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Tank speed should mater in combat

 
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Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/6/2021 1:52:54 PM   
zgrssd

 

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Currently the speed of Tank/Other Combat vehicle only maters outside of combat - on the strategic map.
So we are actually incentivised to make the slowest, heaviest armored tanks that are possible. We make light tanks that are heavy and slow.

But what if the Speed Modifier matered in combat? Specifically small arms defense?
In WW1 the Mark I-X Tanks were notorious for being really good in offense - but you better bail out of you are on the defense. Every infanterist with a Sock-Mine could kill you and it is not like they could just drive off.
Near the end of WW2, Tanks increasingly faced the Bazooka/Panzerschreck/RPG type weapons.

The idea for the modifier being tied to small arms defense:
A slow tank is easiert to sneak up on with small arms and improvised weapons. It has to move predictable paths, it is slow to change firing position, etc. - all things that make them easy targets for small arms.
A fast tank meanwhile gets to choose the safest route and reposition often and quickly, making any attempts to bring small arms to bear against them a lot harder.
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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/6/2021 3:45:53 PM   
BlueTemplar


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Yes for speed mattering,
but isn't there already a better mechanic to influence ?
quote:

5.10.15.3. subunIt attaCk
[...]
Modifiers
Attack start up modif ier
Some Model Types have limited effectiveness in the first 2 combat round
when they belong to the offensive side in the battle. For Tanks this is -37%
for the first round and -25% the second round, for the others it is -75% for
the first round and -50% the second round.
The whole objective of the rule is to model the effect of the fact that it takes
the attacker a bit of time to advance towards the enemy positions and to
reach a position where they can actually start effectively attacking the enemy.
That is also why tanks have less of a start-up penalty than infantry.
(and maybe Initiative ? and maybe Retreats ?? and maybe Breakthrough ???)

(Also "only mattering outside of combat" is already pretty big, as it indirectly influences modifiers like Readiness and Supply Consumption, and Concentric...)

P.S.: The other examples that you talk about might be already covered by things like side skirts and lack of defensive bonuses for tanks and terrain ? Not easy to sneak up on even a slow tank on a flat salt plain...

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/6/2021 3:48:13 PM >

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/6/2021 10:49:26 PM   
shabowie

 

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I thought speed translated to action points somehow, always seemed like my heavier tanks ran out of attacks first.

If it has no combat effect that does seem wrong.

< Message edited by shabowie -- 3/6/2021 10:59:42 PM >

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/7/2021 3:04:58 PM   
BlueTemplar


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AFAIK they take more APs to move, including the tile you have to move to attack.

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/7/2021 6:20:10 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shabowie

I thought speed translated to action points somehow, always seemed like my heavier tanks ran out of attacks first.

If it has no combat effect that does seem wrong.



quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

AFAIK they take more APs to move, including the tile you have to move to attack.

It is kinda there but does not realy affect combat:
- you need a proof that you have enough AP to enter a hex. That is why tanks can not attack/aid attack into High mountaints anymore then they could normally move into
- however those AP are not actually substracted from your AP
- you have to pay 10 AP/combat round. Meaning that if you start at 100 AP, you get the full 10 rounds.
- after the combat your AP are always set to 0
- but asuming that hex is now free (meamning your side won), you get a free move into the hex you just fought over

So you need enough AP that you could have normally entered, Nr. of combat rounds is not affected, but you are set to 0 AP afterwards anyway - except for the free victory move.

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/7/2021 7:00:10 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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Nah, the actual AP cost for attacks is the higher of either the AP cost of moving into the hex, or 10 times the number of combat rounds. If you dislodge the enemy in few enough combat rounds, it's possible to have AP remaining and attack again, which means fast armor can potentially break through multiple enemy-held hexes - quite helpful for encirclements.

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/8/2021 4:57:32 PM   
BlueTemplar


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Still, I guess that currently the faster than average Trucks / Motorbikes / Jetpacks ... don't get any bonuses in the combat itself, while one would expect them to be able to rely on their mobility to keep out of harm's way, since they can't rely on thick plating !

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/8/2021 6:45:13 PM   
BlueTemplar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Currently the speed of Tank/Other Combat vehicle only maters outside of combat - on the strategic map.
So we are actually incentivised to make the slowest, heaviest armored tanks that are possible. We make light tanks that are heavy and slow.

But what if the Speed Modifier matered in combat? Specifically small arms defense?
In WW1 the Mark I-X Tanks were notorious for being really good in offense - but you better bail out of you are on the defense. Every infanterist with a Sock-Mine could kill you and it is not like they could just drive off.
Near the end of WW2, Tanks increasingly faced the Bazooka/Panzerschreck/RPG type weapons.

The idea for the modifier being tied to small arms defense:
A slow tank is easiert to sneak up on with small arms and improvised weapons. It has to move predictable paths, it is slow to change firing position, etc. - all things that make them easy targets for small arms.
A fast tank meanwhile gets to choose the safest route and reposition often and quickly, making any attempts to bring small arms to bear against them a lot harder.

