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Road movement - 3/5/2021 7:36:24 PM   
Hanny


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In today’s manual is the road class and movement, in H DV 90 Vorersorgung des Felheers it uses a forumula, which includes road conditions, to calculate expected road movement, does the game generate the the same ratio, tons per mile, of movement rates as the Field Manual?..

< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/5/2021 7:39:40 PM >


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RE: Road movement - 3/5/2021 8:44:59 PM   
RedLancer


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Not directly, and for a number of reasons:

- Movement rules are not primarily set by supply and the document you quote is a Supply Manual.
- Trucks are a generic game abstraction as I have explained in response to a previous question you raised.
- I don't believe that the Soviets, Slovaks, Hungarians and Rumanians used the same metrics so the game uses a workable average for all nations.

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RE: Road movement - 3/5/2021 8:57:36 PM   
Light4bettor

 

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Red,

If I may ask, curious to find out how pre-Barbarossa road quality and road network in Western Russia/ Soviet Occupied Belarus/Poland/Ukraine was determined? Using Soviet 1930s primary sources (say gov't studies), or the maybe the cartography work that was done by the Germans during the time they occupied the area?

Just want further my own research if you know. Thanks.

< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 3/5/2021 8:58:08 PM >

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RE: Road movement - 3/5/2021 9:19:40 PM   
RedLancer


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I spent many hours reviewing contemporary maps with a good dose of what seemed right. It all boils down to a MP value in a hex set by weather and terrain.

I'll make the following observation - WitE2 is a game and we have tried to make things as historically sympathetic as the code allows. It uses 10 mile hexes and week long turns. I'm now waiting for someone to ask what the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine? When they do I'm sure the intent is to show they know more than we do.

Anyway here's an example of something I used:




Attachment (1)

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RE: Road movement - 3/5/2021 9:46:53 PM   
MAS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

I spent many hours reviewing contemporary maps with a good dose of what seemed right. It all boils down to a MP value in a hex set by weather and terrain.

I'll make the following observation - WitE2 is a game and we have tried to make things as historically sympathetic as the code allows. It uses 10 mile hexes and week long turns. I'm now waiting for someone to ask what the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine? When they do I'm sure the intent is to show they know more than we do.

Anyway here's an example of something I used:




Ha! Pretty funny. :-) This is an amazing map! Are these all rail lines or a mix of rail and road? Can you briefly describe the difference between the double black lines, double red lines, think red lines, etc?

Thank you.

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RE: Road movement - 3/5/2021 9:50:37 PM   
Light4bettor

 

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Thanks Red!,

For taking the time to show and respond. +1

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RE: Road movement - 3/5/2021 10:00:43 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

Not directly, and for a number of reasons:

- Movement rules are not primarily set by supply and the document you quote is a Supply Manual.
- Trucks are a generic game abstraction as I have explained in response to a previous question you raised.
- I don't believe that the Soviets, Slovaks, Hungarians and Rumanians used the same metrics so the game uses a workable average for all nations.

FYI, you answered Henricks question, I did not ask a question.
Secondly the QM manual formula is generic, and is for any truck for any nation, driving any number of hours, as it calculates number of journeys, at ton capacity, average speed, number of Truck Coys, condition of road type.









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RE: Road movement - 3/5/2021 10:09:02 PM   
Light4bettor

 

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MAS, maybe you saw it, but on the very bottom of the map, the legend is differentiating between primary and secondary roads (and between 1 lane and 2 lane at least). It doesn't say anything about rail lines(as far as I know), but in terms of roads, it's probably 1 lane roads and 2 lane roads, some secondary and some primary. My 2 cents.

Also, no doubt that some roads ran parallel to some rail lines in certain areas.

From my readings, I always assumed that the Minsk-Moscow highway was the best road in Russia, perhaps I may need to reassess.

Anyway the English translation I got for "Durchgangstrassen" is "thoroughfares", which I take to mean main primary roads; and "Strassen zwei (2.) Ordnung," translated- "second order roads" (secondary roads). Of course the best roads would be paved, so I'm gonna guess the black lines are the highest quality roads. (I'm just guessing though).

It looks like Model's 3rd Pz divison (XXIV Pz Korps) was somewhat following that good quality road through to Kirchev during the 1st 6 weeeks of Barbarossa. And I'm gonna deduce that Panzerstrasse 1 that is talked about in German documents is in fact that road (runs from Brest Litovsk through Kirchev and beyond).

< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 3/5/2021 11:04:36 PM >

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RE: Road movement - 3/5/2021 10:16:15 PM   
Light4bettor

 

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accident repost

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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 2:57:22 AM   
MAS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

MAS, maybe you saw it, but on the very bottom of the map, the legend is differentiating between primary and secondary roads (and between 1 lane and 2 lane at least). It doesn't say anything about rail lines(as far as I know), but in terms of roads, it's probably 1 lane roads and 2 lane roads, some secondary and some primary. My 2 cents.

Also, no doubt that some roads ran parallel to some rail lines in certain areas.

From my readings, I always assumed that the Minsk-Moscow highway was the best road in Russia, perhaps I may need to reassess.

Anyway the English translation I got for "Durchgangstrassen" is "thoroughfares", which I take to mean main primary roads; and "Strassen zwei (2.) Ordnung," translated- "second order roads" (secondary roads). Of course the best roads would be paved, so I'm gonna guess the black lines are the highest quality roads. (I'm just guessing though).

It looks like Model's 3rd Pz divison (XXIV Pz Korps) was somewhat following that good quality road through to Kirchev during the 1st 6 weeeks of Barbarossa. And I'm gonna deduce that Panzerstrasse 1 that is talked about in German documents is in fact that road (runs from Brest Litovsk through Kirchev and beyond).


I was thinking the same thing re: the 'best road' as Minsk-Moscow. It appears to be Brest-Bobruisk-Moscow, or Panzerstrasse 1 as you point out. On the other hand I've come across many mentions by the Germans that they had really poor maps that sometimes showed roads where none existed, or showed good quality roads where the found a dirt track for farm carts instead. I wonder if this is one of those maps?

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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 4:37:47 AM   
keitherson


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What is the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine?

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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 5:43:46 AM   
Light4bettor

 

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quote:

MAS: I was thinking the same thing re: the 'best road' as Minsk-Moscow. It appears to be Brest-Bobruisk-Moscow, or Panzerstrasse 1 as you point out. On the other hand I've come across many mentions by the Germans that they had really poor maps that sometimes showed roads where none existed, or showed good quality roads where the found a dirt track for farm carts instead. I wonder if this is one of those maps?



Yes- Brest -Brobruisk-Moscow makes sense (Smolensk- Mosocow highway too)
Interesting question: I can't answer, but it appears that the Germans may of had teams mapping the areas under their control (the territory conquered after Barbarossa-- places behind Army Group North / Center / and South-- plus captured Soviet maps that were probably used to update/cross check their battle maps: then again once they determined captured soviet military maps were accurate they may have just Germanized the place names and copied everything else). And those maps were subsequently used and were now super accurate (including thickly wooded areas and even it seems small trails).

So, what you can do (and I plan to do a bit of this in the future) is cross check German/Soviet primary sources (that contain their original maps based on new info they got) with what you have and check for accuracy.

I'll include an example I screenshotted- its a map used by the 35 Infanterie-Divison in winter 43/44 (thats the info the site gives;and in this case they might be off a bit but its an excellent site overall). most military maps use the scale of 1 kilometer by 1 kilometer per square. Notice all the place names are in German- even the smallest locales are named. This is Mogilev. I got it from https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 3/6/2021 7:21:54 AM >

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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 6:09:28 AM   
Light4bettor

 

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Another way (besides going to an excellent library to do research at period maps like Red Lancer got access to and was kind enough to show us an example of)is to look for Post war documents produced by Officers. This one in particular was made by a German officer for the Americans after the war--- as an aide to his description and analysis of clearing operations in the first 3-7 days of Barbarossa in Malorita (that town 30 miles south of Brest Litovsk). Notice his map shows 3 levels of roads and single and double track railroads in its map legend. Of course more research is needed to verify/ check, but this is stuff that is a start (I'm doing this to expand my knowledge of the conflict.) Check out a single line track branching off a double line track 15 miles west of Kobryn.

Hell, if you Google Earth Belarus (and elsewhere, compare Mogilev-even the downtown city streets are the same now.) you'll find that alot of these rail lines and roads cover the same spots still (as one would expect).

By the way, compare the 4 main roads going into Brest on this map with Red's map and it checks, but raises other questions as he seems selective on which main roads he shows compared to Reds map (maybe he just showed the ones that seemed relevant to for the operations, food for thought).



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 3/6/2021 10:22:16 AM >

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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 7:29:41 AM   
loki100


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another good source of maps is the University of Texas' series:

http://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/eastern_europe/

(actually the whole web site is wonderful if you like maps )

The maps are based on a mix of a 1939 Soviet mapping series and some produced to the same scale by the Germans during the war. Some of them have all sorts of interesting notes that show the impact of previous fighting

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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 10:30:13 AM   
Light4bettor

 

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Fantastisch Loki,

This great! Thanks.

