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1940 Battle of Pindus

 
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1940 Battle of Pindus - 2/18/2021 4:12:39 AM   
rhinobones

 

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Attached is a new scenario depicting the 1940 Battle of Pindus between Italian invaders and the Greek army. It is designed to be played solo as the Italians against the PO’s Greek defenders or as a PBEM game. Below is the description from the scenario briefing:

SCENARIO DESCRIPTION AND THEATER OPTIONS

October 28th, 1940 Italy launched an invasion into Greece along the Albanian frontier. The initial objective was to cut the North/South Greek supply line at the town of Metsovo. Cutting the line would deprive Greek forces South of Metsovo to the Ionian Sea of supply and enable passage of Italian forces deep into Greece. This event came to be known as the Battle of Pindus after the mountainous region in which it took place. However, poor military planning combined with stubborn Greek resistance and harsh weather doomed the invasion to failure.

This scenario models the basic Battle of Pindus and adds in elements of the Battle of Elaia–Kalamas which occurred immediately South of the Pindus action. To add spice, the historical objective of Metsovo is changed to a primary objective randomly selected from three towns along the North/South Greek supply line. There is also a secondary objective randomly selected from one of four towns along the invasion route. The Italian commander must capture and hold both the secondary and primary objectives in order to secure a major victory.

Turn 1 the Italian commander will be offered three Theater Options. One option each for the primary and secondary objectives. The commander is NOT to use the options until 1) turn 17 and 2) only if the objective(s) is occupied by Italian forces. Only then can the options be used, and the appropriate Victory Points awarded.



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< Message edited by rhinobones -- 6/7/2021 2:08:14 AM >


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Battle of Pindus Screen Shot - 2/18/2021 4:14:17 AM   
rhinobones

 

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Screen shot of the Italian forces.

Regards




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Post #: 2
RE: Battle of Pindus Screen Shot - 2/18/2021 7:49:37 AM   
Alan Sharif

 

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Wow, thank you. Downloading now.

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RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/18/2021 12:09:04 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


Turn 1 the Italian commander will be offered three Theater Options. One option each for the primary and secondary objectives. The commander is NOT to use the options until 1) turn 17 and 2) only if the objective(s) is occupied by Italian forces. Only then can the options be used, and the appropriate Victory Points awarded.


Sounds good. This ought to make the game pretty interesting for the Greek player (if there is one) as they will have to hedge their bets about what the Italian is trying to achieve. Conversely the Italian player will want to keep his motives hidden as long as possible. I think this kind of randomisation- which I know you've used in your other scenarios- is a really nice way of adding a lot of replayibility to the scenario and giving players a more realistic experience (even if there were good reasons for the Italians to pick the objective they did historically)

Presumably the theatre options are used so that the Italian player only knows what his objectives are, which is handy. However I'm unclear why the player would need to select the TO- what does this trigger, and couldn't it be done with a set of events with them all cancelled and only the relevant one enabled by the engine on turn 17?

Do you use Victory+ events for the objectives? If this is a big proportion of the total VP level I know this can cause the victory levels to be skewed. The alternative is to have VP locations in an off-map area and use events to set ownership of them (as you know, sadly one can't use events to change the objective value of a hex)

Do you also have events if the Italian captures his objective and then loses it afterwards? I appreciate this could get really complicated.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 2/18/2021 12:12:46 PM >


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RE: Battle of Pindus Screen Shot - 2/18/2021 3:23:46 PM   
rhinobones

 

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Hope you enjoy the scenario. Suggestions for improvements and fixes welcomed. An AAR would be really welcomed.

Regards


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Colin Wright:
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Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

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Post #: 5
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/18/2021 3:27:58 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

This ought to make the game pretty interesting for the Greek player


Presumably the theatre options are used so that the Italian player only knows what his objectives are, which is handy. However I'm unclear why the player would need to select the TO- what does this trigger


Do you also have events if the Italian captures his objective and then loses it afterwards?


The PO has been optimized for the Greek side. The Italian side is only programed for test purposes. This is why the Greek formation are battalions and the Italians are regiments. Giving the Greeks many small formations provides a lot of Objective Track options. Four tracks are used and they are also randomized.

Correct, the use of Theater Options hides the Italian objectives from the opponent. Of course, this only becomes important in the PBEM game. Selecting/activating the objective TOs triggers Victory 1+ awarding VPs to the Italians. In the briefing I’ve tried to make it clear that objective TOs are activated at game’s end and only for the objectives controlled by the Italians.

Capture-loss-capture, no. I expect that there are exotic event sequences which would give me the results I want, but at best my Evil Event skills are rudimentary. There are seven possible objectives, only two objectives are active (pay VPs) in any one game and the objectives are hidden from the Greeks. I know there are event wizards who could probably make this happen, but it is beyond my skill level. I’m open to improving events, if not this game, then a future game.

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
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Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

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Post #: 6
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/18/2021 6:37:07 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

The PO has been optimized for the Greek side. The Italian side is only programed for test purposes.