Some of this might *already* be in the game :

As I was comparing similarly equipped tanks thanks to the excellent Tank Design Calculator,
I'm noticing the following evolution :

(All have 100 Rolls for the 3 Design Stats, Side Skirts, no Applied Science bonuses, a 60mm High Velocity Gun, 100mm Steel Plating, and a Heavy Diesel Engine, though that has no effect on HP, Attack or Defense values.)

Tank : Light - Medium - Heavy - Monitor :
Soft HP : 665 - 588 - 503 - 515
Hard HP : 930 - 970 - 1010 - 1160
(Attack and Defense values don't change.)

This HP evolution is therefore tied with the Extra Move Modifier from Size (which the Tank Design Calculator doesn't take into account yet) :
0% - -10% - -20% - (-30%?)
(Of course, there's still the interaction between Weight and Engine Power which gives the other Movement Modifier.)

To resume, you can see that with increasing Tank Size :
Soft HP goes down,
Hard HP goes up,
"base" movement malus goes up.

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/12/2021 9:14:07 AM   
Zanotirn

 

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That is described in the manual (5.12.3.7), but it's related to size, not speed.

"Bulky Vehicles vulnerable to infantry

However, the bulkier the vehicle, the more it will be exposed to sneaky
infantry attacks."

(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/12/2021 9:19:39 AM   
BlueTemplar


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It's indirectly related to "speed" because size adds an extra movement penalty.

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/12/2021 3:15:26 PM   
zgrssd

 

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But I would prefer if it was directly tied into the speed. So it makes no difference if the Light tank or Monitor tank is clocking in at -70%

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/12/2021 4:01:19 PM   
BlueTemplar


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Yeah, this sounds better. And would have an effect on other units than tanks.

However, currently tank size (tied to speed penalty) also gives a bonus to hard HP - I'm not sure of the reasoning behind that, it feels like both slower movement and bigger size should give penalties against *both* soft and hard targets ?

In fact, bigger size feels like it should give defense (rather than HP, why is it a separate number BTW, where does it matter to have them separate ?) penalties across the board (so a much smaller Light Tank would still be harder to hit than the gigantic Monitor),

while at the same time a combat bonus / penalty should depend on *relative* subunit speeds. But slow tanks would then be not only "on equal footing" against infantry (though infantry would still take full advantage of entrenchment and defensive postures), but be even worse against fast subunits - but fast subunits would have trouble (like they already do) to mount high caliber weapons and thick armor.

I guess here might be introduced some turret aiming and ordinance saturation factors : for frontal units and broken-through-artillery, larger bore sizes would give a penalty against faster units ?

(Also, Monitor should *really* get dedicated Diesel and Electric Engines.)

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/12/2021 4:03:40 PM >

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/14/2021 10:31:56 AM   
BlueTemplar


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Well, the penultimate one is already partially taken care of by :
quote:

5.10.15.2. Combat stePs looP
[...]
Furthermore, artillery capable Subunits cannot fire on enemy Subunits that
have broken through.


Also, I first didn't think it was a good idea to have movement penalties tied to size only,
but thinking more about it, I realized that air friction might come in play.
*However*, it shouldn't be an *additive* factor like now, but a *multiplicative* one :
an already slow Monitor tank should get a smaller penalty than a fast Monitor tank ! (but a bigger penalty than a "starting out exactly as slow" Light Tank)

While I'm at it, there's also the issue with current movement modifiers being "inside out" :
It doesn't make sense to display them as +/-% movement modifiers, while the game actually then uses them as -/+% movement costs !
And it isn't only cosmetic :
A -100% movement speed model logically shouldn't be able to move, and the manual seems to indicate that it is so,
*however*, in practice this should "only" be a doubling of the AP cost, so an effective "-50% movement speed" !
And the other way around :
A +100% movement speed model logically should move at twice the speed, resulting in a halved AP cost,
but in practice in the game -
(if it let you do it, which it probably won't, since this seems like it would require an infinite engine power to weight ratio, so at least on this level it's working fine - though I haven't really looked into it ..?)
- it seems that it would result in a -100% AP cost, giving the unit infinite moves !
(Also, why are the movement bonuses/penalties the only ones quantized to +5%/-10% ?)

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/14/2021 10:33:59 AM >

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/14/2021 12:12:52 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

A -100% movement speed model logically shouldn't be able to move, and the manual seems to indicate that it is so,
*however*, in practice this should "only" be a doubling of the AP cost, so an effective "-50% movement speed" !

Any Movement modifier of worse then -70% (weight is > 5 times what the engine can move) will be unable to move using AP.
It can still be moved using Strategic Redeployment - the same way the automated defenses can be moved.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
Post #: 14
RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/22/2021 9:50:45 AM   
BlueTemplar


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Have you managed to actually replicate this ?

That's certainly not the case for the model sizes that add an extra movement AP cost penalty :
I have a +80% Monitor that is still moving !

----

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
quote:

ORIGINAL: shabowie

I thought speed translated to action points somehow, always seemed like my heavier tanks ran out of attacks first.

If it has no combat effect that does seem wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
AFAIK they take more APs to move, including the tile you have to move to attack.

