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How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base game? - 2/22/2021 10:00:57 AM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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No one uses, nor invests in German Rockets. Is it time to give the Germans one Rocket unit to appear at some point? IF not, how about bumping up their tech level at beginning of the game or allowing them to do some damage?

I don't know the WW2 history of their effectiveness, but every time I watch some YouTube video, seems like they did some damage or the Allies were doing some mission to hose up their operation.

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/22/2021 11:13:58 AM   
Epekepe

 

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+1 for rockets more powerful. What to do with the railgun is also interesting question. It's pretty useless right now and nerfing range will make it totally no no for me.

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/22/2021 11:55:17 AM   
Platoonist


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Frankly, I think the game does a brilliant job of reflecting what a waste of resources the German rocket program was. If anything it even overstates their effectiveness.

Although technically brilliant, and of undoubted propaganda value to a beleaguered Nazi hierarchy, the V-2 weapon in particular inflicted comparatively little damage in return for the vast sums lavished on it. The total quantity of explosives delivered by the payloads of the 3,000 or so V-2s fired in the whole war was far less than could be dropped in a single raid by RAF Bomber Command, and the V-2s were one shot weapons unlike the bombers. It's estimated that 9,000 people were killed in V-2 attacks. Tragically a far greater number of slave workers died building these weapons. Like so many wonder-weapons, such as the Maus tank and the Me 163 Komet the wonder is in the publicity they garner.



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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/22/2021 12:21:27 PM   
Pocus


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Sure, but it makes for poor game balance Pushing the reasoning to the extreme, they can be removed from the game entirely with this logic, as no one build them (in competitive environment I mean)

For rockets, I would favor giving 2 in 44 by script, as a reward for the 0.1% players who did not resell the original rocket research chit!

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/22/2021 12:41:14 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Sure, but it makes for poor game balance Pushing the reasoning to the extreme, they can be removed from the game entirely with this logic, as no one build them (in competitive environment I mean)



If my worthy German opponent is blowing his hard won MMPs on rocket weapons, I do all I can to encourage him in his effort to make sure either America or the Soviet Union win the moon race someday.


< Message edited by Platoonist -- 2/22/2021 12:44:34 PM >


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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/22/2021 1:36:21 PM   
Christolos


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quote:

Although technically brilliant, and of undoubted propaganda value to a beleaguered Nazi hierarchy,...


Hi Platoonist,

I agree with your analysis, but what value would you say they also had in terms of terrorizing the UK population? Would it have been enough to factor in as having some sort of NM lowering effect that would be within the scope of what could applied/modeled in the game?

This, in the context of games going beyond 1945, coupled with tech improvements, could potentially make them useful to some extent in a protracted war, and therefore an interesting option to invest in, particularly if the war is going well for Germany such that the investment may be worthwhile.

What do you think?

Cheers,

C

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/22/2021 2:02:59 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Rockets, far as "National Morale", victory points, propaganda, etc. is yet another discussion. In 1940's, having an unmanned missile wasting civilians is a big on the population. On the flip side, the receiving end of Rockets, one could argue this would motivate the civilians to want to fight. It's fight or flight in war.

Everyone has a bias, or point of view. I lean in favor playability.

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/22/2021 3:18:44 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos

quote:

Although technically brilliant, and of undoubted propaganda value to a beleaguered Nazi hierarchy,...


Hi Platoonist,

I agree with your analysis, but what value would you say they also had in terms of terrorizing the UK population? Would it have been enough to factor in as having some sort of NM lowering effect that would be within the scope of what could applied/modeled in the game?

This, in the context of games going beyond 1945, coupled with tech improvements, could potentially make them useful to some extent in a protracted war, and therefore an interesting option to invest in, particularly if the war is going well for Germany such that the investment may be worthwhile






Were they more impactful on national morale than the thousands of Allied bombers that ranged the skies above Germany? And yet German civilian morale never quite cracked.

