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Bug consisting in killing two retreating units after combat, which shouldn't be

 
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Bug consisting in killing two retreating units after co... - 2/26/2021 8:21:48 PM   
Joseignacio


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In our game, GE attacked the stack shown in Belgium. They got an R so my units had to retreat, my opponent selected the militia and the div to Lille, where there was previously an inf corps. Then there was only the Mech and I am 100% sure that it can and needs to go to the 5(2)3 HQ, but after looking like it retreated it and piled it on the HQ, the Mech dissapeared and it finally went to the Destroyed Poool, which is wrong. The div was destroyed as well, which is more obviously wrong cause it had stacking space in Lille.





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< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/28/2021 11:23:42 AM >
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RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/26/2021 8:53:13 PM   
Joseignacio


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The unit was destroyed




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(in reply to Joseignacio)
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RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/26/2021 9:06:08 PM   
Joseignacio


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.




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< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/26/2021 9:07:32 PM >

(in reply to Joseignacio)
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RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/26/2021 9:24:03 PM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
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File in the Land Combat declaration (sorry if we couldnt try to treproduce it again but it was at the end of our usual schedule and my opponent had to leave).

If you try to , the final result must have been 17 or 18 (no losses, retreat, half attackers disorganized).
RAW

quote:

Retreats
If the result includes an ‘R’, the attacker retreats all surviving defending
land units 1 hex (even if face-down).
You retreat units individually and you can retreat them into different
hexes.
You can’t retreat a unit into a hex it couldn’t move into.
If a unit could retreat into several hexes, you must retreat it according to
these priorities:
1. a hex not in an enemy ZOC and not causing over-stacking.
2. a hex not in enemy ZOC and causing over-stacking.
3. a hex in an enemy ZOC containing a friendly land unit and not
causing over stacking.

4. a hex in enemy ZOC containing a friendly land unit and causing
over stacking.

Destroy a unit if it can’t retreat under any of these priorities.
If the unit ends in a hex which is still to be attacked, or where it is
overstacked, continue retreating the unit according to the same priorities
(or destroy it if this is not possible).


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/26/2021 10:05:32 PM >

(in reply to Joseignacio)
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RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/27/2021 12:29:37 AM   
davidc


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You went over the foreign troop commitment

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RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/27/2021 11:42:25 AM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
I believed that rule didn't apply when you are forced to retreat into a country inwhich you had not enough FTC, but anyway it should have let me decide which units I destroyed, and I would have preserved the Mech.

From RAC:

quote:

Example: Two Commonwealth land units are retreated into France by
the German player (even though there was a free hex in Belgium that the
German player could have retreated them to). Unfortunately for the
Commonwealth, Gort and one Commonwealth fighter are already in
France. As Gort only has a reorganisation value of 2, at the end of the
Retreat step the Commonwealth player must destroy 1 of the retreating
land units.


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/27/2021 2:26:17 PM >

(in reply to davidc)
Post #: 6
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/27/2021 4:42:30 PM   
Centuur


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The Axis player in this case retreats all Allied units into France. The Allied player than decides which of those three units have to be destroyed.

According to your description, I believed you found a bug. Can you post a gamesave here?

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Peter

(in reply to Joseignacio)
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RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/27/2021 5:09:48 PM   
Orm


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Fascinating. The example you have given from the rules contradicts the clarification in the rules. In fact, the retreat example above violates not only the FTC rule, but the retreat rule as well.

The retreat rule say that you can not retreat a unit into a hex you can not move into. And the FTC rule states that it restricts a unit from entering. The clarification explicitly states that you can not retreat into a hex that violates the FTC rule.

It seems to me that the example is obsolete and no longer relevant. And that the German player selects the order in which the unit are to be retreated. Hence the MECH can be retreated last, and thus destroyed.



Cut from RAC: 11.16.5 Resolving attacks
....
If the result includes an ‘R’, the attacker retreats all surviving defending land units 1 hex (even if
disorganized). You retreat units individually and you can retreat them into different hexes. You can’t retreat a unit
into a hex it couldn’t move into.



Cut from RAC: 18.2 Not co-operating
....
[Clarification. Foreign Troop Commitments (FTC) restrict a unit from entering a country. Once in, it’s ok for the
unit to remain,
even if the HQ moves out. Note that if you cannot enter a hex because of FTC, then you cannot
retreat into it either.
However, if an HQ and another land unit are to retreat, and the only retreat path is such that
the other land unit would be destroyed if retreated first (due to FTC), but it would survive if the HQ were retreated
first, then the HQ must be retreated first. This is because “units must be retreated if possible” - Dec. 29, 2007. The
USSR needs to abide by Foreign Troop Commitment requirements to enter Japanese controlled hexes in China,
unless China has been conquered - May 12, 2008.]

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(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 8
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/27/2021 5:12:17 PM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

The Axis player in this case retreats all Allied units into France. The Allied player than decides which of those three units have to be destroyed.

According to your description, I believed you found a bug. Can you post a gamesave here?

