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RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity

 
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RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 4:24:31 PM   
rico21

 

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MrsRangergame and GamerJoe, keep cool, please.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 31
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 4:34:13 PM   
Grognerd_INC


Posts: 1047
Joined: 11/17/2005
From: CA native, retired in FL
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I like monster game and yes they can get too intricate. I play em anyway.

Longest Day was about the most elegant monster game made - 7 to 8 pages of rules, it followed history magnificently.

I never played either Russian Campaign or Africa Corp, can't comment on them. Simplistic games are good as long as they simulate the campaign they are depicting. Why, because I play wargames as a history buff.

AH Russian Front was what I played- Same level as RC but a tad bit more complex.

PanzerArmyAfrika was a real simple game, I did not like it until I played it, it was a gem.

I've played WITP twice and WITP/AE only against the AI.
I do tend to like the monsters though.

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Formerly Grognerd, currently Doc Savage

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 32
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 4:50:15 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail.


The game at the pinnacle of micro detail is a game produced by SPI back in the day. Campaign for North Africa. I bought it. No words can describe the level of micro management. How much water was lost to evaporation and spillage due to poorly designed jerry cans.

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(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 33
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 5:08:43 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1124
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail.


The game at the pinnacle of micro detail is a game produced by SPI back in the day. Campaign for North Africa. I bought it. No words can describe the level of micro management. How much water was lost to evaporation and spillage due to poorly designed jerry cans.

Sheldon demonstrated on "The Big Bang Theory" that the game is playable. By him, at least

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(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 34
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 5:59:55 PM   
stuart3

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/4/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail.


The game at the pinnacle of micro detail is a game produced by SPI back in the day. Campaign for North Africa. I bought it. No words can describe the level of micro management. How much water was lost to evaporation and spillage due to poorly designed jerry cans.

Sheldon demonstrated on "The Big Bang Theory" that the game is playable. By him, at least


I was crazy enough to buy that game. I even read the rules and copied the forms players had to fill in, but I never had a big enough table to lay the boards out on and certainly not to devote to the game for the estimated seven years it took to play.

https://kotaku.com/the-notorious-board-game-that-takes-1500-hours-to-compl-1818510912

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 35
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 6:22:46 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Would someone clue in Ranger Joe that I am long since past caring a single iota what he has to say about ANYTHING I post.

He's a miserable little **** at best, and clearly trolling my posts just to interject yet another reason to be told to cut it out.

Seriously Joe, I've tried, I'm done trying. Piss off, stay out of my comments. I could NOT care less what your lot in life is like. You've made it plain, you can't just shut up and play nice.

I tried blocking you, clearly you can't block me. I'd gladly accept a month-long ban if I could be assured you had to spend it with me.

Is that clear enough Joe?

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to stuart3)
Post #: 36
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 6:53:50 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4152
Joined: 2/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Would someone clue in Ranger Joe that I am long since past caring a single iota what he has to say about ANYTHING I post.

He's a miserable little **** at best, and clearly trolling my posts just to interject yet another reason to be told to cut it out.

Seriously Joe, I've tried, I'm done trying. Piss off, stay out of my comments. I could NOT care less what your lot in life is like. You've made it plain, you can't just shut up and play nice.

I tried blocking you, clearly you can't block me. I'd gladly accept a month-long ban if I could be assured you had to spend it with me.

Is that clear enough Joe?


The green button has no expiration date. The trick is to keep it pressed. Otherwise this will just keep circling the toilet until both of you get the management's plunger.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 2/14/2021 6:56:00 PM >


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Post #: 37
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 7:08:32 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3715
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Fortunately, Hasborg doesn't own the history.

WW2 really happened. So did the war in the desert. You might not be able to call it Afrika Korps, but the terrain is what it is, the units that fought there are what they were, and Nato symbology isn't owned by Hasborg.

Slightly change the artwork. Slightly change the wording of the mechanics. Presto, it's just a game of actual history.

What made some of the past wargames great, was they weren't so overburdened by nauseating levels of micro-detail. And you didn't need to have a degree in history to enjoy playing them. You didn't need 3 weeks to master the rules. A turn didn't take all day long.

We have done it to ourselves willingly, and aggressively and knowingly. The main difference between Gary's War in the East and Russian Campaign, simplicity. Which War in the East sure as hell doesn't have.

Squad leader, I might have ended with Cross of Iron. It would have benefited from nation sets, no further complexity. New maps sets. New scenarios. But we just wouldn't leave it alone. It couldn't just be woods. It had to be more variations of the same modifier, but supposedly different looking terrain. After all, we need to know if it is an apple orchard, or a stand of Christmas trees eh.

I don't care what's loaded on each and every fricking ship in the Pacific. I bought War in the Pacific before I realized how absolutely anal the experience was going to be. I don't want to follow a pilot's training. I want a carrier, I don't want to watch it get built. Just because our computers can handle all the details, doesn't mean I really even want it to. Some say they do. I think they're weird (I would rather use more accurate language, but I won't).

