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RE: Join the first official tournament - 5/29/2021 8:41:02 AM   
Niedowidek_slith

 

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Joined: 11/11/2013
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Hubert,

I agree that resign option is problematic.

There are options used in other games. For example you may give limited time for every move. In this tournament it seems that making one move every day was optimal and allowed to end a scenario (in 42 days that we have for every round each player can make 42 turns). So you can give everyone 24 hour limit for a move (like in an online chess games).

Of course there will situation when someone is sick or busy at work and cannot make a move in 24 hours. If we don't want to penalize such real life obstacles, we may give extra time to every player. If a player reached 24 hour limit and didn't make a move, he/she starts spending his/her extra time. In such situation everyone may be a bit late from time to time and not get penalized for this (as long as he/she still has extra time reserve). Extra time reserve shouldn't be too long e.g. 72 hours seems enough. This is how matches in "Through the Ages" work for example.

If we don't want automatic loss for a player who spent his/her extra time, we may start penalizing after reserve is spent. E.g. player didn't make a move in 24 hours, extra time reserve clock started ticking, 72 hours later he/she still didn't make a move, then we start deducting one point from his/her score for every hour he/she doesn't move. It would give 0 points to every player who is stalling their games.

Time reserve solution is also good because if someone stalled once for 4 days (24 hours of normal time limit + 72 hours of extra time), he/she can't repeat it - extra time was spent already and doesn't regenerate. Next time this player cannot stall at all as penalization starts right after 24 hours limit was reached.

Niedowidek (also called Neido https://ninjago.fandom.com/wiki/Neido )







quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hey everyone, very sorry to hear that some players were gaming the system here. We'll have a good think on how to prevent this in the future.

For the one game with an 80:20 split, this just sounds like the full DECISIVE victory conditions were not met as the points are set by the VICTORY CONDITIONS once the campaign has been played along far enough.

Players that play too slowly should be penalized with a reduced score for timing out, you'll see this in the scores with I believe a small T shown along side.

For resignations, this is potentially a bit problematic which is why they are not allowed by the tournament server.

For example:
1) If you resign, do you possibly deny your opponent a haul of points which would otherwise have been theirs?
2) Alternatively, if you resign and are heavily penalized for doing so, is it fair that the ‘winner’ gets a large haul of points worth more than a hard fought victory would have brought?

You either deny points to your opponent which isn't fair, or if you heavily penalize, then there is no longer any incentive to resign. This is why with mirrored games, both players are encouraged to play to the end as how you win and how you lose should reflect in the score.

But with players gaming the system this potentially introduces a new layered issue to all of the above which we'll address for the next time around.




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(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 61
RE: Join the first official tournament - 5/31/2021 1:36:36 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

Posts: 4949
Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Niedowidek_slith

Hubert,

I agree that resign option is problematic.

There are options used in other games. For example you may give limited time for every move. In this tournament it seems that making one move every day was optimal and allowed to end a scenario (in 42 days that we have for every round each player can make 42 turns). So you can give everyone 24 hour limit for a move (like in an online chess games).

Of course there will situation when someone is sick or busy at work and cannot make a move in 24 hours. If we don't want to penalize such real life obstacles, we may give extra time to every player. If a player reached 24 hour limit and didn't make a move, he/she starts spending his/her extra time. In such situation everyone may be a bit late from time to time and not get penalized for this (as long as he/she still has extra time reserve). Extra time reserve shouldn't be too long e.g. 72 hours seems enough. This is how matches in "Through the Ages" work for example.

If we don't want automatic loss for a player who spent his/her extra time, we may start penalizing after reserve is spent. E.g. player didn't make a move in 24 hours, extra time reserve clock started ticking, 72 hours later he/she still didn't make a move, then we start deducting one point from his/her score for every hour he/she doesn't move. It would give 0 points to every player who is stalling their games.

Time reserve solution is also good because if someone stalled once for 4 days (24 hours of normal time limit + 72 hours of extra time), he/she can't repeat it - extra time was spent already and doesn't regenerate. Next time this player cannot stall at all as penalization starts right after 24 hours limit was reached.

Niedowidek (also called Neido https://ninjago.fandom.com/wiki/Neido )



These are good ideas, however the catch here is that I don't have direct control over the server and simply have to work with the server as is. Some of these changes or adjustments might make their way to the server implementation one day but there is no guarantee of that right now.


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(in reply to Niedowidek_slith)
Post #: 62
RE: Join the first official tournament - 5/31/2021 1:38:37 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

Posts: 4949
Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: shri

This is from the first round, March on Paris.
The game i refer to the Entente was winning undisputably (me as entente) and the Germans were down to like 1 town on the far end of the map and maybe 1 or at most 2 detachments (0 divisions, HQs, cavalry).
Neido has also confirmed my version here.