Sure- I always assume a PBEM (which you mentioned above was an option) as playing the PO gets boring really fast (I remember Brian Topp's Bagration 44 scenario where the Germans were able to more or less totally crush the Soviets despite giving the PO the +2 bias)

quote:

Correct, the use of Theater Options hides the Italian objectives from the opponent. Of course, this only becomes important in the PBEM game. Selecting/activating the objective TOs triggers Victory 1+ awarding VPs to the Italians. In the briefing I’ve tried to make it clear that objective TOs are activated at game’s end and only for the objectives controlled by the Italians.

Capture-loss-capture, no. I expect that there are exotic event sequences which would give me the results I want, but at best my Evil Event skills are rudimentary. There are seven possible objectives, only two objectives are active (pay VPs) in any one game and the objectives are hidden from the Greeks. I know there are event wizards who could probably make this happen, but it is beyond my skill level. I’m open to improving events, if not this game, then a future game.


Fair enough- the event engine is one of the more unforgiving parts of the editor. In practice the TO mechanic should work, since the player is only cheating themselves if vs. the PO, and it should be obvious to everyone if the Italian player cheats in this way.

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RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/19/2021 4:11:22 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Because the Occupy events don't recycle, you would do this:

Ev 1, 1 Occupies
Ev 2, by Ev 1, enable Ev 3
Ev 3, 2 Occupies
Ev 4, by Ev 3, enable Ev 1

I think that's right, because the Enable events do stay Active.

(in reply to golden delicious)
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RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/19/2021 5:55:40 AM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Because the Occupy events don't recycle, you would do this:

Ev 1, 1 Occupies
Ev 2, by Ev 1, enable Ev 3
Ev 3, 2 Occupies
Ev 4, by Ev 3, enable Ev 1

I think that's right, because the Enable events do stay Active.


Thank you. Looping events . . . they can be mysterious things.

That’s half the equation. Is it possible to turn the loops on with a TO so they only loop for the selected randomized objective?

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 9
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/19/2021 8:23:51 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


Thank you. Looping events . . . they can be mysterious things.

That’s half the equation. Is it possible to turn the loops on with a TO so they only loop for the selected randomized objective?

Regards



To continue the sequence above, it would look something like this

Ev 1, 1 Occupies
Ev 2, by Ev 1, enable Ev 3
Ev 3, 2 Occupies
Ev 4, by Ev 3, enable Ev 1
Ev 5, Turn 1, cancel event 1
Ev 6, Turn 1, cancel event 3
Ev 7, TO, activate 8
Ev 8, Turn 999, enable 1
Ev 9, by Ev 8, enable 3

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 10
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/19/2021 9:22:30 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:



Ev 1, 1 Occupies
Ev 2, by Ev 1, enable Ev 3
Ev 3, 2 Occupies
Ev 4, by Ev 3, enable Ev 1
Ev 5, Turn 1, cancel event 1
Ev 6, Turn 1, cancel event 3
Ev 7, TO, activate 8
Ev 8, Turn 999, enable 1
Ev 9, by Ev 8, enable 3


Thanks. I’ve taken your suggestion and put it into a format I can read. However, I’m trying to visualize what the events are trying to do but the editor language is more Greek to me than my Greek scenario. The sequence assumes that the hex to be occupied is initially controlled by Force 2. Right?

Events 5 thru 9 are really confusing. If you have time, please provide a brief explanation of the mechanics these events are performing.

Regards





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 11
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/20/2021 2:12:23 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Because the Occupy events don't recycle, you would do this:

Ev 1, 1 Occupies
Ev 2, by Ev 1, enable Ev 3
Ev 3, 2 Occupies
Ev 4, by Ev 3, enable Ev 1

I think that's right, because the Enable events do stay Active.


Appreciate the help. I did some experimentation and found that the hex occupied in Event #1 needs to start life as a hex in Force 2 possession. Otherwise, the loop triggers before Force 1 makes the occupation.

My solution is a bit different. The enable events re-enable their respective occupy events. Seems to work ok even though it might be unorthodox. This solution assumes that the target hex (in this case Metsovo 50,34) starts the scenario under control of Force 2.

Regards





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 12
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/20/2021 3:50:35 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Thanks. I’ve taken your suggestion and put it into a format I can read. However, I’m trying to visualize what the events are trying to do but the editor language is more Greek to me than my Greek scenario. The sequence assumes that the hex to be occupied is initially controlled by Force 2. Right?

Events 5 thru 9 are really confusing. If you have time, please provide a brief explanation of the mechanics these events are performing.

Regards


OK, well every event starts in an enabled state, which means that if the trigger is met, then that event will occur. The event is cancelled once the trigger is met, or you can cancel the event any time you like with another event.

In this case, we only want event 1 or event 3 to go off if the player takes the TO.

-So the first thing we do is cancel these two events using events 5 and 6, which effectively makes them dormant.
-Event 7 is your existing TO- the one which tells the Italian player only what his objective is.
-Event 8 then has a dummy trigger which will never be met, as it is activated instead by the TO. The effect enables event 1, meaning it will occur if the trigger is met (by the occupation of a given hex)
-Finally, Event 9 does the same thing for event 3, so the whole sequence is now enabled.