One of my favourite Russian front games is the board game Russian Front (I guess claiming a name first has it's advantages). Modest sized board.
One game I thought I wanted, but failed to purchase, and I'm glad of it, was Fire in the East. a 6x8 foot map. Who the bloody hell thought that was a good idea? Did they even sell enough copies to make it worth making it?

A perfect wargame, a perfect any game is playable in a single sitting. Not several months, several hours.
A perfect wargame, is such, you can play it, and several other designs as well, within a month. It doesn't demand you faithfully play it and never have the time for anything else.

Today, people simply have no attention span worth a damn. In fact, a FB post this long won't get read.
People want it now now now. Read rules, you're kidding, right?
It isn't a young people thing, adults are no better.

And we have to debate why wargaming is not doing so well?
It's obvious.


I'm weird then according to your post. Actually, you had a better word for me but didn't use it. I'm not offended. However, a lot of people in these very forums are addicted to WitP-AE. I play it occasionally. I like it a lot, but I also like WarPlan which is much faster. I like them both and I'm glad that I have the option to play either. If a person thinks that WitP is way too involved, they have the choice for hundreds of other games less complicated. I'm one of those weird gamers that love micromanagement, the more the better. And if it gets more so because my PC can do more, GREAT!

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 38
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 7:17:23 PM   
DeepBlack


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Joined: 9/13/2020
Status: offline
Did anyone ever play by snail mail
using the newspaper stock market as a random die
roll generator?

A Panzerblitz scenario could take
months to finish. In fact, I always lost and
conceded to avoid the torture of a very looooong
losing experience.

Having to keep a board map in cryogenic
stasis for long periods, free of thunderstorm drafts or marauding kittens
was also a technical challenge.

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take them off. Leave them on!


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Post #: 39
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 7:32:04 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 10881
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack

Did anyone ever play by snail mail
using the newspaper stock market as a random die
roll generator?

A Panzerblitz scenario could take
months to finish. In fact, I always lost and
conceded to avoid the torture of a very looooong
losing experience.

Having to keep a board map in cryogenic
stasis for long periods, free of thunderstorm drafts or marauding kittens
was also a technical challenge.


Yes, I have PBMed. PBEM is a lot faster and easier to reset the game board with all of the units and settings involved.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to DeepBlack)
Post #: 40
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 7:39:56 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3715
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack

Did anyone ever play by snail mail
using the newspaper stock market as a random die
roll generator?

A Panzerblitz scenario could take
months to finish. In fact, I always lost and
conceded to avoid the torture of a very looooong
losing experience.

Having to keep a board map in cryogenic
stasis for long periods, free of thunderstorm drafts or marauding kittens
was also a technical challenge.


Yes, I have PBMed. PBEM is a lot faster and easier to reset the game board with all of the units and settings involved.


Wasn't DB talking about snail mail... mailing a disk through the mail for turns? I thought he was being funny asking that. I can't imagine how long turns would take then!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 41
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 8:03:02 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 10881
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack

Did anyone ever play by snail mail
using the newspaper stock market as a random die
roll generator?

A Panzerblitz scenario could take
months to finish. In fact, I always lost and
conceded to avoid the torture of a very looooong
losing experience.

Having to keep a board map in cryogenic
stasis for long periods, free of thunderstorm drafts or marauding kittens
was also a technical challenge.


Yes, I have PBMed. PBEM is a lot faster and easier to reset the game board with all of the units and settings involved.


Wasn't DB talking about snail mail... mailing a disk through the mail for turns? I thought he was being funny asking that. I can't imagine how long turns would take then!


You have a paper sheet with all of the units. You place them on a map. You then resolve the combats. You then move your units. You then write down where all of the units are. You then write down all of your combats with the odds noted plus the stock that is picked for each combat, preferably one with a high number of shares sold with the date that is picked for the combat determination. Then wait for your opponent to do his turn. The game is then left set up for the cat gods to play with or you put it up. For the next turn, start all over.

edit: This is for a board game with counters.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 2/14/2021 8:06:21 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 42
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/14/2021 8:26:42 PM   
berto


Posts: 20412
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack

Did anyone ever play by snail mail
using the newspaper stock market as a random die
roll generator?

Yes!

_____________________________


(in reply to DeepBlack)
Post #: 43
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/15/2021 1:25:02 AM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1608
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Would someone clue in Ranger Joe that I am long since past caring a single iota what he has to say about ANYTHING I post.

He's a miserable little **** at best, and clearly trolling my posts just to interject yet another reason to be told to cut it out.

Seriously Joe, I've tried, I'm done trying. Piss off, stay out of my comments. I could NOT care less what your lot in life is like. You've made it plain, you can't just shut up and play nice.

I tried blocking you, clearly you can't block me. I'd gladly accept a month-long ban if I could be assured you had to spend it with me.

Is that clear enough Joe?


The green button has no expiration date. The trick is to keep it pressed. Otherwise this will just keep circling the toilet until both of you get the management's plunger.