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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 10:39:26 AM   
Blagrot

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson

What is the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine?


Need the difference in centimetres please, I work in Metric!

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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 2:45:05 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson

What is the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine?


On a road it makes little difference if it’s not an all weather or hard surface road.

Hard Surface roads length in 1940, 143,400 klm.
unsurfaced roads road length in 1940, 1,387,800 klm.These turn to mud in rain weather, there effects on transport ton miles are noted in the QM Manual, which was authorised by Wagner for all Axis forces to use.

Soil quality in Russia was indeed an important issue, it was why SU ran hugue freight weights at low speed as opposed to German in the Reich moving 3 times as fast but at a lower tonnage, Germany had a quarter of the manpower involved in railway conversion and repair.



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RE: Road movement - 3/6/2021 2:52:16 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

I spent many hours reviewing contemporary maps with a good dose of what seemed right. It all boils down to a MP value in a hex set by weather and terrain.

I'll make the following observation - WitE2 is a game and we have tried to make things as historically sympathetic as the code allows. It uses 10 mile hexes and week long turns. I'm now waiting for someone to ask what the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud is in inches and did we consider the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine? When they do I'm sure the intent is to show they know more than we do.

Asking question is the accepted learning method.
Did you compare with actual klm of surfaced and unsurfaced roads in Russia?, as in Hunter, The soviet transportation experience. That with the manuals gives you exact historical data to work from, most of Russia was poor roads, 143k was average or better.


10 miles is a mp cost of 1, how many gallons a vechicle in the Division is that In 2, how does that hex being an autobhan road change the cost, how does that hex bring a dirt road in wet conditions change it, in WiTE it’s 1 mps cost is nothing close to norms for cross country.

In WiTE 1 a major reason for SU problems with supply and achieving historic advance rates was because all trucks are the same freight, while in history the SU average carry weight rose to over 3, and Guards etc were getting the lions share of the heavier ones for their ops, this cannot occur in 1 due to normalisation of all trucks to the same capacity for the whole war, LL trucks and Locomotives do not have the logistical impact they did.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/6/2021 3:23:39 PM >


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RE: Road movement - 3/7/2021 10:48:52 AM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Did you compare with actual klm of surfaced and unsurfaced roads in Russia?, as in Hunter, The soviet transportation experience. That with the manuals gives you exact historical data to work from, most of Russia was poor roads, 143k was average or better.

10 miles is a mp cost of 1, how many gallons a vechicle in the Division is that In 2, how does that hex being an autobhan road change the cost, how does that hex bring a dirt road in wet conditions change it, in WiTE it’s 1 mps cost is nothing close to norms for cross country.



No, because that data is largely irrelevant within the game's abstraction of terrain and roads. Quoting facts and figures is all well and good, but trying to link those to the game isn't. If you had any clear understanding of the WitE2 game mechanics you would appreciate the non sequitur logic between the data you quote and what the game does. The discussion in another thread on Sdkfz 251s is a perfect example. Having total production numbers and comparing them to the game is only valuable if every variant is in the game. They are not. Using WitE1 as your start is also pretty pointless. I'm struggling to think of any major code process or art that has not been redone since the code split that led to WitE2; and that was before Morvael re-wrote large elements of the WitE1 code.

So for roads having the length by type is of little use because:

- Each hex is assigned a generic road value and there are only three choices: good, average and poor. (In WitW this was done by country and not hex). Note the terms are broad adjectives and not descriptors of specific road type or surface.
- The choice was qualitative based on good judgement and a balance of the number of roads, their type, map location and the hex terrain.
- It absolutely wasn't done by a quantitative assessment of road length - not least because total length of roads and quality (type/surface) per hex is so different.
- The intent was to better define available manoeuvre corridors to add an additional dimension to movement particularly in dense terrain and inclement weather.
- The screenshot should answer your MP questions - note the yellow text - these costs are editable by anyone who chooses.




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RE: Road movement - 3/7/2021 12:16:14 PM   
sillyflower


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Thanks John - a very clear explanation and all seems very well thought-out.
The only query I have is that I can't see any of the numbers being in yellow. Is that WAD, an error or due to my elderly eyesight?



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RE: Road movement - 3/7/2021 12:41:53 PM   
RedLancer


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David

It is a very pale yellow ... all the numbers in the screenshot are editable. Ought to highlight it is a created picture from two different editor screens.