For me, the beauty of rocket weapons is that it's the of the few research categories that you can safely ignore as Germany. In a game where your MMPs are always stretched to the limit here is a no-brainer item you can skip until that happy day when you are awash in Reichmarks and have few areas left to invest them in.

Of course, by that point any potential targets might be out of the rocket's rather limited range.


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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/22/2021 3:48:18 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos

quote:

Although technically brilliant, and of undoubted propaganda value to a beleaguered Nazi hierarchy,...


Hi Platoonist,

I agree with your analysis, but what value would you say they also had in terms of terrorizing the UK population? Would it have been enough to factor in as having some sort of NM lowering effect that would be within the scope of what could applied/modeled in the game?

This, in the context of games going beyond 1945, coupled with tech improvements, could potentially make them useful to some extent in a protracted war, and therefore an interesting option to invest in, particularly if the war is going well for Germany such that the investment may be worthwhile






Were they more impactful on national morale than the thousands of Allied bombers that ranged the skies above Germany? And yet German civilian morale never quite cracked.

For me, the beauty of rocket weapons is that it's the of the few research categories that you can safely ignore as Germany. In a game where your MMPs are always stretched to the limit here is a no-brainer item you can skip until that happy day when you are awash in Reichmarks and have few areas left to invest them in.

Of course, by that point any potential targets might be out of the rocket's rather limited range.



Morale is debatable. Depends who you asked, when you asked, and what they were allowed to express.

The attack on Pearl Harbor railled a Nation. US Troops had overall lower combat morale, but rallied the fastest.

To keep on subject, civilians. Come on man. Your entire city is wasted, family dead, life in ruin, and morale is up? LOL, sure. Then again, does morale matter for civilians? It's not like they are in front lines. Maybe you go berserk, because you have no choice. (see Kamikazes) People are People. Just depends.

People are people, so why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully?
People are people, so why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully?
And now you're punching and you're kicking and you're shouting at me
I'm relying on your common decency
So far, it hasn't surfaced but I'm sure it exists
It just take a while to travel from your head to your fist
I can't understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/23/2021 3:24:23 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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How about if the rockets were to start at 1 level higher?

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/23/2021 4:02:41 PM   
eriador08

 

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When i knew, that i won a game, i liked to invest into rockets, if it was not too late. But i never got past level 3 and bombed London a few turns. But i was never able to see, what damage they really did. Should it be visible at strategic bombing statisitcs, what damage they did to my opponent? If i remember correct, it was never listed there.

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/23/2021 4:16:47 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

How about if the rockets were to start at 1 level higher?


Hi Bill,

I'm biased. I lean to playability. Playability, meaning, I want games that are 50/50 chance of winning, and players have the most options. Yes, giving the Germans an extra level of Rockets would tempt an Axis player to buy them. The Germans start with 1-chit of tech for Rockets. EVERYONE sells it.

I can provide you this information, seeing that I've played the most game (quantity wise) against humans. No one has ever bought Rockets. I did buy Rockets, in one game. It takes awhile to get their tech going. Obvious targets are London, Malta because of short range needed EARLY in the war.

As time progressed, the RAF/Royal was easily able to force German Rockets to leave the coastline. Only place to take, them is Russia, which is fine. Point them at Moscow/Lennigrad/Etc. Russians usually have pretty good supply except for Lennigrad. Thing is, against valid opponents, pressing Lennigrad doesn't win games. So yet not good bang for buck for Rockets in Russia.

About the only thing Rockets can do then, is to hide in France. WAIT, for Allies to land, and use to blast their ports and supply city. Thing is, won't have much of a chance against RAF/USAAF. The cost of the Rocket program will be expensive, so Germany won't have Mechanized Infantry pieces or some other better item, even Artillery.

Some of the historical speakers on the Forum, stated, Rockets were overrated in real WW2. Maybe they were. Just depends how you want the game.