If management doesn't speak to him about it in ways that matter, I can assure you, he will experience what a woman's wrath looks like. I'm sure as hell not interested in him playing the victim game with me.
This forum is full of a lot of great men. I'm on record as having said so. I simply won't tolerate one jack ass thinking he's beyond touch. I come here to have discussions about many things, including wargames. I'm not interested in putting up with his not remotely acceptable snide remarks which he will claim were entirely within the rules. To claim his behaviour is 'acceptable' is either outright denial or an affront to the forums management.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 44
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/15/2021 3:29:51 AM   
operating


Posts: 3009
Joined: 1/19/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Would someone clue in Ranger Joe that I am long since past caring a single iota what he has to say about ANYTHING I post.

He's a miserable little **** at best, and clearly trolling my posts just to interject yet another reason to be told to cut it out.

Seriously Joe, I've tried, I'm done trying. Piss off, stay out of my comments. I could NOT care less what your lot in life is like. You've made it plain, you can't just shut up and play nice.

I tried blocking you, clearly you can't block me. I'd gladly accept a month-long ban if I could be assured you had to spend it with me.

Is that clear enough Joe?


The green button has no expiration date. The trick is to keep it pressed. Otherwise this will just keep circling the toilet until both of you get the management's plunger.


If management doesn't speak to him about it in ways that matter, I can assure you, he will experience what a woman's wrath looks like. I'm sure as hell not interested in him playing the victim game with me.
This forum is full of a lot of great men. I'm on record as having said so. I simply won't tolerate one jack ass thinking he's beyond touch. I come here to have discussions about many things, including wargames. I'm not interested in putting up with his not remotely acceptable snide remarks which he will claim were entirely within the rules. To claim his behaviour is 'acceptable' is either outright denial or an affront to the forums management.

Thank you for speaking to the truth..

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 45
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/15/2021 3:41:25 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4152
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Would someone clue in Ranger Joe that I am long since past caring a single iota what he has to say about ANYTHING I post.

He's a miserable little **** at best, and clearly trolling my posts just to interject yet another reason to be told to cut it out.

Seriously Joe, I've tried, I'm done trying. Piss off, stay out of my comments. I could NOT care less what your lot in life is like. You've made it plain, you can't just shut up and play nice.

I tried blocking you, clearly you can't block me. I'd gladly accept a month-long ban if I could be assured you had to spend it with me.

Is that clear enough Joe?


The green button has no expiration date. The trick is to keep it pressed. Otherwise this will just keep circling the toilet until both of you get the management's plunger.


If management doesn't speak to him about it in ways that matter, I can assure you, he will experience what a woman's wrath looks like. I'm sure as hell not interested in him playing the victim game with me.
This forum is full of a lot of great men. I'm on record as having said so. I simply won't tolerate one jack ass thinking he's beyond touch. I come here to have discussions about many things, including wargames. I'm not interested in putting up with his not remotely acceptable snide remarks which he will claim were entirely within the rules. To claim his behaviour is 'acceptable' is either outright denial or an affront to the forums management.


Well, wrath can get you in more trouble. There is very little that you can do about people like that on a forum that you don't own or moderate. You only really have two options. Green button or vacate. The former, you'll never have to read anything he types. The latter, that would cut off your nose to spite your face.

I've green buttoned people. It works.

_____________________________


(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 46
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/15/2021 4:45:49 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9340
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
No one has mentioned Development issues. We used to have companies like Avalon Hill that would develop games. Now we have mostly individuals developing titles on their own and generally in a part time capacity. They develop within the vacuum of their own minds and create 'games' that are rushed into release unfinished and requiring 'patches'. Consequently, 'new' players attracted to the genre are frequently discouraged by inferior product and turn to other past times like cartoon first person shooter or multi-player asset management games that have larger development groups.

The result is that current Historical Simulations only attract die-hard fans that accept these shortcomings, and in some cases back them whole-heartedly.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 47
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/15/2021 1:31:35 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10626
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
What makes you think they have? GMT and say Compass Games seem to be doing well and releasing a constant stream of new games. Maybe the dwindling connection to WW2 relatives has had an effect, but looking at all the companies releasing a constant stream of new titles I'm not certain why others see some sort of plummeting interest. With the huge rise in boardgame popularity I'm sure this has had a positive effect on board wargame sales.

_____________________________


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Post #: 48
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/15/2021 2:46:22 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 35941
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
Not sure what's going on here, but cut it out. Before I start passing out bans I'd like to understand, because this thread frankly gives me no clue. MrsWargamer, RangerJoe, please PM me or e-mail me and explain.

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(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 49
RE: Six reasons why wargames have plummeted in popularity - 2/15/2021 4:20:27 PM   
Mobeer


Posts: 641
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline
I find it disappointing that as computers have become more powerful, wargames just seem to have added far more complexity. I suspect those who have been around the longest are most obsessed with details and shout the loudest. Unfortunately we end with unnecessary detail that bog games down.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 50
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