P.S. You do still have access to the Dev Forum from your alpha days. PM me if you need reminding of the link.

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RE: Road movement - 3/7/2021 12:59:35 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Did you compare with actual klm of surfaced and unsurfaced roads in Russia?, as in Hunter, The soviet transportation experience. That with the manuals gives you exact historical data to work from, most of Russia was poor roads, 143k was average or better.

10 miles is a mp cost of 1, how many gallons a vechicle in the Division is that In 2, how does that hex being an autobhan road change the cost, how does that hex bring a dirt road in wet conditions change it, in WiTE it’s 1 mps cost is nothing close to norms for cross country.



No, because that data is largely irrelevant within the game's abstraction of terrain and roads. Quoting facts and figures is all well and good, but trying to link those to the game isn't. If you had any clear understanding of the WitE2 game mechanics you would appreciate the non sequitur logic between the data you quote and what the game does. The discussion in another thread on Sdkfz 251s is a perfect example. Having total production numbers and comparing them to the game is only valuable if every variant is in the game. They are not. Using WitE1 as your start is also pretty pointless. I'm struggling to think of any major code process or art that has not been redone since the code split that led to WitE2; and that was before Morvael re-wrote large elements of the WitE1 code.

So for roads having the length by type is of little use because:

- Each hex is assigned a generic road value and there are only three choices: good, average and poor. (In WitW this was done by country and not hex). Note the terms are broad adjectives and not descriptors of specific road type or surface.
- The choice was qualitative based on good judgement and a balance of the number of roads, their type, map location and the hex terrain.
- It absolutely wasn't done by a quantitative assessment of road length - not least because total length of roads and quality (type/surface) per hex is so different.
- The intent was to better define available manoeuvre corridors to add an additional dimension to movement particularly in dense terrain and inclement weather.
- The screenshot should answer your MP questions - note the yellow text - these costs are editable by anyone who chooses.





Thank you heighlighting the game is not using historical miles of roads, or quality of roads on Russia, as defined by the Germans at the time, or the Field manuals effects of move to rates on those roads. My logical mistake was in thinking the game would.

Game abstraction is number of hexes classed as roads of three qualities, a hex to count as road must have enough road in miles must be enough for a motorised formation to use as roads,so a Mot Div requires 25 miles of road space, when sat still, a urban hex must have 30 min miles of road to go from mid point to any adjacent hex in a straight line to get a Mot move,bonus from road movement. The number of urban hex in game at min miles of road leaves the miles of average or better, each hex that connects to another is 10 miles, if it connects to more hex sides the min number of miles increases. tithe use of this is to compare your mid War German map of roads, after the Reich has spent million of man hours making roads where they did not exists, to SU maps and miles of surfaces roads that did., of course having one map for the whole game misses the logical point that both sides expended vast resources changing the road infrastructure it to suit their military requirments, yet this is not modelled any more than average freight weight of a truck was different by year for each side. Yearly modifiers to truck freight is with not exactly hard to include.

In the same way, validity checking of the model, knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.

Comparing to WITE1 is so that I can judge if to purchase early or later, by knowing how much improved it is, I used the example of how many gallons a vechicle uses per 10 miles in 1, to get an idea of if 2 has improved it or not, having realistic fuel consumption or not is important.

Thanks for the screen shot, most helpful.





< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/7/2021 2:26:09 PM >


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RE: Road movement - 3/7/2021 2:30:53 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

...

In the same way, validity checking of the model, knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.

Comparing to WITE1 is so that I can judge if to purchase early or later, by knowing how much improved it is, I used the example of how many gallons a vechicle uses per 10 miles in 1, to get an idea of if 2 has improved it or not, having realistic fuel consumption or not is important.

...




As in your earlier thread, you are making some huge assumptions as to how the game handles the inputs you think are important. If you don't understand how that data is captured within the game engine then its quite a leap of interpretation as a test of whether WiTE2 handles these factors more realistically than WiTE1.

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RE: Road movement - 3/7/2021 3:49:03 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

...

In the same way, validity checking of the model, knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.

Comparing to WITE1 is so that I can judge if to purchase early or later, by knowing how much improved it is, I used the example of how many gallons a vechicle uses per 10 miles in 1, to get an idea of if 2 has improved it or not, having realistic fuel consumption or not is important.

...




As in your earlier thread, you are making some huge assumptions as to how the game handles the inputs you think are important. If you don't understand how that data is captured within the game engine then its quite a leap of interpretation as a test of whether WiTE2 handles these factors more realistically than WiTE1.