So what to do? Asking me. I would give the Germans one Rocket unit, as an actual piece to enter the game, no charge. Could bump the tech up 1 also. Same could be said with Kamikazes :) I'd just give Japan some Kamikazes late in War.

Everyone has an opinion. The lower level player's don't win as Axis, that's actually quite historical. The Top players, and there's about 5 that are much higher skill level then the rest of us.

-EJR



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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/23/2021 4:37:26 PM   
Will952

 

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I agree, rockets fairly useless as it stands. A starting research of 1 would help, as would some free rockets (or maybe a 1944 DE to grant rockets at a discounted price)

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/23/2021 5:12:10 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

How about if the rockets were to start at 1 level higher?

Yeah, that sounds like a fine tweak for those who want to see these "exotic hi-tech" weapons in action more. Ballistic missiles will still be on the bottom of my priority list, but with the proposed change more players might be tempted to invest in them mid-game.

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/23/2021 6:29:38 PM   
EarlyDoors


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I dont play as Axis so can't comment but will :)

IRL the Axis put their faith in wunderweapons because of the promise they held out

so maybe...

top level rockets really could be a war winning weapon?

not sure of their properties but at top level maybe they could have greater range and punch

obvs we had the v1 and v2 but maybe the higher levels could become v3 or even ICBMs?

that would give the Allies the hurry up

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/23/2021 7:17:28 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors



obvs we had the v1 and v2 but maybe the higher levels could become v3 or even ICBMs?

that would give the Allies the hurry up


It wouldn't neccessarily have to be an ICBM. The Germans did experiment with submarine launched missiles.







Attachment (1)

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/24/2021 2:02:51 AM   
James Taylor

 

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Obviously the way to get rockets into game play is make them more effective. There are numerous ways including increasing NM in Germany's state and decreasing it in the application to the Allies.

There are possibilities for supply/strategic damage in addition to unit losses as their(rockets) effectiveness increases in the higher tech levels. Higher tech levels could actuate a DE to gain rocket units at reduced costs also.

What would really be cool is an enhancement to other weaponry, like Early Doors and Platoonist suggest. Rocket launched ordinance could be additionally effective making naval vessels and aircraft an ever increasing threat.



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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/24/2021 2:09:56 AM   
Christolos


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quote:

I agree, rockets fairly useless as it stands. A starting research of 1 would help,

I think if most of us (or enough of us) agree that Rockets are fairly useless as they are currently modeled, and enough of us feel they still belong in the game because they add interesting depth/historical value/consideration, then they should be given a bit of a head start at the beginning of the game to make it potentially attainable and worthwhile in terms of being able to upgrade them to V3s and even ICBMs.

Of course, and to keep in line with what could have been historically feasible, the ability to have longer range/more powerful V3s and/or even ICBMs, would have to adhere to a reasonable timeline such that it could only be achievable in games that go beyond early to mid 1945.

It would still be a matter of investing in them or not, but at least this way, the choice to do so or not, may seem a lot more evenly weighted in terms of the pros and cons.

C

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/24/2021 2:24:04 AM   
James Taylor

 

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Historically feasible: Sarin gas warhead?

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 2/24/2021 3:26:54 AM   
Pocus


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Don't go this way ...

Starting at level 1, yes, it is a gentle push in the right direction. And it will prevent the reselling.

I believe (semi related) that there should be an option that prevents reselling techs (except if the tech field is completed, but in this case, it would be automated, no point in forgetting about MPP sitting iddlessly)


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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 3/2/2021 7:06:10 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

How about if the rockets were to start at 1 level higher?


Yes and they need a range of three to reach London which is what they were fired at historically. Just built them in my MP game because I am winning and why not and they are useless cannot reach London...

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 3/2/2021 1:03:30 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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By default their range is limited, but the range will increase as you continue to develop Rocket research levels.