Oh, BTW KOLN fell like 3-4 turns before it ended, the last great battle. after that i was just pushing cavalry to capture empty towns.



Thanks and if I remember correctly, the issue here was that this particular campaign did not have a DECISIVE victory condition in place which would explain the result you saw in your tournament match.

We've since fixed this for the next time around.


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Post #: 63
RE: Join the first official tournament - 6/19/2021 8:48:26 AM   
Fafnir

 

Posts: 156
Joined: 11/20/2016
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In the last tournament game ( Call to Arms scenario) now Germany, Austria and the Ottomans surrendered but the game still continues.
Should we now wait until the tournament ends or will this give a malus for not sending turns?

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 64
RE: Join the first official tournament - 6/19/2021 10:03:53 AM   
Niedowidek_slith

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 11/11/2013
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I've got the same situation in non-tournament game few versions ago :)

(in reply to Fafnir)
Post #: 65
RE: Join the first official tournament - 6/20/2021 6:41:55 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Thanks for mentioning this, I've checked the scripts, and the issue is with DE 36 that checks for Germany having surrendered, so I'll get it fixed for a future patch.

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(in reply to Niedowidek_slith)
Post #: 66
RE: Join the first official tournament - 6/21/2021 9:50:26 AM   
shri

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 7/20/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

ORIGINAL: shri

This is from the first round, March on Paris.
The game i refer to the Entente was winning undisputably (me as entente) and the Germans were down to like 1 town on the far end of the map and maybe 1 or at most 2 detachments (0 divisions, HQs, cavalry).
Neido has also confirmed my version here.

Oh, BTW KOLN fell like 3-4 turns before it ended, the last great battle. after that i was just pushing cavalry to capture empty towns.



Thanks and if I remember correctly, the issue here was that this particular campaign did not have a DECISIVE victory condition in place which would explain the result you saw in your tournament match.

We've since fixed this for the next time around.




Ok, thanks.

Also, i agree with Neido that a resign or some sort of resign should be there.

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 67
RE: Join the first official tournament - 6/29/2021 4:03:13 AM   
shri

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 7/20/2017
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Mods, need some help.

So, by Autumn 1916 in both my games i have had a clear upper hand, which means in late 1917 i would have won the game. Unfortunately my opponent is going away on a holiday in 2 days, but he is a very honourable man, he told me on the chat that he didn't want to cheat me out of a win, but he is unable to resign. So he retreated his armies and let me take a lot of cities.

Result is in his game as Entente, France is down to 1% NM but still not surrendered and in his game as CP, Ottos are down to 1% but still not surrendered.

Now, we have to end this game tomorrow anyhow, max we get 1 or two turns, any help?

(in reply to shri)
Post #: 68
RE: Join the first official tournament - 6/29/2021 1:29:20 PM   
shri

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 7/20/2017
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Ok mods you really have to help me.

Me and my opponent played a lot of turns today, ended with CP (me) Decisive victory finally. (It was just him retreating and me advancing without much combat)

Anyway, in my game as Entente, Bulgaria surrendered long ago, Ottos are out, Austria is out, this turn Germany is out, yet the game continues. Something is seriously wrong.

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Post #: 69
RE: Join the first official tournament - 6/29/2021 2:10:54 PM   
Fafnir

 

Posts: 156
Joined: 11/20/2016
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Same here. We played until the game ends in nov. 1918 with the result 'stalemate' even all CP was out since 1916. This was giving less victory points then before the game was ended.

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Post #: 70
RE: Join the first official tournament - 6/30/2021 2:43:06 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Joined: 7/22/2013
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Thanks for the reports gentlemen and we will look into this. Apologies for possibly a less than ideal finish and experience here for the first tournament, we'll take a closer look and fix and improve things for the next time around.

That being said, thank you to everyone for participating and congratulations to our top players

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Post #: 71
RE: Join the first official tournament - 7/2/2021 5:41:58 AM   
shri

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 7/20/2017
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Sorry to complain some more, Now i see my CP game has been updated and i have 80 despite a Major victory and my opponent 20 (i guess his fairplay should be rewarded).

Anyway, my other game, both had 0 points, i have won it despite the engine not acknowledging it, there are no enemies left on the board.

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 72
RE: Join the first official tournament - 7/2/2021 6:54:30 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Joined: 7/22/2013
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Hi Shri,

For the one game, a Major Victory would indeed be 80 points, only a Decisive Victory would show 100 points, but for this one particular campaign there are no Decisive Victory conditions, so the 80/20 score would be correct.

For the second game, I can confirm there was a problem in that the Victory conditions did not fire for this game thus resulting in the 0/0 score.

I'll put in a request to have your score updated here to properly reflect that you would have scored 80/20 for both games. Can't promise when this might show on the tournament page, but hopefully soon.

Hubert





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Post #: 73
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