post #: 64
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 10:15:30 AM   
ksnoopy

 

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With the great sale recently on GoG and the sitewide 30% off for Easter I just bought and started digging into Gary's series - WitP, WitW, WitE2. A lot to learn but the games look great! Hopefully Gary or someone else continues to work on this great series

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 65
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 10:39:12 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10029
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sadly what seems clear after all these years of wargaming - board and computer - is that the Med theatre is not economically viable. The exception of course is the land war and so long as Rommel and the Afrika Korps features heavily, in the title or the box art, then the game will sell.

Maybe its just economics, or maybe a truly detailed land, sea and air Mediterranean Campaign 1940-43 is just too much on the difficult pile.

Such a shame.


Given the scenarios in the Torch expansion, and that the WiTE2 logistics model gives a good feel for over-extension and its consequences, I'd suggest the basics for the land war around the Med are present. Clearly you'd need to model the wider decision making and events, but if you hooked up the start date to 22 June 1941 then some of the more esoteric politics fall away?

the key is that none of the Witx have a naval element that really works. The representation is fine for the situations in the existing games but clearly no where near enough for 1941-43 (or 40-43).

And however, you cut it, that is both a challenge and very hard to fit onto a land scale?

So I fear you are probably right - an awful lot of work for probably a relatively small audience (even by the standards of the WiTx games)?

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 66
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 11:17:16 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1276
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Again, opinions and belly buttons, everyone has one.

Not everybody: Adam and Eve hadn't one, and they always listened to the last entity they spoke to. It didn't end well...

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 67
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 11:32:51 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4639
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Maybe its just economics, or maybe a truly detailed land, sea and air Mediterranean Campaign 1940-43 is just too much on the difficult pile.

Surely it is both...basically the economics aren't there to develop what in effect would be three games in one--land, air, and sea. I'm sure such a game could (would?) be made if there were a large enough market for it, but that seems to be in doubt.

But I feel your pain, the games I want never seem to get developed either. So many games are so close, but lack some feature that makes all the difference (games with no editor...tactical games with no multi-story buildings...games with no stacking...I could go on and on).

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 68
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 1:31:17 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1658
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Sometimes what works in Europe simply won't work in the Pacific (game design wise that is).

I like A3R. But trying to cram A3R together with Rising Sun, only led to World at War, which is a VERY high-priced tagged product I probably wouldn't play for the same reason I can't play Europa. No one has a table big enough for Fire in the East let alone a space as big as something that has all the way from the Urals to the Atlantic and from North Norway to the middle of Africa.

But A3R did the Med just fine. The Med doesn't need a game that is just the Med. It just needs a game that starts out as the entire complete Theatre. So War in the East 1 or 2, ideally needs to be built with WitW in mind from the beginning in such a way that the North African campaign was included, meaning it has to begin in 1939.

Or in other words, WitE2 should have been released in 2025 and a complete theatre like A3R. A rebuild of the best of both WitE and WitW and back dated to 1939.
I think WitE2 was too timid. Yes, I said timid.

it would have cost me ever seeing Steel Tigers, but Gary could retire in 2025 and never need to wonder if his name would ever be forgotten :)
Or it might have killed him :)
I've seen people finish a work of genius, and never recover from the creation.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 69
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 1:37:23 PM   
Zovs


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From: United States
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At one time out in my garage I set up 2 sheets of plywood on 8 saw horses and had all of FitE and SE setup, I did not have room for the Uruals. I also had two doors one on each side laying flat full of all the charts. I spent 2 years playing and got from Jun II 41 to Nov II 43 when I had to move. I had two spots on the maps where mold spores had grown, lol.

< Message edited by Zovs -- 4/3/2021 1:38:04 PM >


_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 70
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 1:42:55 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

I forgot. The GD is mostly just twats.



I don't know GD. Is it for Großdeutschland or General Dynamics or Gangsta Desciples or an epithet or Geometry Dash browser or any one of these acronyms? https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/GD

And:
Bearing that in mind, all Members must agree to follow these simple rules:

No foul language or any type of language that would be consider abusive this includes any materials which are knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, sexual oriented, vulgar, obscene, hateful, harassing, profane, racist, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or that otherwise violates any local, state, national or international law or regulation.