I believe this is faulty. Axis retreats the units one at a time. Once the maximum units allowed into France is reached no more units may be allowed to retreat into France. If no other retreat hex exists then the unit is destroyed. If the rule is like this then in effect it is the German player who should decide which unit is destroyed.

Edit: All in my humble opinion, of course.

< Message edited by Orm -- 2/27/2021 5:14:06 PM >


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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 9
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/27/2021 6:13:00 PM   
Centuur


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RAW:

Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home
country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is
destroyed unless:
• it started the step there; or
• it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign
troop commitment limit.


That's the rules. The clarification is not RAW. It should be the CW which has to decide which unit he needs to destroy, and not the Axis.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 10
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/27/2021 7:34:25 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2288
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From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

The Axis player in this case retreats all Allied units into France. The Allied player than decides which of those three units have to be destroyed.

According to your description, I believed you found a bug. Can you post a gamesave here?


You have it attached to the fourth post

Note: We held another session today and it reproduced just the same.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/27/2021 7:38:18 PM >

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 11
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/28/2021 11:45:22 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2288
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Fascinating. The example you have given from the rules contradicts the clarification in the rules. In fact, the retreat example above violates not only the FTC rule, but the retreat rule as well.

The retreat rule say that you can not retreat a unit into a hex you can not move into. And the FTC rule states that it restricts a unit from entering. The clarification explicitly states that you can not retreat into a hex that violates the FTC rule.

It seems to me that the example is obsolete and no longer relevant. And that the German player selects the order in which the unit are to be retreated. Hence the MECH can be retreated last, and thus destroyed.



Cut from RAC: 11.16.5 Resolving attacks
....
If the result includes an ‘R’, the attacker retreats all surviving defending land units 1 hex (even if
disorganized). You retreat units individually and you can retreat them into different hexes. You can’t retreat a unit
into a hex it couldn’t move into.



Cut from RAC: 18.2 Not co-operating
....
[Clarification. Foreign Troop Commitments (FTC) restrict a unit from entering a country. Once in, it’s ok for the
unit to remain,
even if the HQ moves out. Note that if you cannot enter a hex because of FTC, then you cannot
retreat into it either.
However, if an HQ and another land unit are to retreat, and the only retreat path is such that
the other land unit would be destroyed if retreated first (due to FTC), but it would survive if the HQ were retreated
first, then the HQ must be retreated first. This is because “units must be retreated if possible” - Dec. 29, 2007. The
USSR needs to abide by Foreign Troop Commitment requirements to enter Japanese controlled hexes in China,
unless China has been conquered - May 12, 2008.]


I believe you can move it, though later you may have to kill some of them because of overstacking, when the end of the phase arrives.

What the “units must be retreated if possible” part refers to, IMO, is to the order they must retreat into, or not be able to do it if they do not fulfill the conditions:

quote:

etreats
If the result includes an ‘R’, the attacker retreats all surviving defending
land units 1 hex (even if face-down).
You retreat units individually and you can retreat them into different
hexes.
You can’t retreat a unit into a hex it couldn’t move into.
If a unit could retreat into several hexes, you must retreat it according to
these priorities:
1. a hex not in an enemy ZOC and not causing over-stacking.
2. a hex not in enemy ZOC and causing over-stacking.
3. a hex in an enemy ZOC containing a friendly land unit and not
causing over stacking.
4. a hex in enemy ZOC containing a friendly land unit and causing
over stacking.
Destroy a unit if it can’t retreat under any of these priorities.

If the unit ends in a hex which is still to be attacked, or where it is
overstacked, continue retreating the unit according to the same priorities
(or destroy it if this is not possible)


My first corps and the div fitted in Lille per 3. the last corps as well as per 4 and be overstacked.

Then this last corps needs to move on if there is possibility to according to "If the unit ends in a hex which is still to be attacked, or where it is overstacked, continue retreating the unit according to the same priorities", so it would go to the coast hex with the HQ as per 3 again.

If this was not possibe because there was no hex fulfilling any of the 4 rules further than Lille, they would be overstacked in Lille and then some die, following ----> "(or destroy it if this is not possible)".

Centuur: RAW7 was used to create MWIF, but being MWIF created after or around 2008 I believe that they applied the Clarifications, which is Clarifications partly and partly a hidden Errata of those rules. Am I right in that the Clarifications are into it?

Clarifications sometimes twist the rule 180º so that is important. If Harry Rowland and later Patrice Forno were advising in the start of the process, they should.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/28/2021 11:54:31 AM >

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 12
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/28/2021 12:06:56 PM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
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The clarifications in RAC are mostly based on the FAQ (attached). A few of them, I think, are based with communications with Harry.

Attachment (1)

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 13
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/28/2021 12:10:09 PM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

RAW:

Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home
country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is
destroyed unless:
• it started the step there; or
• it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign
troop commitment limit.


That's the rules. The clarification is not RAW. It should be the CW which has to decide which unit he needs to destroy, and not the Axis.

Yes. But that is not the relevant rule. And it is not RAW that are the rules for MWIF. It is RAC. Here is the relevant rule. And it should be in RAW as well. And as you can see the rule specifically forbids the unit from entering...