It is kinda there but does not realy affect combat:
- you need a proof that you have enough AP to enter a hex. That is why tanks can not attack/aid attack into High mountaints anymore then they could normally move into
- however those AP are not actually substracted from your AP
- you have to pay 10 AP/combat round. Meaning that if you start at 100 AP, you get the full 10 rounds.
- after the combat your AP are always set to 0
- but asuming that hex is now free (meamning your side won), you get a free move into the hex you just fought over

So you need enough AP that you could have normally entered, Nr. of combat rounds is not affected, but you are set to 0 AP afterwards anyway - except for the free victory move.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Nah, the actual AP cost for attacks is the higher of either the AP cost of moving into the hex, or 10 times the number of combat rounds. If you dislodge the enemy in few enough combat rounds, it's possible to have AP remaining and attack again, which means fast armor can potentially break through multiple enemy-held hexes - quite helpful for encirclements.


Yeah, all of this is annoyingly inconsistent, makes it harder for new players to get in the game... and might even be worse for gameplay ?

Why *wouldn't* for a unit a tactical combat round cost the same AP as moving on the hex that the operational combat takes place in ?
(Some re-balancing might be required though ?)

The "move oil" in the model management window could be for 100 AP (whether combat or movement, which would now be the same)-
(even though units can have more or less than 100, it's at least a good ballpark)
- while the fuel use expenditure in the model popup could be for 1 AP ?

But I guess I(/we) are starting to repeat my/ourselves..?

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/22/2021 9:51:45 AM >

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/22/2021 11:56:36 AM   
BlueTemplar


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After some more though about it I think that I see why making it fully consistent might be hard :
- For instance, without other tweaks, a 100 AP infantry would only have 2-3 rounds of combat when attacking into flat (!) enemy territory (45 AP cost) !
- On defense too, 100 AP infantry would only get at best 100/25 = 4 rounds of combat.
(Of course the numbers could be rebalanced...)
- Also, you could have units lose readiness each combat round like if they had moved that distance (at least for the units on the operational offense ?)

Another change that I though of is to have speed matter in how *soon* you get to make those tactical attacks :
- A combat would be 10 rounds if the unit with the most AP participating in it has 100 AP.
- Some of the rounds, the units that haven't "spent" enough AP yet, would not get to attack (they could still counter-attack).
(- Fast units and/or units with lots of AP could still do multiple operational offensives in a single strategic round if they managed to kill / force to retreat / force to surrender all the operationally defending units before the combat was 100% over.)

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/22/2021 12:50:13 PM   
zgrssd

 

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After a few corrections, I figured out the AP for attacks:
- the attack costs the unit the AP to move into the Hex or 10 AP/Combat Round, wichever is higher
- a unit that was part of a attack that was a victory, can move into the attacked hex for free (after all, the cost was already paid)
- a long combat leaves a "AP Battle cost" penalty on the hex. Example: As 1 gameturn equals about 2 earth months, that simulates that it took the attacker 1.5 months to clear the region. Meaning whoever moves into there after them, has only about 0.5 Months worth of time to do stuff (like Entrench, Artillery shell enemies, etc.)

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 3/22/2021 12:51:03 PM >

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 3/22/2021 3:36:49 PM   
BlueTemplar


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I don't remember, can the battle AP penalties stack up ?

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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 4/11/2021 10:18:40 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

I don't remember, can the battle AP penalties stack up ?

Based on how it is described, it should use the highest figure. But I think in practice, I only ever saw the figure of the attack that actually displaced the enemy apply - meaning any attack that failed for all 10 turns is not counted at all.
This surcharge represents "units havign to wait for weeks for the enemy to be thrown out of the hex", thus being less able to move beyond the hex.


Back on the topic of speed and comabt values, I noticed something comparable:
5.10.7.2. fuel
If you lack fuel, you will not be as mobile as the ideal self.
The same way a slow speed would mean you will not be as mobile.
And the steps for "rounds of fuel remaining" should even match the steps in the movement speed penalty

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
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RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 4/11/2021 11:11:28 PM   
arvcran2

 

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Combined weight, combined mass, ground friction/traction, and inertia would affect mobility, and fuel consumption as well.

Weight and mass of remaining fuel would directly impact performance and it is not necessarily a linear curve.

I suppose the remaining rounds would depend on the type of activity required to maintain contact. Retreating vs bunkered targets comes to mind for extremes.

Interesting thread.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 20
RE: Tank speed should mater in combat - 4/12/2021 11:05:10 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: arvcran2

Combined weight, combined mass, ground friction/traction, and inertia would affect mobility, and fuel consumption as well.

Weight and mass of remaining fuel would directly impact performance and it is not necessarily a linear curve.

I suppose the remaining rounds would depend on the type of activity required to maintain contact. Retreating vs bunkered targets comes to mind for extremes.

Interesting thread.

Let us not overthink the Plumbing.

Weight is already part of the fuel and movement speed formulas.
Traction or a equivalent is only considered for Airplanes, as they have to go the distance on a single fuel tank.
And the penalty for lacking fuel varries based on if you are the attacker or defender (less for defender) - same way Ammo consumption tends to be less for defenders.

(in reply to arvcran2)
Post #: 21
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