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to IslandInland)
Post #: 71
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 2:03:12 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 44998
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

But A3R did the Med just fine. The Med doesn't need a game that is just the Med. It just needs a game that starts out as the entire complete Theatre. So War in the East 1 or 2, ideally needs to be built with WitW in mind from the beginning in such a way that the North African campaign was included, meaning it has to begin in 1939.

warspite1

Well we can agree to disagree - and I certainly disagree with this. There are two reasons:

a) the whole point of a properly detailed War In The Mediterranean (WITM) game is that we can get a properly detailed WITM game. If you are going to bolt this on to a War in the West / War in the East game then you need the same level of naval detail for the latter two games. That is not going to be easy to accomplish let alone code and would add a huge level of time for something that was not particularly critical to each theatre.

b) Secondly the scale, unit numbers etc for WITE, WITW and WITM are very different. But again, what is thought practical for a game with the sheer number of divisions as WITE employs is not necessarily going to be right for WITM where the unit density is so much less, and a different level of granularity can be achieved.

...and if you want to take the game back to 1939, well that would be the whole war in Europe you are wanting at a battalion, individual ship, individual aircraft level... Wow!!

The Mediterranean theatre was very different, had very different issues


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 72
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 2:10:45 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 44998
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

I forgot. The GD is mostly just twats.



I don't know GD. Is it for Großdeutschland or General Dynamics or Gangsta Desciples or an epithet or Geometry Dash browser or any one of these acronyms? https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/GD

And:
Bearing that in mind, all Members must agree to follow these simple rules:

No foul language or any type of language that would be consider abusive this includes any materials which are knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, sexual oriented, vulgar, obscene, hateful, harassing, profane, racist, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or that otherwise violates any local, state, national or international law or regulation.

warspite1

No need to get all upset. He was obviously talking about the GrossDeutschland Regiment. They were known in the German army from the very beginning as being a bunch of twats. It's well documented. Indeed if you've ever watched that ground breaking documentary series from the 70's - The World at War (narrated by Larry Olivier, dear dear Larry) - you may recall Speer mentioned just this.

Episode 20 - I've got a luvverly bunch of koconuts:

Albert Speer: You know I zaid to ze Fuhrer in ze autumn of 44 zat ve shoult attack in ze Ardennes and zat if ve do, zen ve shoult lead off wiz ze GD Regiment. Zay could take ze first lozzes and it vould zerve zem right for being a buch ov twats.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 73
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 2:11:34 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well we can agree to disagree - and I certainly disagree with this. There are two reasons:

a) the whole point of a properly detailed War In The Mediterranean (WITM) game is that we can get a properly detailed WITM game. If you are going to bolt this on to a War in the West / War in the East game then you need the same level of naval detail for the latter two games. That is not going to be easy to accomplish let alone code and would add a huge level of time for something that was not particularly critical to each theatre.

b) Secondly the scale, unit numbers etc for WITE, WITW and WITM are very different. But again, what is thought practical for a game with the sheer number of divisions as WITE employs is not necessarily going to be right for WITM where the unit density is so much less, and a different level of granularity can be achieved.

...and if you want to take the game back to 1939, well that would be the whole war in Europe you are wanting at a battalion, individual ship, individual aircraft level... Wow!!

The Mediterranean theatre was very different, had very different issues



Aye, apples and oranges. Just the terrain would demand a different approach.


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 74
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 2:15:35 PM   
Grognerd_INC


Posts: 1194
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From: CA native, retired in FL
Status: offline
You know truthfully, there are few games computer or board games that successfully blend naval, air and land combat into a viable war game. Generally it's two out of three or one with extremely simplified rules.

I think I'd enjoy a more comprehensive game that covered all very well.

_____________________________

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 75
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 2:16:40 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12637
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well we can agree to disagree - and I certainly disagree with this. There are two reasons:

a) the whole point of a properly detailed War In The Mediterranean (WITM) game is that we can get a properly detailed WITM game. If you are going to bolt this on to a War in the West / War in the East game then you need the same level of naval detail for the latter two games. That is not going to be easy to accomplish let alone code and would add a huge level of time for something that was not particularly critical to each theatre.

b) Secondly the scale, unit numbers etc for WITE, WITW and WITM are very different. But again, what is thought practical for a game with the sheer number of divisions as WITE employs is not necessarily going to be right for WITM where the unit density is so much less, and a different level of granularity can be achieved.