Cut from RAC:
11.11.5 Active major powers
You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any hex controlled by:
• that major power and its aligned minors; or
• another active major power on the same side (or its controlled minor countries); or
• a major power or minor country it is at war with.
There are some exceptions:
• units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the
foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2);
and
• minor country units can’t enter a hex controlled by another minor country aligned with their side unless they
satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules.
• units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 14
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/28/2021 12:11:38 PM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
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That's the document I was referring to. In my group we call it Clarifications, not FAQ, but that's the same one, as shown in it's title (inside):

"WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary"

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/28/2021 12:12:10 PM >

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 15
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/28/2021 12:17:48 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2288
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

RAW:

Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home
country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is
destroyed unless:
• it started the step there; or
• it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign
troop commitment limit.


That's the rules. The clarification is not RAW. It should be the CW which has to decide which unit he needs to destroy, and not the Axis.

Yes. But that is not the relevant rule. And it is not RAW that are the rules for MWIF. It is RAC. Here is the relevant rule. And it should be in RAW as well. And as you can see the rule specifically forbids the unit from entering...


Cut from RAC:
11.11.5 Active major powers
You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any hex controlled by:
• that major power and its aligned minors; or
• another active major power on the same side (or its controlled minor countries); or
• a major power or minor country it is at war with.
There are some exceptions:
• units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the
foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2);
and
• minor country units can’t enter a hex controlled by another minor country aligned with their side unless they
satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules.
• units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.

quote:



Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home
country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is
destroyed unless:


I understand that RAC is RAW except where there have been the (noted) deviations, in fact most of it is worded exactly the same (except where Steven wanted to be more didactic).

HEre is the text form RAW, as you can see it's the same:

quote:

11.11.5 Active major powers
You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any
hex controlled by:
 that major power and its aligned minors; or
 another active major power on the same side (or its controlled minor countries); or
 a major power or minor country it is at war with.
There are some exceptions:
units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2); and
 minor country units can’t enter a hex controlled by another minor commitment rules.
 units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner


I see your point, and of course WIF has several (or even many) of those inconsistencies that make us quarrel in the board games tables, hence the so called clarifications or FAQ, which try to mend or correct those problems (normal in a game developed and distilled through so many years and such detailed rules).

However, that very ruling directs you to 18.2 and there it tells you how to do it, at the end of the step, so they can get in but some of them are killed after they got in. Harry didn't select well the wording of 11.11.5:

quote:

18.2
(...)
Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
 it started the step there; or
 it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.
A minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of an aligned minor country on the same side is destroyed unless:
 it started the step there; or
 it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/28/2021 12:30:38 PM >

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 16
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/28/2021 12:40:29 PM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
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Yes. There seems to be a contradiction. Hence it is included in the FAQ where it is clearly answered that the retreating units may not enter if they violate the HQ rule. Therefore they are destroyed during the retreat by the retreating partner. In this instance Germany does the retreating, and thus the destroying. The MECH is toast.

< Message edited by Orm -- 2/28/2021 12:41:06 PM >


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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 17
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/28/2021 1:35:26 PM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
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Friggin' Harry, I hope this is solved in WIF CE

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 18
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 2/28/2021 9:01:04 PM   
Courtenay


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However, there are times when units are allowed into a non-cooperating friendly major power, and are not immediately destroyed, with the understanding that they will leave before the end of a step. I refer to air units preforming a mission. No one blinks an eye when the whole RAF ground supports a CW stack defending in Calais, but if one interpreted the rule the way the retreat rule is interpreted, this wouldn't be legal.

There is a muddle here. I firmly believe that Harry made a mistake here with the retreat ruling, but that is what the official ruling is, so it can't be argued with.

It can, though, be grumbled at.

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 19
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 3/1/2021 5:04:28 PM   
paulderynck


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From: Canada
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There is an element of "papal infallibility" when the ruling comes from the game's designer.

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Paul

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 20
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 3/1/2021 7:19:09 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2288
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

There is an element of "papal infallibility" when the ruling comes from the game's designer.


Yes, the problem comes when the game's designer says something is red and later explains why (in some cases, for example) it's green. Too much of it instead or rewriting the obvious contradictions of the same designer instead.

Cannot count how many arguments I have had about the game apparent or real contradictions.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 3/1/2021 7:20:06 PM >

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 21
RE: Bug killing a retreating unit after combat which sh... - 3/1/2021 9:10:42 PM   
paulderynck


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It's been green for ages and unchanged from RAW7 in CE.

The trickiest part of FTC is the age-old example of a CW Div sailing into Hong Kong on a surprise impulse, overrunning the JP fleet in Canton and then moving back to Hong Kong. Many said that was a legal move just like flying CW planes in and out of (and even through) France, or railing a Hungarian unit to Russia via a railway line in Romania. Deemed legal because the unit "did not end the step there". But no, in both the RAW7 FAQ and CE, the designer says that move is in violation of FTC!

The wording is in the land movement rules as an exception: "units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules", whereas end of step wording applies to air missions and rail movement (and retreat after combat!)





< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/1/2021 9:25:05 PM >


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(in reply to Joseignacio)
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