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 3/2/2021 1:45:44 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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@the Gang --- Seems like there's a consensus from players and Billy R. that we could "give the Germans" Rockets level #1 tech to start the game AND remove the tech chit for Rockets. This is a gentle push to help this unused Unit. The repercussions, the Axis is always selling that at half price for what 75 MMP will be missing from balance. Top Player's might want to ring in if this messes up competitive balance.

What if we give Germans Rockets +1 to start game AND a chit in Rockets, that too much?

@normalPlayers --- this suggestion seem reasonable?
@topPlayers --- doubt you'll use Rockets even with gentle push. The missing selloff MMPs screw up the game?
@historians --- this suggestion seem reasonable?
@Billy R & Hubert --- Thoughts, are you the guys who make a change?

< Message edited by ElvisJJonesRambo -- 3/2/2021 1:47:06 PM >


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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 3/2/2021 2:18:16 PM   
Pocus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

@the Gang --- Seems like there's a consensus from players and Billy R. that we could "give the Germans" Rockets level #1 tech to start the game AND remove the tech chit for Rockets. This is a gentle push to help this unused Unit. The repercussions, the Axis is always selling that at half price for what 75 MMP will be missing from balance. Top Player's might want to ring in if this messes up competitive balance.


Bored of this argument, pushed as a shield against any meaningful change. That's not an international chess tournament with one million dollar prize, you know. They will adapt.

EDIT: Here is another meaningful change that will favor the Axis, if you want balance. Bonus point, this goes toward historicity. Have the US able to only put one chit in Submarines, to represent the time necessary for them to have efficient subs. This should prevent seeing level 3 subs in 42 against Japan.


< Message edited by Pocus -- 3/2/2021 2:26:43 PM >


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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 3/2/2021 2:31:09 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Bored of this argument, pushed as a shield against any meaningful change. That's not an international chess tournament with one million dollar prize, you know. They will adapt.



Get bored. Have at it, you're bored.

Obviously you have not been informed. I'm the USA Ryder Cup, team Captain. We're in meetings discussing the best lineup to play the Euros for the 1 v 1 first round.

How about you & I dance? Say, $50 American. Crypto even better. I can host, we can showcase on Twitch.

Let me know,
-Captain America


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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 3/2/2021 5:03:47 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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Right now the research cost is 175, that's some serious cash that I could use to repair my tanks. Maybe 150 will be more reasonable? Still I'd rather spend that on my subs or air range research to win the battle of the Atlantic...just saying. So may be even 125? That may be inaccurate historically but for the sake of game balance, for anyone with a sane mind to invest in it.

I'd keep 1 chit invested in it at lvl 0, but give Germany a free Rocket early 44 with full tech. Less cash less motivation to sell and more to keep investing. But then, say I made it into level 4, so it can have a range of 6 and resource attack of 5, so I can hit the Cardiff mine, or use it near battle line to hurt enemy troop supply. That's still a cost of 500 (assuming 125 research cost and a free unit). Germany really need to maintain about a 1 to 2 ratio in MPP cost in anything against the Allies to win the game, and I just don't see the rockets can do 1000 MPP equivalent damage to the Allies over the course of the game. For it to be worthy, the research cost has to be really 100 or 75 per chit.

An alternative is to reduce the max research lvl to 2 (corresponds nicely to V1 and V2), with research cost at 150 or 175 per chit, single chit allowed, with each lvl give a 2 range and 2 resource attack improvement (this also helps with cost in upgrading the rockets). This in effect makes it the same as current lvl 4. For a total cost of 300 or 350, I think I'll give it a try in a real game. Too bad we can't limit the starting time of a research, but we can limit the rockets to be only purchasable in 44.



< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 3/2/2021 5:06:39 PM >

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RE: How about giving Rockets some steroids in the base ... - 3/2/2021 7:09:06 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

By default their range is limited, but the range will increase as you continue to develop Rocket research levels.


I see and if they are moved up one level as you suggest they will be range 3 then? Sounds like a reasonable change to me.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 3/2/2021 7:10:48 PM >


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