...and if you want to take the game back to 1939, well that would be the whole war in Europe you are wanting at a battalion, individual ship, individual aircraft level... Wow!!

The Mediterranean theatre was very different, had very different issues


Aye, apples and oranges. Just the terrain would demand a different approach.


Yes, don't forget to include the water holes. Not to mention the effect of "The enemy just dropped a mortar shell down the almost dry water hole, what is the effect of that?

Yes, that did happen in a movie!

But as far as apples and oranges go, combining them possibly with others as well is how you get fruit salad.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 76
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 2:33:48 PM   
Grognerd_INC


Posts: 1194
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From: CA native, retired in FL
Status: offline
Here is another (unfortunaetley expensive)naval war game for your review.
Admiral's War, basically Victory in the Pacific & War at Sea blended together with some extra rules thrown in. There is a kick-starter to reprint this game with a Black Sea expansion.

Admiral's War

_____________________________

Formerly Grognerd, currently Doc Savage

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 77
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 2:36:20 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13027
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sadly what seems clear after all these years of wargaming - board and computer - is that the Med theatre is not economically viable. The exception of course is the land war and so long as Rommel and the Afrika Korps features heavily, in the title or the box art, then the game will sell.

Maybe its just economics, or maybe a truly detailed land, sea and air Mediterranean Campaign 1940-43 is just too much on the difficult pile.

Such a shame.

I fully intend for TOAW to be capable of it someday. Then you can make your own.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 78
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 3:24:25 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1658
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline
"..and if you want to take the game back to 1939, well that would be the whole war in Europe you are wanting at a battalion, individual ship, individual aircraft level... Wow!!"

Basically yes. Hey, I didn't say 'I' was making it :)

I'm ok playing A3R though. The Uboat war and strategic bombing is done good enough for my needs. The Med is a major factor in the war, and can't be ignored or downplayed. The ground war is very definitely trash France damned fast because you live or die in Russia. If you mangle the desert war, you regret it. Getting troops to African deserts is a major undertaking for either side.
A3R models the war excellently.

I'm just surprised no one has shamelessly copied the mechanics and called it something else for legal reasons. Strategic Command is very close. But insisting on using counters for subs and counters for bombers completely drops the ball. A3R forcing you to budget the entire year cautiously can't be ignored. They fuss too much on design elements like evolving the counters. In A3R infantry is just infantry and armour is just armour. Research is just not as vital in A3R as it is in computer wargames. Politics is everything in A3R. Economics is everything in A3R. You can't go to war if you're broke. You WANT to launch an offensive, but you don't have the resources.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 79
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 3:25:48 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC

Here is another (unfortunaetley expensive)naval war game for your review.
Admiral's War, basically Victory in the Pacific & War at Sea blended together with some extra rules thrown in. There is a kick-starter to reprint this game with a Black Sea expansion.

Admiral's War


Love the counters. Reminds me of East Wind Rain.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Grognerd_INC)
Post #: 80
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 3:28:35 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Again, opinions and belly buttons, everyone has one.

Not everybody: Adam and Eve hadn't one, and they always listened to the last entity they spoke to. It didn't end well...



One of these days I'll have the money to buy WitP:AE. Hopefully I won't regret it like I did with a different game that cost about the same.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/3/2021 3:30:14 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 81
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 3:52:01 PM   
Grognerd_INC


Posts: 1194
Joined: 11/17/2005
From: CA native, retired in FL
Status: offline
I own WITP/AE, played it a lot. To get the most out of it plan on playing another human - The AI really can't handle a game with this complexity, so if you buy and think your going to play against the computer and get a decent game, I think you will be disappointed.



_____________________________

Formerly Grognerd, currently Doc Savage

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 82
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 3:53:16 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12637
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Again, opinions and belly buttons, everyone has one.

Not everybody: Adam and Eve hadn't one, and they always listened to the last entity they spoke to. It didn't end well...



One of these days I'll have the money to buy WitP:AE. Hopefully I won't regret it like I did with a different game that cost about the same.


You should have bought it last year when it was steeply discounted.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 83
RE: After WitE2... - 4/3/2021 4:08:37 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4908
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
It's a matter of having the money at the time. Poor luck.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 84
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