Events 5 through 9 only run once, but 1 through 4 can loop indefinitely.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/20/2021 4:44:25 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:


-Event 7 is your existing TO- the one which tells the Italian player only what his objective is.


Thanks.

The function of Event 7 is the key to understanding. As is, the convention of describing events using shorthand is a bit difficult for us beginners. The explanation cleared up the confusion.

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 14
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/20/2021 4:49:31 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


Thanks.

The function of Event 7 is the key to understanding. As is, the convention of describing events using shorthand is a bit difficult for us beginners. The explanation cleared up the confusion.

Regards



Sorry- in my defence I was tacking onto the previous poster's series so I followed his syntax.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 15
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 5:47:25 AM   
cathar1244

 

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RB,

In your example -- is "turn 1" the appropriate trigger for events 236 and 238 -- should they fire on "event activated" (referring to events 235 and 237) instead?

It seems what makes this kind of thing messy is the need to re-enable events, so changes can be tracked turn by turn.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Appreciate the help. I did some experimentation and found that the hex occupied in Event #1 needs to start life as a hex in Force 2 possession. Otherwise, the loop triggers before Force 1 makes the occupation.

My solution is a bit different. The enable events re-enable their respective occupy events. Seems to work ok even though it might be unorthodox. This solution assumes that the target hex (in this case Metsovo 50,34) starts the scenario under control of Force 2.

Regards








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RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 11:04:00 AM   
Telumar


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For those interested i still have the EvilEd document from the old TDG site archived on my WP site: https://thetoawbeachhead.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/evil-ed-toaw-3-4.pdf

There is also a short series of articles in which i dive deeper into event loops and other things:

https://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/news-from-the-front-struggling-with-the-evil-ed/
https://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com/2012/06/30/struggling-with-the-evil-ed-part-2/
https://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/struggling-with-the-evil-ed-part-3-masaf/

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RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 2:04:38 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

For those interested i still have the EvilEd document from the old TDG site archived on my WP site: https://thetoawbeachhead.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/evil-ed-toaw-3-4.pdf

There is also a short series of articles in which i dive deeper into event loops and other things:

https://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/news-from-the-front-struggling-with-the-evil-ed/
https://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com/2012/06/30/struggling-with-the-evil-ed-part-2/
https://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/struggling-with-the-evil-ed-part-3-masaf/


Thanks for the links. This is news I can use.

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

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Post #: 18
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 2:09:11 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

RB,

In your example -- is "turn 1" the appropriate trigger for events 236 and 238 -- should they fire on "event activated" (referring to events 235 and 237) instead?

It seems what makes this kind of thing messy is the need to re-enable events, so changes can be tracked turn by turn.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Appreciate the help. I did some experimentation and found that the hex occupied in Event #1 needs to start life as a hex in Force 2 possession. Otherwise, the loop triggers before Force 1 makes the occupation.

My solution is a bit different. The enable events re-enable their respective occupy events. Seems to work ok even though it might be unorthodox. This solution assumes that the target hex (in this case Metsovo 50,34) starts the scenario under control of Force 2.

Regards










Testing shows that it does work as intended. Why it works . . . my guess is that Force 2 initially owns the hex and the first event to trigger is Force 1 occupation.

I have tested where Force 2 owns the hex and the Force 2 occupation event happens first. This results in a false news flash that Force 2 has occupied its own hex.

Like the example provided by sPzAbt, this sequence requires four events to complete a 360 degree loop. Messy or not, four seems to be the minimum required.

Regards



_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 19
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 2:49:48 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Thanks Telumar.

Cheers

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Post #: 20
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 2:54:48 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Hi RB,

Yeah, the multiple event structure is definitely needed.

To walk this dog one step further (I'm trying to under the mechanics of how this works), assume:

Force 1 takes the objective -- victory points added to Force 1. Event enabled in case Force 2 re-takes the objective.

Force 2 takes the objective -- victory points subtracted from Force 1. Is the event in case Force 1 takes the objective again (and get the victory points), enabled again?

I've programmed before, but something about the logic functioning in the events engine is evading me.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/21/2021 2:55:18 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 3:30:28 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

. . . something about the logic functioning in the events engine is evading me.



Its a mystery to me too. Good thing there are some Event Wizards around to help us rookies.

Regards

_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 22
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 6:37:29 PM   
Telumar


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From: niflheim
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

. . . something about the logic functioning in the events engine is evading me.



Its a mystery to me too. Good thing there are some Event Wizards around to help us rookies.

Regards


A good part of the wizardry has to do with try and error. You may want to create sandbox scenarios for testing certain event sequences.

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Post #: 23
RE: 1940 Battle of Pindus Scenario - 2/21/2021 7:26:39 PM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

Is the event in case Force 1 takes the objective again (and get the victory points), enabled again?

Well yes, if you want the Events to always be Active, thereby triggering Events every time possession changes. Not all Events have to re-enabled, because some do stay Active. For examples see the doc's that Telu referenced above

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 24
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