The advantage of being numerate is you don’t have to assume, as in the other thread, your the only one making asumptions.


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RE: Road movement - 3/7/2021 4:05:49 PM   
RedLancer


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Let me go further than Roger as this is becoming tiresome. I've never read so much supposition portrayed as fact in order to portray some sense of superiority in all my life. For those reading this post Hanny has no more knowledge of WitE2 at this point in time than what has been posted publicly so it's numeracy based on assumption.

We have never ever claimed WitE2 is perfectly accurate. We do however claim it is as faithful to history whilst still playable as we can make it within the code, resource and time available.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Thank you heighlighting the game is not using historical miles of roads, or quality of roads on Russia, as defined by the Germans at the time, or the Field manuals effects of move to rates on those roads.


As I explained it was qualitative based on good judgement and a balance of the number of roads, their type, map location and the hex terrain. Mileage and quality is a factor within that judgement. You may have spotted that the game map is just a tad more than just Russia and those hexes had to be given a rating too. The game has over 130,000 hexes although doing the water hexes was easier. I did struggle with Yugoslavia despite having served there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Game abstraction is number of hexes classed as roads of three qualities, a hex to count as road must have enough road in miles must be enough for a motorised formation to use as roads,so a Mot Div requires 25 miles of road space, when sat still, a urban hex must have 30 min miles of road to go from mid point to any adjacent hex in a straight line to get a Mot move,bonus from road movement. The number of urban hex in game at min miles of road leaves the miles of average or better, each hex that connects to another is 10 miles, if it connects to more hex sides the min number of miles increases.


The in-your-head game and certainly not in WitE2. As I wrote quite clearly each hex is assigned a generic road value. This does not have any direct link to mileage. Don't forget WitE2 uses MPs as currency that are an imprecise amalgam of time and distance. Road value is a related amalgam of MP cost varied by terrain and weather. Where in your available sources is combat delay defined and its impact on the rate of movement? You'll notice that we don't define MPs by time or speed and for good reason. Whilst it is clear you have encyclopaedic knowledge of the available historical sources I'm not sure that you have ever planned, executed or commanded the movement of a military formation. For the record I have on all three counts and more than once: including significant experience with armour. If only it was just calculations based on what is written down years later...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
tithe use of this is to compare your mid War German map of roads, after the Reich has spent million of man hours making roads where they did not exists, to SU maps and miles of surfaces roads that did., of course having one map for the whole game misses the logical point that both sides expended vast resources changing the road infrastructure it to suit their military requirments, yet this is not modelled any more than average freight weight of a truck was different by year for each side. Yearly modifiers to truck freight is with not exactly hard to include.


The same is true for the rail network and nothing has been portrayed otherwise. I refer you to my first paragraph above. What is your point?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Yearly modifiers to truck freight is with not exactly hard to include.


...informed by your practical experience of which complex wargames' design?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
...knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.


...how do you know how many Sdkz [sic] chassis are produced in game? As for your proposed road calculations being used to show you know better, well that is just laughable, because I have clearly explained the qualitative nature of assigning a road value to hexes and the imprecise lack of a key would make any of your results highly subjective at best.

If you were more interested in the game than yourself you'd have been one of those many people who have personally e-mailed me over the last few years asking to help out. You weren't.


< Message edited by RedLancer -- 3/8/2021 9:52:25 AM >


_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 25
RE: Road movement - 3/7/2021 4:49:59 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10692
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

...

In the same way, validity checking of the model, knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.

Comparing to WITE1 is so that I can judge if to purchase early or later, by knowing how much improved it is, I used the example of how many gallons a vechicle uses per 10 miles in 1, to get an idea of if 2 has improved it or not, having realistic fuel consumption or not is important.

...




As in your earlier thread, you are making some huge assumptions as to how the game handles the inputs you think are important. If you don't understand how that data is captured within the game engine then its quite a leap of interpretation as a test of whether WiTE2 handles these factors more realistically than WiTE1.


The advantage of being numerate is you don’t have to assume, as in the other thread, your the only one making asumptions.



thats true, which is handy as my first degree is in econometrics, my masters is in decision science and my PhD an application of Bayesian statistics and cluster analysis to organisational decision making, so if you don't mind, I think I am reasonably numerate ...

So perhaps best to stop this line of posting?

Equally I think this thread is going sufficiently off track (bad pun I realise) that its best locked at this point

< Message edited by loki100 -- 3/7/2021 4:55:40 PM >


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(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 26
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